60 replies to this topic

[Digimaul]

Immie, on October 26 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

there is a strange sense of entitlement among non-paying players, who seem to expect to get the whole game for free with absolutely no drawbacks. If there wasn't any incentive to buy stuff, the game wouldn't make any money.

You should let valve know that.  They'll be horribly upset to hear that their game which is making money hand over fist isn't using a viable system.  I'm sure they'll be happy to change it to something which follows the "Pay or Suffer" model and up their profits.  

My vote is that they make it so you have to pay to unlock each class.  So if you want to play sniper you have to unlock it.  To play heavy you have to unlock it.  And you should add in a way to give a +10% bonus to speed, weapon damage, health, etc... that will keep people playing much better than having a level playing field.

Oh wait... no... now that I think about it that would be a horrible joke of a system and the game wouldn't have lasted more than a few weeks when the 'entitled' people got sick of it and left.  After all, they just seem to think they're 'entitled' to a game where how well you play matters more than how much you pay.

"Won't make any money..."  how the hell did people start believing this lie_  Just because there is a way to charge for something doesn't mean it's in the best long term interest to do so.  Make the game fun, make the game available, and make the game fair... attract a larger crowd and charge for vanity items, not advantages.  My "entitled" self is quite happy with the purchases I've made in other games like TF2 for fun side stuff, but I'll be damned if I'm going to give money to a "Pay or Suffer" system.

[Immie]

Interesting way to read my post. TF2 clearly has some incentives to for players to buy stuff... they also have a whole lot more stuff, a whole lot more players, and valve has a whole lot more money. It's not really a great comparison.


I'd love if Hawken could pull off a similar model to TF2, but they'd need to generate a whole lot of content before it was viable.

Edited by Immie, October 26 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Digimaul]

Immie, on October 26 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

they also have a whole lot more stuff, a whole lot more players, and valve has a whole lot more money. It's not really a great comparison.

Valve didn't have that volume of content in TF2 when it launched either.  That comes from adding things over time.

And part of the reason they have so many players is that people can pick up and put down the game at any time.  There's no XP nonsense, no in game currency (which they are VERY against for a good reason), and no punishment for people who play off and on.  You're not going to log in with your LV1 Heavy and get killed by a LV50 Scout who has a dozen damage bonuses and the best gear his mommy can by.  At most, you're going to get killed by a guy in a silly hat.

An even playing field.  That's what a game SHOULD be.  Chess would suck for new players if you didn't get rooks for the first 50 games, but your opponents started with two queens.  I sure as hell wouldn't play it if that's how chess worked.

[Immie]

TF2 wasn't free to play when it launched...

[FenixStryk]

Digimaul, on October 26 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

You're not going to log in with your LV1 Heavy and get killed by a LV50 Scout who has a dozen damage bonuses and the best gear his mommy can by.  At most, you're going to get killed by a guy in a silly hat. An even playing field.  That's what a game SHOULD be.

To be fair, Hawken does start off free players with (arguably) the best mechs in the game; the only issue is that free users will need to grind 4650 HP for basic internals, and another ~5K or so for more/better consumable items. While the handicap is not ideal (there should be placeholder internals IMO), there is no repair/maintenance HP sink in Hawken, nor are free players stuck with blatantly inferior weaponry when starting out (e.g. MWO's Trial Mechs). As long as Meteor can find a happy medium for HP accrual, this game will launch without a hitch.

[Digimaul]

Being "not as bad" isn't being "good."

I'll be the first to admit that Hawkens so far seems miles ahead of MWO, and that's why I still hold out hope of playing Hawken.  If it goes live as is... I dunno.  Maybe, but probably not.  Which is a damn shame because it's a great game.  In fact, I hope there are enough people who like it to keep it alive.

You mention the internals cost, and that's a very real problem, but look one further... say some guy saves up for a mech and then hates it.  I did that in MWO and I was pissed.  Took me weeks to save up for the mech, and then I hated running it... but I didn't have a choice but to keep using it or be back in the crappy one.

