What. They were on top in the alpha too. Also remember you from alpha(and yesterday too), you gave me a good beating though I think I was only one to be able to counter your slug-sabot combination to some extent on that match in alpha. Sweet revenge if I see you again in enemy team
Ye i remember you too, you put a pretty good fight back then.
[attachment=515:zzz.jpg]
And more i encounter assault rifles then more im sure theres something wrong about them.
Even if i dodge every single TOW my hp still goes down very quick from AR spray, even from quite long ranges.
What. They were on top in the alpha too. Also remember you from alpha(and yesterday too), you gave me a good beating though I think I was only one to be able to counter your slug-sabot combination to some extent on that match in alpha. Sweet revenge if I see you again in enemy team
Ye i remember you too, you put a pretty good fight back then.
[attachment=515:zzz.jpg]
And more i encounter assault rifles then more im sure theres something wrong about them.
Even if i dodge every single TOW my hp still goes down very quick from AR spray, even from quite long ranges.
Yeah, the AR has been pretty badfuzzybunny this CB.
[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:
AJK is right
The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'
I also feel that TOW is stronger from alpha, or maybe its that Assault Rifle, Berserkers and Assaults are doing pretty well from before.
What. They were on top in the alpha too.
I'm just going to say that I strongly disagree
Popularity does not suggest effectiveness. Note how in CB we've had a few "op" accusations, and while everyone's hopping on the aAsault bandwagon, we've already started to see some SS QQ due at least in part to how hard they counter CQC classes
C-Class Swagger
Ballin' and Brawlin'
Cloakin' and Smokin'
The lowest damage special weapon is the most OP_
That's odd, especially since it's the only special that can be negated entirely by shields
It is odd. Because it's a joke to call any weapon in this game OP. The game is well-balanced. People get killed by TOW rockets because they have high burst damage, and everyone is playing assault right now. Once more people pick up Sharpshooter, then you'll become convinced that the sabot rifle is OP.
Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:
link0, on October 29 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:
Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:
JustJake, on October 28 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
The Sabot Rifle is the only OP weapon.
The lowest damage special weapon is the most OP_
That's odd, especially since it's the only special that can be negated entirely by shields
Well the Sabot is also the only HitScan weapon, so it's easier to hit.
There's no method of compensation for a miss though, on the flip side
The TOW and GL can hit even without directly colliding with the target, and the GL can basically be used as a mine for a short period of time
Your primary options are also a lot better on non-sharpshooter classes. The Slug compliments the Sabot nicely, but that's only because low firerate isn't such a problem at those ranges
You won't get far with the sabot rifle if you can't aim. But between the burst damage output of a sabot volley, the range, and the high reward for last-hitting enemies, the sabot rifle has the highest average damage output in the game.
It is odd. Because it's a joke to call any weapon in this game OP. The game is well-balanced. People get killed by TOW rockets because they have high burst damage, and everyone is playing assault right now. