81 replies to this topic

[Naughtydread]

For the love of GOD please no pay to win PLEASE!!!!!

I would be more than happy to buy this game for $60.00.

Edited by Naughtydread, October 26 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Dij114]

Came here simply to agree and express my concern.

[Xenogeist]

I don't have a problem with Meteor points being used to purchase things that can be obtained with Hawken points.

The current problem seems to be the rate of Hawken point accumulation which is abysmal.  I know the devs are probably just experimenting with this right now but I wanted to give my feedback that this current pricing system is NOT FUN.  So far I've played 4 games and I've averaged about 20 hawken points a game (all losses but that is still a terribly low number).  When you consider that purchasing a mech costs 9200 hawken points that comes out to about 460 games just to purchase one mech.  Of course after that you'll have to gear it up with items and internal parts.  The amount of time I would need to acquire new mechs makes me not want to bother with it at all.

[treesauce]

LOL

Snoof, on October 24 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

one thing that i can tell from this is that if you keep it the way it is you (Meteor Entertainment) will lose a HUGE playerbase to the whole Pay 2 Win thing

I understand why you might feel this way, but the business model of free-to-plays are all built around that concept. On the other hand, would you really rather pay 45-60 bucks for a pc game and still have to unlock gear_ Normal games are overpriced and slowly being phased out by free-to-plays. I understand the gratification of grinding away and getting those magnum sniper rounds for Bf3, but thats a different business model entirely. You have to realize that its a game industry... Game industry... Industry... They aim for whatever makes more money.

I don't mind starting off with a simple mech and a few guns. The assault class rocks pretty hard if you play it right. I'll admit that things like the Slug Gun and Heat Gun are pretty nice to have, but lets be real. You can buy most of the things you really 'need' for less than 45-60 bucks bro. Which is what less than what you'd pay for a game anyway... So fuzzy bunny it, buy it all or level up. Who cares_ The up side of buying is that even if you spend 10 dollars and set the game down forever you will have technically made anywhere from 35-50 bucks because the game was free to begin with.


TANGENT:

The fairest free-to-play I've seen is most likely DotA 2, as all the heroes are unlocked (as of right now anyway, although they did mention in a press release that they don't support buying heroes because it ruins the experience). No more paying for new heroes like in LoL and HoN. However, DotA 2 has tons of cosmetic items that cost real money -- like 15 or 16 bucks for Dragon Knight mythic set. To top it off, most of the items are fan made and submitted via the workshop, so valve doesn't need to put much effort into these pricey commodities.

TANGENT END:

I can rant on about how awesome free to play is for hours man; tangents aside, you're missing the point of the free to play model and I think it would do you some good to revise you attitude towards it. You might find you enjoy it more if you just tell yourself you technically made money off the game....technically, whatever helps you sleep at night.

[ReachH]

Naughtydread, on October 26 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

For the love of GOD please no pay to win PLEASE!!!!!

I would be more than happy to buy this game for $60.00.

Or just pay $10 to kit out your build quickly and make use of all your beta experience. Being whiny on principle is like the whiny kid with the mom's CC growing up into a whiny manchild.

[NC37]

Agreed, I posted about this in Alpha and submitted it via the questionaire. I loved the fact it wasn't being bred for P2W in Alpha. But the changes in Beta now suggest it will be P2W. If that happens I can tell you I honestly will never support it financially. I'll maybe play it from time to time but I've got many other games that I actually own which I can spend more time on.

[ReachH]

I really feel like people are so fixated on the LEVEL UP, they are forgetting that there will be clans and competition to sink your teeth into. If you have to grind it out to be competitive  then you can - otherwise you can save some time and pay for an amazing game that shouldn't even be free to begin with. Otherwise just wait for the next Final Fantasy - I hear Square Enix just licensed the Unreal 4 engine. We're talking mega-realistic anime hair here.

[SweetTooth]

Well Pay2win means that you have an unfair edge or advantage over free2play players by paying money.

That's not the case because you -can- buy everything with hawken points which is earned through victories in matches.

Depending on how many hawken points it takes, then it might make sense, but as it stands your statement is fallacious. This game is not quite pay to win. If someone wants to blow their money on something it only takes 1-25 won matches to buy, then let a fool soon part with their money.

edit: For a real pay2win game, please see modern day Combat Arms and their new "Special Classes" that can heal on the battlefield and eat bullets like candy on halloween.

Edited by SweetTooth, October 27 2012 - 01:35 AM.

[MECHANZIE]

I don't think i'd mind if it took 10 days to earn the hawken points to buy an additional mech if you can get about 600-1000 points per day. you're also given 4000 odd meteor points to get a few other things with to start with so nobodies really starting from nothing.

i got about 600 points over 6 hours of play, which is almost half of what it would take to buy some of the upgrades so surely it wouldnt take all that long if you bought yourself a mech and upp'd it over a couple of days play. it will all depend on how hawken points are weighed against meteor points and how long it takes to earn them.

this is all very dependent on testing. my keyword for all this is 'beta'.

[mechpilot9775]

Delete this thread

[Nephtaline]

Just like any game you need time to get an item, if you're hurry, use your credit card. Otherwise play it like a normal game.
Close this thread plox.

[Flappers]

From what I have seen, this game is pay for convenience.

Although, there is a slight problem with this model in this particular game.

Since ranking up and gaining levels does give you an advantage over another lower level player, then I think XP boosts should be looked at, or even available for in game currency. As most other shooters, ranking up does not give you an advantage, so they can get away with that sort of model.

Either allow XP boosting with in game currency, or remove it from the game to prevent pay to win issues.

FYI @ OP
Tribes Ascend is not pay to win, that is purely paying for convenience.
There is no advantage to paying customers in that game.

Although, it can't be said for this game, as earning in game credits is ridonkulously slow, and ranking up does give you an advantage.

[Xenogeist]

Please stop with the 'close this thread' because there are people who disagree with you.

I think Digimaul said it best in this topic.  The current pay model is 'pay or suffer'.  Like it or not, as a free to play game there is going to be a lot of people who will want to play without putting a dime into it.  The current hawken point price wall will not only drive those people away it will also drive away those who are willing to spend money but in smaller amounts.  I could justify to myself spending a few bucks here or there for customizations but if I'm required to pay $10 for each mech or to buy XP and HP boosts then that isn't a game I will want to support.  There are other fish in the sea.

[P4FJunkie]

I've been reading through a lot of the posts on this topic and frankly, I've gotta agree with treesauce the most.

It's so easy to cry about somebody putting in 10 dollars and being boss on a free to play game - yet we still go out there and buy some titles that are 40-60 dollars. Sometimes that isn't good enough so we feel we absolutely need a special edition for 100+.

Besides, it will be games like this that will run the market for large titles later on. SOE tried to do it, Funcom done it well, EA Games does it, Blizzard and Activision does it. You don't realize how much money is made off of this system. They are marketed as free to play so we can try them out before making any decisions to buy anything for them.
Would you rather spend 20-40 dollars to buy a game produced by a no-name company, or try it for free and decide to put ten dollars in later_

EDIT: Would sacrificing smoking or drinking, soda, going out to eat, buying things you don't need hurt_

Edited by P4FJunkie, October 27 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Clumsyninja23]

Saunders, on October 27 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

I can't go into detail, but overall you can expect quite a number of changes to EVERYTHING in the game, including the way leveling your mechs and how gaining HP (Hawken Points) works.

The system that is in place where you gain HP so slowly is going to change, so instead of spending hours upon hours to get something, it'll take less time. So, there won't be as big a discrepancy as it would be now with free players and paying players. Since you can get everything in the game for in game money (which there will be more of now), it isn't a pay2win game. If it was the same amount of time as it would be now, it might. But since these things will change, have no worries. You'll be able to catch up to the payer players a lot faster.

[beastlybeast]

I can say from experience even with an entire skill tree filled out it is possible to still suck at the game. In the alpha I had my sharpshooter with all the offense tree filled out and it was boss, but I still struggled. You can't pay to win, but you can pay to maybe get above average.

[SlaVeD]

League of Legends is pay2win, though much less than many others. If you start out as a new, you should have more or less equal footing against someone who has played the game for a longer time, given the skill being more or less the same. The whole argument about runes being buyable with ingame cash only is bogus, since if you're locking yourself out of champions you're not going to know well enough when it comes to playing against them, let alone having all the options at hand when you're trying to set a lineup.

Tribes:Ascend ended up being more or less pay to win as well. There were many weapons which were conveniently overpowered at release, and additional weapons took more or less roughly 130 games to attain. You could maybe, just maybe, unlock one class at the game by playing it solo, without booster packs, and without having played the game all the way through from beta to the date.

I've also seen stuff like Ghost Recon online, let's just say that it's a good showcase of what not to do. Temporary bullet bonuses, inventory slots, weapon upgrades and special ability upgrades.

The only game I've seen so far using the most non-Pay2Win approach into the game is Dota 2. There you only have cosmetics, tournament tickets and some other features (maybe upcoming) to pay for. Ingame you're equal to an enemy, your spells deal the same damage, you can choose from the same lineup of heroes etc.

