81 replies to this topic

[Stummer_Schrei]

some people have time some people have money. so it is fair

also it whould be pay to win if you are able to buy weapons with real money, which free players cant get, this is not the case here (but many other stated that befor me here anyway)

i think the only thing u can get with only real money is painting and xp/credit boosters. you can earn all other things with ingame time. and if you ask me this is absolutly ok. it is ok if you can see if someone payed to support the developers/ is a fan and has a unique looking mech which is not stronger than any other available mech.

If i pay for the game, then i will use it for skinns etc. why should i pay for something, i can get without money... i have time

Edited by Stummer_Schrei, October 29 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[Trolled]

Stummer_Schrei, on October 28 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

some people have time some people have money. so it is fair

I'm pretty sure neither you nor anyone has the time or patience to grind 10000 HP on a vanilla assault in order to get the machine you want, and another 10k for items and internals. Not with the current rates, at least. Play a couple matches with that without a booster, then do the math yourself and you'll see where this is going.
A pay to progress system where progression is unrealistically inflated is de facto pay to win, and a dishonest one while at it because it tricks free players into becoming cannon fodder for the cash cows with promises of balance.

tl;dr: lower those prices or the game will crash and burn within less than a year

[Avlaen]

Snoof, on October 24 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

GunsnButter, on October 24 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

The current system simply lets you spend real life money instead of having to grind out what you want.

..... That IS the definition of Pay 2 Win dude, facepalmed pretty badly

i would say pay to win is where buying stuff gets you an advantage Free players cant get, this isnt the cash paying just allows you to skip ahead/ progress faster but a fully upgraded mech either by ingame currency or real money is the same power. thats not pay to win.

[CakeBandit]

This thread happens in every game these days. Let's get everyone on the same page with some EDUCATIONAL VIDEO.

It really does address a lot of the complaints we get in threads like these. It's also written by people who are consultants/designers/artists in the industry.

Edited by CakeBandit, October 29 2012 - 03:10 AM.

[FenixStryk]

I don't think Hawken is Pay2Win yet, but the grind is extremely noticeable if you measure the current income rates.

If you want to hop into a new chassis and fully kit it out:
-9200 for the chassis.
-9300 (1550 x 6) for internals and items.
-3750 for a new alternate primary.
The total_ A hefty 22,250 Hawken Points.

Let's compare that to a free player's ideal income rate:
If a free player is King Fuzzy Bunny in TDM, he's earning 72 Hawken Points every 17 minutes.
22,250 / 72 comes out to 309.02777~, read: he has to win 310 matches to earn enough HP for his personal mech.

So, how long does it take to complete 310 TDM matches_
[310 matches x 17 minutes = 5,270 minutes / 60 = 87.8333~ hours, or] 88 hours of play time.

If Hawken was a full-time 9-to-5 job, it would take free employees 11 days to earn their first min/maxed mech.

The above of course does not take into account players that aren't pubstomp gods,
or players that want to also upgrade their starter mech,
or players that waste Hawken Points experimenting.


I'm not here to tell you if that's Pay2Win or not. I'm just giving you the numbers.

[poloscar42]

Aside from current grind balance issues I see no problem with the F2P model that Hawken will be using. I am with those against it at the moment that in an 'ideal' world you would only pay for cosmetics and XP buffs. Unfortunately we are not living in that ideal world and I cannot see a F2P model with just cosmetics available for real money ever making itself enough money to survive.

Hawken and every F2P game needs to sell as much as they can. Fortunately for us most companies trying to make a F2P model work for them allow you to gain everything that a paying player can buy through just playing the game at the cost of extra time put in. My real question is what is the issue with that_ If you enjoy the game enough you will want to play it a lot anyway, you'll probably grind enough to have what a paying player has in not too much time (If the HP system gets man handled a bit more). Hawken's model for F2P is not outstanding or perfect. It is fairly standard. The good news is that standard is not unfair on the player, or rather will not be if HP are fixed.

Just on the topic of Hawken points I would honestly suggest getting 4x the current amount per game. Really it should be no more than 20 hours of play to max out a mech. 20 hours is one hell of a lot of time to spend on something. It is 1/6th of a week near enough. I know that many people will happily put that amount of time in but that is still fairly steep. I am sure that the Devs are reading a lot in to the F2P model and HP things all of the time as at the end of the day that is the balance that will get them some money to live off of in this case.

Just some of my own thoughts,

Oscar.

[Cypherhalo]

Eh, the bonuses from buying parts help but I don't think they make such a huge difference that it throws this game into Pay2Win territory, especially as you can acquire all the same equipment with Hawken Points.  My gripe is that Hawken Points build up way too slowly considering how expensive the parts are (and I even bought the boost).  Either rise the HP rate or lower the prices, one or the other.

[ShinyShark]

Deuy, on October 24 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

What Gridian said.  Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage over those who do not.  For example, an unbalanced gun that can only be bought and not earned any other way.

