60 replies to this topic

[CAmpie_X]

So I've played a couple of rounds and during those rounds figured I was doing pretty well. Second if not top scorer, some assists and a nice amount of XP after each round. "Cool!" I thought, "If this keeps up I'll be able to buy my next upgrade in a couple of rounds!".

Until I saw the amount of Hawken Points awarded.

Really_ ~50-60 points per game with the booster on (which I bought with Meteor points)_ That would mean I'd have to play a minimum of 20 games before I can buy even one upgrade for one mech.

Now I know this is Beta and everything is still being balanced, but that's the reason I posted this; to make sure this is looked at. Because the way it is now, there is no way in Hell I could bring up the patience to upgrade a Mech, let alone buy a new one. And when it comes to gaming I think of myself as pretty patient, I've been playing EVE Online for years for Bunny's sake But this rate of gaining Hawken points would just mean grind after endless grind to get to anything. Which would force me to either buy Meteor points or drop the game altogether, because I want to have fun, not grind my way up before I don't get roflstomped anymore. Yes I know it's mostly about skill and there's the upgrade trees, but a straight 8% ROF or 50HP upgrade is really quite substantial.

I get that you guys (devs) want to encourage people to buy Meteor points, after all it's probably your main source of income, but this is way out of balance and will drive people away IMO.

Just my two cents here, what are your (my fellow players' and maybe revered devs') thoughts on this_


TL;DR: Rate of attaining Hawken points vs cost of upgrades (20 good games WITH booster on to get 1 item) is simply not fun to grind to. What's your opinion_

[SilentCid]

Really no option for me to choose from your list of three. If you're active enough in the game you'll get more points vs someone who isn't. To me the pace seems find. If you said that "Hell no, I /want/ to play 20 games before I can buy any upgrade!" is the option I should pick that wouldn't be so as I don't feel like it's a grind.

[IceTonic]

Now, considering how it is all permanent, I'd rather not have the ability to unlock every upgrade possible within a few hours of play. This is coming from someone who has recently stopped playing a grindy FPS to buy permanent gear, in which most of it was obtained at the level/rank cap.

I think it would be appropriate if you could unlock a set-up about half-way in on a mech if you purely played that single bot. So it could be increased a bit so you earn about as much as you do now with the boost as default, which is not a whole lot but it would seem reasonable.

If there was anymore insight on leveling and XP, along with playing a few rounds myself I'd give a more in-depth opinion on this but until then if the Hawken Point earning rate allows for buying items/parts occasionally or as often as you would earn Upgrades for your mech (Tech Points for example) then I'd be completely fine with that.

[Patrick Bateman]

just buy a booster! its not p2w its p2progress right

in all honesty they should probably speed up the rates a bit, endless grind is what ive been worried about happening since I first caught wind of the game

theres a fine line between offering people who work all day the ability to buy a booster to speed things up, and making the regular experience/hawken point rate so incredibly slow its favorable to actually buy a booster at any given time

[Yushiamo]

I avg around 140point per round... without booster

Edited by Yushiamo, October 26 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[Crayyon]

how much xp you getting per round Yushiamo_ I just got a little less than 4k xp in missile assault and only got around 90 hawken points

[Digimaul]

You know, this new style of "Pay or Suffer" is really getting old fast.  I'm still up in the air about Hawkens take on it, but it's sure as fuzzy bunny the reason I won't be playing MechWarrior online.  That game is like this system, but on top of it you pay every round for repairs/ammo.  After the last patch over there, where they added a new armor type, I actually lose money every fight.  That's the extreme version of this mentality.  Hawken hasn't gone that far, which I'm thankful for, but the "Pay or Suffer" model needs to be thrown out.  

TF2 seems to make a pretty solid income without making the game suck for people who don't pay.  You can, as a totally new player, pick up that game and have fun with it.  If you find a weapon in the game you want that you don't have, you can generally make it in a fairly short amount of time.  The things you PAY for over there are novelty and cosmetic only.  You can still play the game.

Imagine a TF2 where you start with the Scout only... and have to either play 100 matches or pay $5 to unlock another class.  Hell, imagine you think the Pyro looks cool, play 100 matches, and then decide it's not fun to play.  Think about that game, really think about it.  That is "Pay or Suffer"... it's the same fuzzy bunny mentality as the one that thought "Pay to Win" was a good idea.

