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Remove Negative Mouse Acceleration

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#1 Duran_Duran

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:49 PM

The mouse movement has the problem that ArmA II has which is Negative Mouse Acceleration. Basically, move your mouse slowly, you'll notice that you'll move more sensitive, now try to move it faster in the same distance, it moves slower and doesn't cover the same distance. Even with mouse acceleration off it still does this. ArmA II has this problem and Bad Company 2 during Beta had it as well.

Here's a video showing what Negative Mouse Acceleration is:

Team Fortress 2 had this problem until they added the option to allow raw mouse input, this could be an easy fix for Hawken.

#2 Tetora

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:50 PM

Did you post this in Bugs forum_
Sounds like a bug if it wasn't intended.

#3 Duran_Duran

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:58 PM

I didn't know whether or not this was intentional, but could a moderator please move this to the bug forums_ Sorry.

#4 EmuRage

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Posted October 27 2012 - 08:26 PM

Could it just be that you're at the maximum turn speed of the mech_ Or are you seeing it at slow speeds well within the mech's max turn speed_

#5 Immie

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:10 PM

There is supposed to be a max turning speed, to simulate the fact that you're in a huge mech that doesn't turn around very easily (discounting the thruster-assisted 180 spin)... the way it works is kind of weird though- if you turn fast enough to start being slowed down, it'll slow you down more than if you were turning at just under the limit. I'm not sure if it's a technical issue, but surely inputting the fastest possible movements should not be slower than something less.

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#6 Duran_Duran

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Posted October 28 2012 - 01:20 PM

View PostImmie, on October 27 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

There is supposed to be a max turning speed, to simulate the fact that you're in a huge mech that doesn't turn around very easily (discounting the thruster-assisted 180 spin)... the way it works is kind of weird though- if you turn fast enough to start being slowed down, it'll slow you down more than if you were turning at just under the limit. I'm not sure if it's a technical issue, but surely inputting the fastest possible movements should not be slower than something less.

If there's a max turning speed then what should happen is that swiping your mouse across as fast as possible should yield the same effect as moving your mouse as fast as the actual turning speed.

What's happening is that moving the mouse slowly turns your mech faster than rapid mouse movements as seen in the video.

#7 Karboxyd

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Posted October 28 2012 - 03:12 PM

Yes, that's a huge pain.

Please make a toggle for any kind of acceleration, if you really want to keep it.

#8 Myxa

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Posted October 29 2012 - 07:29 AM

Is it still in the game_ People complained about it since Alpha. Only played a couple of games and left after figuring out what was wrong with the controls. Devs, if this is your planned feature then I suggest you reconsider the underlying mechanism behind it.

#9 Duran_Duran

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Posted October 29 2012 - 03:30 PM

View PostMyxa, on October 29 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Is it still in the game_ People complained about it since Alpha. Only played a couple of games and left after figuring out what was wrong with the controls. Devs, if this is your planned feature then I suggest you reconsider the underlying mechanism behind it.


Yup it's still in the beta and it hasn't been fixed yet.

Edited by Duran_Duran, October 29 2012 - 03:30 PM.


#10 Ataraxis

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Posted November 09 2012 - 05:35 AM

Came here to ask for the same thing, please remove the mouse accel. It's annoying and lowers my interest into the game drasticly.

#11 [HWK]Deuy

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Posted November 28 2012 - 08:36 PM

Hawken has a cap on turn speed, in other words you can't turn your character as fast as you can move your mouse.  The max turn speed is a lot lower than most FPS games. This is in an attempt to simulate being in the cockpit of a huge machine, rather than feeling like a human spinning around.

A lot of people mistake this for negative mouse acceleration.  In fact, when you flick your mouse to the side quickly you are indeed turning at the max speed cap, however you are only turning for a short moment because your mouse move was so fast (it ended quickly).  When you move the mouse slower you can still turn at that same max speed cap, but you will be able to continue turning much farther because you're moving the mouse for a longer period of time.  

You aren't being punished for moving your mouse faster, the mechs simply can't turn that fast and will stop turning when your mouse isn't moving.  We tested having the mech "remember" your mouse movement and attempt to "catch up" to that motion, but this made the controls feel laggy and unresponsive.  It was also a bit nauseating for a lot of people.  