Getting stuff faster by paying shouldn't be a big deal because in Hawken skill is king (and teammates).  I think anyone that played the Alpha probably agrees.  If you can't beat a whiny kid who's mom bought him everything in Hawken, he's probably better than you at the game

I totally agree with this. From what i've played of the game so far your weapons don't matter as much without skill with them or team support. You easily be overwhelmed with any weapon without those 2 things.

[D20Face]

I'm just going to link my opinion in all these threads because they're all the same.

Lazy_ Yes.

[FluxX]

Trolled, on October 29 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Stummer_Schrei, on October 28 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

some people have time some people have money. so it is fair

I'm pretty sure neither you nor anyone has the time or patience to grind 10000 HP on a vanilla assault in order to get the machine you want, and another 10k for items and internals. Not with the current rates, at least. Play a couple matches with that without a booster, then do the math yourself and you'll see where this is going.
A pay to progress system where progression is unrealistically inflated is de facto pay to win, and a dishonest one while at it because it tricks free players into becoming cannon fodder for the cash cows with promises of balance.

tl;dr: lower those prices or the game will crash and burn within less than a year

Yep. Make at "free to trial" if your doing that route, not F2P. But who are we kidding_ It would take a mountain of effort to hold out when the guy with the cheque comes over and says "Do you want to change the game system to generate more cash, or be more fun/balanced/fair to play_"
I hope the Devs have the honesty in them. I really do, because the game plays so well so far. I'd hate to see their work eaten up by numbercrunchers/coin counters.

[The_Silencer]

Disclaimer: Wrong thread!

Two approaches on your suggestions:

First, everything we've seen in alphas and/or betas is subject to change. Simply as that.

Second: I'll post on matchmaking in brief so we can discuss on that in (virtually yet) there.

Third: Check this related thread I made, please.

Edited by The_Silencer, November 15 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[Garuda]

Moderators, I think this thread has inflated far enough.
3 pages worth of counter-arguments without the "opening poster" countering back shows that the OP has conceded in his point being in false.

P.S. The moderator that responded is right. Paraphrasing him: "If a kid, that used money to purchase his parts, is unbeatable against you, then you must simply have a lack of skill"

Have a great day gents!
Garuda Out.

[KyRoS]

I really don't consider this game P2W. No doubt that people who buy items for their mechs will have an early advantage, but you can get everything through playing. Hopefully a good matchmaking sytem will be in place that is separated from the server browswer so that lvl 20's aren't up against level 1's unless they both decide to play through the server browswer. The offensive/defensive/function items defintiely provide a boost, but it's not insurmountable. The devs need to make money though and the camo skins and stuff don't seem all that appealing to me to be quite honest. Maybe as there are more cool visual upgrades, a lot of people will buy those to help support the game.

As time goes on, and people play more and more, the advantage that people who pay will become less and less noticeable. My biggest concern is that Hawken Credits are accrued at a pretty abyssmal rate right now. It reminds me a lot of Leage of Legends monetary system, although in LoL, you can't buy runes, which are similar to the offensive/defensive/functional items in terms of the boosts they provide. There is no doubt that skill can overcome lack of these items, but in the early stages of release, there will be an advantage for those who shell out money. I also consider P2Win that you can buy items with real money that you can't get through the game or in a realistic manner. Considering you get about 80 or so HC's for a loss and around a 100 for a win, then factor in that all the O/D/F items are 1550 HC's if I remember correctly, You are looking at about 15-20 games per upgrade. Seeing as how there are 6 slots, fully decking out a mech with no cash is going to take you 100-120+ games or so and that's quite a bit.

I'd like to see HC accrual rate increased, or the prices of O/D/F slots decreased (mech costs are fine as buying more mechs will be a main source of income for the game). So while I don't consider the game P2W, there is a definitely advantage, particuarly in the early game life cycle, for those who chose to pay cash. I'm probably going to spend $30-60, depending on what the packages offer, but wouldn't really have a problem if the six O/D/F slots were only avaiable via HC's, but would like to see the cost go down a bit, to say around 1000.

[Phaaze]

sigh...

[SGRock]

Somebody please lock this mess.......

And please stop the necroposting.....

[Snoof]

Garuda, on November 15 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Moderators, I think this thread has inflated far enough.
3 pages worth of counter-arguments without the "opening poster" countering back shows that the OP has conceded in his point being in false.

P.S. The moderator that responded is right. Paraphrasing him: "If a kid, that used money to purchase his parts, is unbeatable against you, then you must simply have a lack of skill"

Have a great day gents!
Garuda Out.

thats your opinion

[Garuda]

Deuy, on October 24 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

Snoof, on October 24 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Like you said "Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage of those who do not" So if i entered the game at the start having spent no money on parts just to face off against a player who HAS paid for his parts wouldnt that be pay 2 win_ Naturally those parts will give him/her an advantage right_ Bit of contradiction there aye

I hear what you're saying, but for me the keyword here is "unfair".  