I'm lucky in Hawken that I know what role I enjoy... not everyone will.  How fun is it for someone to save up to buy one of the massive tanks and then hate the way they feel to play_  I keep referencing TF2, and this is another example of which works well to that... imagine saving up to buy a Heavy, hating it, and having to start over saving for another one.

Of course, you could just buy it!  Pay or suffer.  Blah.

[Stooge]

just my 2 cents...

I've played quite a few of these F2P games where if you are willing to fork over the $ you can have absolutely zero skill and dominate a match simply because you have the best gear, weapons, vehicles (ships), perks, etc. etc. etc.

this is not something I'm looking to join into again... I'm not the greatest player to ever grace a keyboard nor do i ever envision myself to be, what i am is a guy who works all day and comes home, plays games to relax and goes to sleep, rinse and repeat for the week... im not into games (or anything for that matter) that gives me grief or stress... i get plenty of that from work...

with all this said, i believe that if this game were to find that mythical place somewhere in between when skill still can prove to be the overall deciding factor in your outcome in the game vs someone who has a bigger wallet then you do, then it will be just fine. if not, then it will fall on its face in a bloody heap...

Stooge out.

[ReachH]

This game has a lot of potential to have deep gameplay. Games like SC2 require 1000x 15-30 minute games to unlock some portraits, over the span of probably several seasons. If you're gonna be playing this that much, and it has enough maps/skill/customization depth, then the rate might even be too slow.

If you're playing for the LEVEL UP rather than becoming a good 'pilot'/squadron member, and maybe learning the maps along the way, then you will just get annihilated because the multiplayer aspect essentially makes Hawken a FPS hybrid - and a damn good one.

Just seems like there's a reason the damage bonuses are marginal: to preserve a bit of the fair, competitive, skill-rather-than-level based multiplayer.

[FenixStryk]

Digimaul, on October 26 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Being "not as bad" isn't being "good."

You mention the internals cost, and that's a very real problem, but look one further... say some guy saves up for a mech and then hates it.  I did that in MWO and I was pissed.  Took me weeks to save up for the mech, and then I hated running it... but I didn't have a choice but to keep using it or be back in the crappy one.

Of course, you could just buy it!  Pay or suffer.  Blah.

Hawken CB1 did add a 3-day trial option for certain mechs (for me it was the Infiltrator), which should abate that specific complaint.

Otherwise, you're not wrong; F2P games are specifically designed to make free players happy enough for them to stay, yet miserable enough for them to pay. Grinds are a regrettable inevitability. Honestly, if you're tired of pay walls fuzzy bunny over free players in competitive F2P games, your best bet is to stick to boxed releases, pirated doujins and freeware browser games. It can't be helped.

[IceTonic]

Stooge, on October 26 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

just my 2 cents...

I've played quite a few of these F2P games where if you are willing to fork over the $ you can have absolutely zero skill and dominate a match simply because you have the best gear, weapons, vehicles (ships), perks, etc. etc. etc.

this is not something I'm looking to join into again... I'm not the greatest player to ever grace a keyboard nor do i ever envision myself to be, what i am is a guy who works all day and comes home, plays games to relax and goes to sleep, rinse and repeat for the week... im not into games (or anything for that matter) that gives me grief or stress... i get plenty of that from work...

with all this said, i believe that if this game were to find that mythical place somewhere in between when skill still can prove to be the overall deciding factor in your outcome in the game vs someone who has a bigger wallet then you do, then it will be just fine. if not, then it will fall on its face in a bloody heap...

Stooge out.

Agreed, though it is unfortunate that P2W doesn't die like many normally hope and believe. In all honesty it feels like the current shop in HAWKEN is a replay of what I've found in BLR. Right now after playing several games, and going against some mechs kitted out with every item imaginable, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had internals as well. I don't have an issue taking them down, it is more of a minor annoyance than a disadvantage. One thing I can say is I'm glad that you can still get anything that affects gameplay through IGC (in-game currency), but it can still be an issue (although slight) considering how much you might need to grind to kit up a mech or buy another.

This may change in the hands of a better player, but if they can utilize items so well it would be obvious they should perform on par. I never had an issue with less grenades and mines like I would in an the FPS I used to play, along with many others, and the current item/internals here seem to do about the same performance wise which doesn't concern me. Maybe I need to play a bit more to fully decide but it doesn't seem like Items/Internals are a huge issue. Maybe they could be nerfed, and allow you to upgrade them through leveling like you would with the rest of your mech, so those who use Meteor Points can only go so far until they grind the levels themselves. The only advantage of cash shop currency would be to get them early, which is fine with me if it still takes the player awhile to get the most out of the internal/item.

Around Open Beta, I feel it would be appropriate to have the option to choose a single mech and either buy a second or gear up your default. Just enough Hawken Points to have the ability to collect more mechs or work up on one.  At least then you'd have something to work with as you grind. As for how much should really be earned it really depends how Ahesive/Meteor would really want us to do with Mechs to determine the grind. Do they want us to fully kit up a few of our favorite mechs and stick with them, or be able to buy/try and use them all, giving the most love to our favorites_

FenixStryk, on October 26 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Honestly, if you're tired of pay walls fuzzy bunny over free players in competitive F2P games, your best bet is to stick to boxed releases, pirated doujins and freeware browser games. It can't be helped.

Don't forget the VNs
 VN1.jpg   236.38K   27 downloads

Edited by IceTonic, October 26 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[EkkoMech]

I have to agree with Digimaul. I used my Meteor Points immediately to upgrade my Assault Mech and dominated almost every single DM round I played.

It was blatently obvious which players had not bothered to upgrade their mech coming into the game because I could obliterate them in very few seconds.

Even Heavy Mechs I was able to dominate because I had enough speed and had gotten the +50Hp defensive bonus. Every single round I played I had the best K/D ratio and when I wasn't first I was second (3/5 rounds I got first. When I wasn't first I was second and the person who got first the other two rounds I was also able to dominate every time 1v1).

Honestly if I had had to grind and work my way up to all of the upgrades that I got both offensive and defensive I would get bored with the game pretty quickly because people who had paid to win would have a ridiculous advantage. Sure you need skill, I had Alpha experience so that probably helped, but the difference was very clear between the Mechs who had upgraded and given thoughts to their upgrades and those who had not.

I should also say that the 5 rounds of DM I played were the first and only rounds I have played in Closed Beta.
My K/D was 22/5, 13/1 and other very similar cases. The longer I played the better I got.

Edited by EkkoMech, October 26 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Monkeyweed21]

Digimaul, I get where you're coming from and you make some valid points, but you are going a bit extreme bashing MWO, praising TF2, and saying free players should get all gear and only cosmetics are paid. They wouldn't make enough money and this system would be WAY more generous than anything out there, even TF2. You also seem to be parroting a bit, constantly bringing up the "100 matches per TF2 class" metaphor.
Also, I know I will be flamed for this, but I am not a huge fan of the TF2 system. I hate randomness and Crafting takes a ridiculous time. I personally feel Blacklight's rental model or DOTA 2's model(which only works because of how popular Valve and DotA are) are better.
That aside, I will admit the current HP gain is ridiculous and needs to be increased. It would also be nice if you started off with one of each type of item/internal instead of one item. just my two cents
.

[BuDeKai]

Digimaul, on October 26 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

You should let valve know that.

tf2 isnt the only thing paying the bills over there buddy

[Tezkat]

Digimaul, on October 26 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

SilentCid, on October 26 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Digimaul, on October 26 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yushiamo, on October 26 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

I avg around 140point per round... without booster

Crazy... I've been finishing first in my matches pretty consistently and haven't seen over 100.  You must be a gaming god walking among us commoners.

Plausible perhaps in DM.

Fair, I do focus on TDM myself.  Though it makes me wonder why on earth they'd be that different between modes_

Several possible reasons...

Deathmatch tends to be much more frenetic and faster paced, with players constantly trading kills. In the other modes, teams are often off doing objectives on opposite sides of the map and clash less frequently.

Those objectives do give XP (often much more XP than you get from actual kills), but it's a bit situational and sometimes fails to reward team play. (e.g. If you're escorting or guarding the energy carrier rather than doing it yourself, you don't get any points.)

Plus the non-DM games are simply a lot longer. I had a Siege Mode match today that lasted almost an hour. Got 150 HP for about 30 kills and a few battleship explosions.

Edited by Tezkat, October 26 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[IceTonic]

Monkeyweed21, on October 26 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

...I personally feel Blacklight's rental model or DOTA 2's model(which only works because of how popular Valve and DotA are) are better...
.

The rental model system is nice but if the rate is too slow and the costs are too high it will be hard for the busy/average player to maintain their desired purchases and save enough to be able to obtain them permanently. I feel Blacklight's rental system is good if you want to use something, so long as you play enough games to make up for every item you've rented. Too many times I hear players struggling to make ends meet by renting out enough gear that would take up all the internal/item slots we have here in HAWKEN. It just may not be the right thing unless the time it expires only applies to the player being online or actively participating in a game.

EkkoMech, on October 26 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

I have to agree with Digimaul. I used my Meteor Points immediately to upgrade my Assault Mech and dominated almost every single DM round I played.

It was blatently obvious which players had not bothered to upgrade their mech coming into the game because I could obliterate them in very few seconds.

... I had Alpha experience so that probably helped, but the difference was very clear between the Mechs who had upgraded and given thoughts to their upgrades and those who had not.

I think the Alpha experience contributed much to how well you've done. I've ran into players who have dropped EMPs, Turrets, etc. on me and with a bit of skillfull dodging and hiding it only kept me from hurting them for a few seconds. Then the tubing resumed, and they died. It really only matters if the item user is in a group, or is skilled but either way you'd likely lose to the former unless you're a much better and smarter player.

It does feel though, the upgrades are a huge advantage for more experienced players. I feel inclined to say the Armor boost internal is a bit much, especially compared to the Optimization/Passives it feels crazy powerful. A bit of rebalance should be in order for Internal/Items, and I personally wouldn't mind a slightly nerfed freebie version of Items. You could still work toward the upgraded versions, and sticking to default wouldn't be so bad so long as they aren't nerfed/weak to the point they're useless.

[EkkoMech]

IceTonic, on October 26 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

It does feel though, the upgrades are a huge advantage for more experienced players. I feel inclined to say the Armor boost internal is a bit much, especially compared to the Optimization/Passives it feels crazy powerful. A bit of rebalance should be in order for Internal/Items, and I personally wouldn't mind a slightly nerfed freebie version of Items. You could still work toward the upgraded versions, and sticking to default wouldn't be so bad so long as they aren't nerfed/weak to the point they're useless.

That I think is a great idea.

Edited by EkkoMech, October 26 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Wonderbread]

ok did not read all of this but read most of it. I think if they keep it as it is now with no repair bills or rental fee or any other add on that takes away your HP just for doing a battle, then how they have it is fine. I would say if they keep it like this to create a training mode were new ppl can test and find what mech fits there play style so they can get a mech they can have fun with from the start. So let every thing else slowly build up Hp to get add-on will work.
Also i may add i love the fact that you get the most HP and XP in the two game mods that are not just baseic kill or be killed death matches. i hated games that gave the most rewards in Free for all and Team Death match. Hawken's don't do that and it makes me happy. yea not to keen that i have to spend 2hrs of play to get 300hp and most things are 1k hp and more but that means after a week of play i will have something new to use in the next week. which is slow but if feels good to me a causal gamer now if they slow it up any more then what it is that would make me mad and if it gets to fast then you will have all your no life kids will everything jumping from what mech type to another will so much to pick form that every time you kill them the change something and would kill team strategics which this game is putting in play nicely.