The minute you start offering weapons for sale, you start getting into damn thin ice.  The minute someone dies to a weapon they can't afford, and their thought is "NICE GUN, YOUR MOM BUY THAT YOU NO TALENT ASS", the game is done.  It's no longer an even playing field where you can do whatever they can.  Again, in TF2, if that sniper is kicking your ass, you can swap to sniper... in games where you can buy your gear, and the 'punishment' for not paying is limited game play... well it's not hard to go down that path.

The long and short of it is this:  I love this game, it's damn fun... but I won't play a "Pay or Suffer" game.  I want a game where noobs can pick it up and have the same gear as I do.  I want to look cooler while I play, but I damn sure want my bullets to do the same damage as theirs.  This is why I'd spend money on TF2, but not on MechWarrior Online... and I'm very worried to see which side of the fence Hawken ends up.

If I wanted to spend time in a world where money makes you special, I would go outside.

/rant.

Edited by Digimaul, October 26 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Digimaul]

Yushiamo, on October 26 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

I avg around 140point per round... without booster

Crazy... I've been finishing first in my matches pretty consistently and haven't seen over 100.  You must be a gaming god walking among us commoners.

[SilentCid]

Digimaul, on October 26 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yushiamo, on October 26 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

I avg around 140point per round... without booster

Crazy... I've been finishing first in my matches pretty consistently and haven't seen over 100.  You must be a gaming god walking among us commoners.

Plausible perhaps in DM.

[Digimaul]

SilentCid, on October 26 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Digimaul, on October 26 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yushiamo, on October 26 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

I avg around 140point per round... without booster

Crazy... I've been finishing first in my matches pretty consistently and haven't seen over 100.  You must be a gaming god walking among us commoners.

Plausible perhaps in DM.

Fair, I do focus on TDM myself.  Though it makes me wonder why on earth they'd be that different between modes_

[CharlieCroker]

Why are the options worded as though it sounds like wanting to earn my status is a bad thing_ Anyway, I'm for leaving as it is or at the very least making it so that people who really are the skilled ones in game earn the big points rather than people who just tag along. Paying for points should go in my opinion though.

[Thrull]

I agree that the rate of point gain is far too low for Hawken points.  As is it will take 20-30 games before you can buy... a single one-use item (1500hp).

Tribes: Ascend had an interesting solution to the problem of the "earnable for free" point grind.  You want it to be a grind, but you don't want it to be too horrible.  What they did was, in addition to having temporary boosters available, if you purchased any amount of real-money points (e.g. Meteor points), they would give you a permanent "VIP status" that boosted earnings for free points by +50% for the rest of your career.  It encourages people to throw a little money in, but it's also cheap enough that it doesn't seem like a huge deal.  I bought some real money points from them just for that permanent boost, so it seems like it worked in my case.  

Maybe Hawken can emulate_  I personally like the idea of a permanent boost/one-time payment as opposed to relying on temporary boosts.  I always feel like I'll have to play more than I want to to take advantage of temporary boosts...

[Mnemosy]

No way is someone getting 140+ in DM, the most you can get is in the 70s. The only way you get money in DM is from your ranking (so 1st is 40 hawken points) and time (which is 32 i believe) so you max at 72 pts. I haven't been able to get in any of the other modes, but I've been 1st placing in DM quite consistently and getting 72 each time. It's annoying as fuzzy bunny, this kind of performance would have netted 300 per match back in Alpha. I don't know what match type yields 140+ to a good player, maybe siege or missile assault. I haven't been able to get in those yet so I don't know.

[FenixStryk]

It could use a boost. IMO, 90 minutes of play time should equate to roughly enough Hawken points for one internal upgrade (so, 1550 Hawken points); in other words, 1000 Hawken points per hour assuming someone plays X games per hour. I'd say the average amount of games per hour during normal play is ~4 to 5, so... on average, free players should earn 225 Hawken points per game. We... aren't really earning that much.

It's only napkin math, but it's pretty clear Meteor is low-balling us... it's fine for now, and will be fine on Day 1 when everyone is stuck with nothing, but this curve will become more and more unforgiving to new players as the game ages. Bump it up to a solid 200 per win, give or take depending on player performance, and we should be perfect.

Edited by FenixStryk, October 26 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[defekt]

Given how many mechs there are to build up, and how many parts each mech needs, the point earn rate is probably a tad on the glacial side.

[Hipnox]

i finished first on a DM-Andromeda match and got around 60 Hawken points.

At this rate, i have to play (and win) 153 to have just enough to buy a mech.

it is ridiculous. Even without a renting system it's still way too much grinding

Edited by Hipnox, October 26 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[Digimaul]

CharlieCroker, on October 26 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Why are the options worded as though it sounds like wanting to earn my status is a bad thing_ Anyway, I'm for leaving as it is or at the very least making it so that people who really are the skilled ones in game earn the big points rather than people who just tag along. Paying for points should go in my opinion though.

Good plan.  Nothing attracts more players like slaughtering them in gear they can't get.

I prefer a game where everyone has the same options.  Frankly I don't like the XP system as a whole.  Chess wouldn't be a game of skill if every time you played it gained more abilities.  It makes it so that new people are at an automatic disadvantage.  

Games keep doing this fuzzy bunny... Planetside 2, Mechwarrior, Hawken... so many games think that rewarding their core with dominion over the general players somehow makes for a longer running game.  Counter Strike, Team Fortress, and others seem to disagree... and seem to be doing pretty damn well for themselves.

But what do I know.  I'm sure I'm just totes jelly at people buying mechs.

[[BV]TinCan]

Digimaul, on October 26 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

If I wanted to spend time in a world where money makes you special, I would go outside.

1000% +1

I just finished my first few rounds of the CB.
I even got the privilege to even join 3 rounds of Siege mode (sadly, I was kicked from the last two, so no XP or HP sticked ).
Besides that Siege mode is absolutely fantastic!

But I can't agree more with Digimaul and the OP:
The amount of HP resulting per game is ridiculously low set.

I'd call myself an average player, rather set in the lower ranks.
I know I will loose interest exponential to the level of grind I'll have to suffer to get upgrades.
Because I simply don't have the money to compensate for my lack of skills.

I know, "being poor" and "having to turn every penny twice before spending" are alien concepts to people who got enough, but you just have to face the fact that the number of people living them is growing fast these days, even in your neighborhood!

Don't let me be miss understood, I definitely will spend money on this game.
And that's the point here, although I am poor, I am still willing to buy at least something if only the incentive is right.
Turning me down would make you loose that money, becasue if I'd get the feeling that without it it'll take ages to make some progress in this game, I'd wonder why I should invest any money in the first place.

I understand that you try to find the right balance here, but Digimaul is right, you're walking a very thin line.
In any case, the first impression is, that the system now seems far from the "It'll never be a pay-to-win" theme the Hawken Team propagated in the early stages.

I read the thread, so I know some of you (obviously younger) people think it should all be about skill and the amount of time invested into the game, but believe me when I tell you, that this kind of thinking is definitely not profitable!

But, honestly, I think it's too early to tell already how this will work out - let's have this Beat and the next, 'cause in theory things tend to sound good but taste bad in reality. In the end only actually trying the current system (for a while) will tell.

tl;dr:  At this point I also think that the resulting HP out of one game are insufficient! But I am willing to give it a chance - after all, what else is the BETA for

Edited by Godsend, October 26 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[Coot]

Getting 100+ pts withought booster isn't that hard on MA. Just run around capping points. And yes I think they should up the point gain slightly, but not all that much.

[Immie]

Hawken point earnings are based off exactly three things, no more, no less:

• Win or loss
  
  
• Match duration
  
  
• Rank on scoreboard

The second having the most weight. Since siege mode typically lasts the longest, it tends to award the highest amount; around 100 per game, +/- some depending on match time and whether you won/lost. A 30 minute match (fairly short) that I won/placed first in gave me a little over 120 HP. Doubled to 240 with boost, it seems fast enough to me... there is a strange sense of entitlement among non-paying players, who seem to expect to get the whole game for free with absolutely no drawbacks. If there wasn't any incentive to buy stuff, the game wouldn't make any money.

Edited by Immie, October 26 2012 - 07:39 PM.