Do you consider someone who spent 2 weeks grinding to unlock items to have an "unfair" advantage over someone who just started the game and has nothing_  I don't, because the first person invested something (their time) into unlocking the items, and the new person has the potential to unlock the exact same things given the same investment.  

Similarly, I don't really think someone who invests a different way (with money) has any unfair advantage over the new person that has invested nothing at all.  They paid to get it faster, but what they got was the same thing a non-paying player can get, and the potential for any advantages are the same for all players across the board.

Snoof, on November 15 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Garuda, on November 15 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Moderators, I think this thread has inflated far enough.
3 pages worth of counter-arguments without the "opening poster" countering back shows that the OP has conceded in his point being in false.

P.S. The moderator that responded is right. Paraphrasing him: "If a kid, that used money to purchase his parts, is unbeatable against you, then you must simply have a lack of skill"

Have a great day gents!
Garuda Out.

thats your opinion

And Duey's opinion as well. Is that all you are going to say_ No other form of an actual response_

[Snoof]

im sorry but i do not reply to trash talk, you are simply repeating what others have said before you with nothing of benefit to anyone, im trying to save some pro gamer's time by eliminating children but it seems that people would much rather pay 20 bux instead of working for what theyre worth, then again those who pay arent worth a cent *spits on the floor*

[SmaCkexe]

Snoof, on October 24 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

GunsnButter, on October 24 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

The current system simply lets you spend real life money instead of having to grind out what you want.

..... That IS the definition of Pay 2 Win dude, facepalmed pretty badly

So because I work 10 hours at a job and 4 hours at home on a start up business I should be penalized_  This is not the definition of pay to win.  The current items you can buy can also be purchased with in game currency.  There is no distinct advantage to purchasing the internal upgrades either.  I have dominated many a server with a low level mech that lacks Internal Upgrades.  It is very clear to me that Meteor is not making it pay to win and that they are simply incorporating a way for people who do not have 10 hours a day to play to be able to keep up with those people do play hours upon hours a day.  If they ever get to the point where you can only purchase game changing items with Meteor points ... then they will have become Pay to Win.

[Holem]

Since the announcement of the packages, I've been lurking the forums because this F2P model really concerns me. Before I delve into the reasoning, I have to address a few comments just on this thread: Stop with asking mods to lock this thread, I did a google search and forum search and there's always someone telling others to search or link to another thread about this issue. There will always be fanboys that defend the company all the way until they close their doors and then wonder WTF happened. If you truely like the game, help the devs address the issue instead of criticizing people that could end up spending hundreds/thousands of dollars in this game. I'm posting because I WANT this game to succeed (Since I'm all for a US based company, I have friends that develop games, and I like this game better than the successful TF2 due to it being mechs.)

The other thing people don't realize with their CC spouting pay for progress (not really a category) is that what makes successful game is the players that do NOT pay a dime. They invest time into the game and thus keep coming back and thus populate the servers which forms groups, which brings in the paying players like you and I. I've "paid" into many other games and have seen many close down due to lack of players beyond the core group that eventually "burn out". With the current model, Hawken has a flawed system that, imho, won't retain players. Pay for convience like pay to play or pay to win, since the people that played have not invested anything that makes them want to return.

Right now, there is no "goal" for players and EVERYTHING can be bought with money except for the skill tree bonus. Yes a skilled FPS player can use the basic mech and destroy others, he also, again, have no vested interested since everyone suck. For those of us less skilled and with limited time, we'll walk away since we aren't having fun. Right now, you can't take the basic free chassis and keep up since you are thrown into the fray with higher level players. You can't think of starting with a stock unit if you aren't skilled since you'll face skilled players with level 10,15, 20 players. On top of that, I've been in quite a few games last night that had players leave and it was 4-5 on 1-2 and no one wanted to join the "for sure" losing side since you get less xp/HC.

Right now, I use the $15/month as a guide to see if it's worth me spending money in the game. As of right now, spending $60 bucks nets you only 7 days of bonuses versus MWO and WoT that gives you 30 days. Yes you get 100% bonus versus 50% BUT I'll only feel obligated to play 7 days instead of 30 to "get my money's worth." You don't know of how many times I hear people play because of this. Then when the crack, I mean bonuses ends, it sucks to make less money/xp and you end up paying for another 30days.

I've plopped down a lot of money in the other games and I really enjoy Hawken but not enough to even get any of the bundles since I've been here before with other failed F2P mech games that has closed down with this exact same model. Sure you can grind up the ingame money but most opt to "buy it" and players stopped playing because it wasn't worth it. Using my alliance, clan, guild from other games as a small sample size, Hawken is fun but there's nothing that lets them feel like they want to keep coming back.

tl;dr Hawken's current model is similiar to two previous mech games that had a lot of potential but folded due to the high barrier to HP so few non-paying players played.