[Simp]

The thing with me is, I feel "spent" very quickly, I can only play about 15 games per session before calling it a day. I can't grind. I'm simply not capable of it. I thrive only on the "fun" a match has to offer, because otherwise the progression in the background is less rewarding than watching
paint *Purchased with meteor points* dry.

[Digimaul]

Monkeyweed21, on October 26 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Digimaul, I get where you're coming from and you make some valid points, but you are going a bit extreme bashing MWO, praising TF2, and saying free players should get all gear and only cosmetics are paid. They wouldn't make enough money and this system would be WAY more generous than anything out there, even TF2.

What_  How on earth is this "Way more generous than anything out there, even TF2"_  That make no sense.

And I'm bashing MWO because that game is not playable without paying.  It's a joke.  It's the current poster child for this "Pay or Suffer" nonsense, and I feel nothing wrong with calling it exactly what it is.  I'm not going to butter up that their cash milking ruined any chance of me playing that game.  I'd be happy to link some statistics about how I consistantly, despite getting first/second on kills/assists on the winning team and surviving the fight, cannot turn a profit in the majority of fights.  I lost over 100k in their currency in four fights with one loss, losing money in all but one of them.  That's a pay wall, that's stupid, and that is damn sure not going to make them money.  

People like myself don't pay at gun point.  We pay when we enjoy a game.  I spent a fortune on fuzzy bunny for WoW, I spent a pretty damn solid amount of money for fuzzy bunny in TF2, and the same in other games... but I sure as hell have no intention to give money to someone who thinks a shakedown is a good payment model.

Monkeyweed21, on October 26 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

You also seem to be parroting a bit, constantly bringing up the "100 matches per TF2 class" metaphor.

Also seems to be a lack of people who can respond to that.  Pointing it out makes it less true_  Maybe you'd like to take a swing at it_  Because someone in this thread said it was about 150+ rounds to get a new mech.  And different mechs function like different classes in TF2.  I'll be happy to stop saying it if its not a valid point.  Please, explain.

Monkeyweed21, on October 26 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Also, I know I will be flamed for this, but I am not a huge fan of the TF2 system. I hate randomness and Crafting takes a ridiculous time. I personally feel Blacklight's rental model or DOTA 2's model(which only works because of how popular Valve and DotA are) are better.
That aside, I will admit the current HP gain is ridiculous and needs to be increased. It would also be nice if you started off with one of each type of item/internal instead of one item. just my two cents

The crafting I can take or leave, but it allows the randomness to be less random.  The point isn't that part of it, the point is that you can get equal gear to anyone in a very short amount of time.  The focus isn't on grinding for gear.  You don't have to spend 1000 hours playing to get the experience for a damage bonus to your heavy, only to feel like playing your pyro and be a noob again.  This is another thing MWO screwed up... in that game all my Mechs are Catapults.  Not because I like the frame, but because you need 3 to unlock the next experience level.  Having a light, med, and heavy that I like would be nice, but that's not how the game is setup.

In Hawken, that equivalent seems to be mech-xp.  So if you want to start playing a Sharp Shooter after spending months playing an Assault... well you start over, grats.  And if you're a new player, well get ready to play against people who have an advantage over you in damage.  Because that always make you want to play more.  I know when I play counter strike I'm always upset that everyone gets a +10% damage boost over me...

In this phase, we were given Meteor points to start with... I used them to buy a mech and fit it out.  I can tell you with 100% certainty that in my crappy normal mech I have a lot less fun (and play much more poorly) than I do in my nice one.  And when the game is live, and I'm getting mowed down by people who paid, I'll be uninstalling.

[Bollard]

I've averaged about 30HP a game without a booster.  That is insane! Look at League of Legends. Their most expensive Champions are only 6300 of the in game currency, and on average you will earn about 100 points a game. Here we have Mechs costing 9200 and earning about 30 points a game. That is ridiculous, especially when you consider the amount of upgrades you have to buy to fully kit out a mech (another ~7000 HP). There is no way in hell I'd keep playing this game if it was that much of a grind come final release.