I would regard many games as pay2win, including TF2. Enforcer and many other weapons took so long to get nerfed that there is really nothing to explain it from the developer's side apart from excuses. Some of the flaws in the game are glaringly obvious from "be on an even ground" -perspective, yet they either take ages to fix. However, as TF2 is a casual game and there the weapons are mostly sidegrades, it will get by with it. Only just, though. Competitive enviroment is very restrictive on allowing unlocked weapons.

I hate when stuff like this happens to even retail games. Battlefield 3 is far less enjoyable to play as of currently than it was at launch. Yeah, I'm not paying for Premium.

To me it looks like this game is heading where Tribes:Ascend was. You're going to have multiple classes, you're going to have unlocks which take significantly more time to unlock by playing. And by significantly more time I mean SIGNIFICANTLY more time. You're able to keep up with unlocks if you're playing the game constantly, but probably only for 1-2 classes.

While I can understand that you are not Valve, nor do you have interests in setting up a very strong foothold to the Asian market through digital distribution beyond your own game, I would like you to consider it a bit. I don't "get" all these +x% upgrades, they do little to change the game in any meaningful way. They're not those cool new weapons which people want to try out. They're boring upgrades with which you are either better with or worse without. It's just money-grabbing, and people are buying them to make the best out of their mech. They probably won't notice the difference from getting that +4% damage, but they'll get it regardless.

LOL/TF2 are selling you Champions, Cosmetics or Weapons. Well, LOL does offer runes, but at least those are not something you're not supposed to unlock for everything separately; and you can actually get done with the real grinding (upgrades) part of the game. Buying something completely new is completely different from buying a boring, percentage upgrade that you know that's going to make you somewhat better. It probably has zero impact on your playstyle, and the reason why most people would buy the thing in the first place would be about not being at a disadvantage against others who have already bought the said upgrade. The upgrades themselves are a definition for p(L)ay-to-win. People who have attained more ingame currency won't just have a bigger array of weapons and possibilities at their hands; no, they're doing better than you with exactly the same setup. And that's where things go wrong.

What sucks bigtimes as well are consumable premium upgrades. Just play GRO and you'll see what I mean. +10% damage for 100 rounds or something like that. Stack it up with everything and you'll start to see where the game goes wrong. One guy has the same gun yet he kills you in half the time at medium range. If you ever implement these, you're already heading the wrong way.

I despise the whole F2P model as a whole. I really understand where people are coming from with all this, as it justifies the constant business through the game, it enables a service model as opposed to selling products (boxed copy with possibly low income% of the actual sale price and smaller opportunities when it comes to making money in the long run) and it allows you to get a whole bunch of new people into playing your game. The whole market has gone beyond the saturation point for me and I have hard time buying games even from Steam Sales. I have several games which I haven't managed to play through as of yet and while I could see Hawken being interesting, I doubt I would've installed it unless I managed to find a key being conveniently just in front of my face, and the game being free to play.

All these games are more or less slowly turning into RPGs where skill differences can be equated or even overcame by differences in skillpoints. The process to attain the best assets can be either done by grinding or by spending cold hard cash. I hate the whole process of games turning into these services, especially since it's taking over some legacy titles - the next generals C&C is going to be an F2P. Shame, for me it was the only EA-labeled C&C worth installing.

I guess I could just as well start calling Hawken an RPG-mech-FPS. The thing that games like TF2 and LOL get right with their F2P model is that they aren't selling you upgrades. Or well, at least technically not. They aren't selling you +5% damage to your main weapon.

TLDR; the post might have some repetition to get the point across, but regardless; just get rid off the upgrades, and sell skins + weapons. Capitalize on the IP with you live action series, single-player campaigns and stuff like that which people are far more ready to pay for. I doubt you'd even need to sell any of the alternate weapons to actually make the game good enough for the business side of things.

[LordofNosgoth]

My only problem with the current system is this:

Hawken points (free) are given out in far fewer numbers, are far harder to get than Meteor points and it takes way too many to get "earned" items that you could otherwise pay for.

I think this is what the griping is over. Increase (slightly) the number of Hawken points that are earned by skill; this would allow for a truly fair pay/earn system.

IMHO.

Fight the Good Fight.

LordofNosgoth

[VertoPrime]

I keep saying this over and over, "There is no such thing as FREE".

[Derf]

Two suggestions on this. First, in my opinion it takes too long to get enough HP to buy stuff. So either the prices need to go down, or the rate you earn HP needs to go up.

Second, adjusting matchmaking such that you fight against people with a similar number of performance upgrades as you have would make it even regardless of whether you paid to get there or earned everything through playing.