Hope that clears up some confusion.



P.S. -  I personally asked an engineer to check on this based off the feedback from older threads.  He looked into the code extensively and the info above is based off his testing.  We even added a turn speed indicator to the hud for the Open Beta build of the game.  You can see when you've hit the max speed cap now.  The speed cap is hit right away with quick mouse movements and then drops off instantly.  If you try moving your mouse very fast for a longer period of time (like dragging it quickly across the whole length of your desk) it's very difficult to not mix in up and down aim movement rather than just turning.  I think this gives the impression that you just can't turn as fast as when you move the mouse slowly.

#12 Karboxyd

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Posted November 30 2012 - 08:08 PM

Thanks for the clarification.

Still, the reason we call it "negative acceleration" is because it feels this way.
The difference between when that limitation is not in effect, and when it kicks in, is quite unsettling.

If we look at the "competition", MechWarrior Online is doing it the right way:
While it does seem to have mouse acceleration/speed limitation, the system doesn't feel like it's holding you back (whether you want to take the reticle into account).
It's actually quite funny, since MWO is a simulation (as opposed to Hawken which is arcade), and so in that regard it's supposedly much more realistic (to sum it up: you're pushing too far that "realism" envelop where it doesn't fully belong).

The way I think that limitation works in MWO (or at least the way I think Hawken should work) might be that when you're not going above the define acceleration threshold... obviously nothing is happening.
When you get above that threshold, though, you are now operating within a specific (read: short and defined) acceleration window.
So instead of having the same in-game speed all the way through the "hardware" acceleration (which I referred to as holding back the player), we have a small acceleration (which is the same for everyone, and thus hard-coded) which doesn't hold back.
The (not-so-obvious) advantage is that while the player does feel that small acceleration, he'd have most likely ended his (mouse) movement when the absolute limiter kicks in, which means no frustration (give MWO a try, if only for that acceleration system, it'll speak volume).

#13 Karboxyd

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Posted December 05 2012 - 09:21 AM

Closing the beta 2 and 3 threads relating to this is fine, but unfortunately it doesn't help the visibility on this one, more so if even devs don't check this one now and then :o

#14 Saint_The_Judge

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Posted December 09 2012 - 12:59 PM

View PostKarboxyd, on December 05 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

Closing the beta 2 and 3 threads relating to this is fine, but unfortunately it doesn't help the visibility on this one, more so if even devs don't check this one now and then :o
Agreed. Twice, because your statement on previous post is absolutely right. Calling it turn or speed cap doesn't make any difference, since it feels exactly like NMA.
Let's hope at least game's extremely bad performance when it comes to framerate and FPS be fixed. They have less than 3 days to give us a playable stuff.
Cheers.
Once a girl asked me in a chat: "-ASL_" I answered: "- Very old, impotent, third world." And she got out the room. Posted Image

#15 Karboxyd

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Posted December 10 2012 - 09:23 AM

View PostSaint_The_Judge, on December 09 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Let's hope at least game's extremely bad performance when it comes to framerate and FPS be fixed. They have less than 3 days to give us a playable stuff.
While hope is all we got left, I'm not confident in the slightest regarding that Non-Negative-Mouse-Acceleration, seeing how happy they seem to be with that "system".
I've been aboard since Alpha 2, and I doubtly will be breaking any Alpha NDA by saying it's been the same since then...

#16 Saint_The_Judge

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Posted December 11 2012 - 07:28 AM

The first post I made here was about NMA, a few minutes after playing for the first time, in early alpha stage.
Then, after some replies and even another thread about the same problem (not started by me), I said they wouldn't change mouse behaviour. AJK (a flooder around here) even made a joke "-a little birdie told you that_" type. I then told him/her my experience did.
That's it. They called NMA a sweet name and closed the book. Personally, I'm playing it again just when I'm sure at least the terrible 10 fps issue is gone. But all that anticipation I've had for almost 1 year became a disappointment. Hawken is not a shade of what promo videos made me think.
Once a girl asked me in a chat: "-ASL_" I answered: "- Very old, impotent, third world." And she got out the room. Posted Image





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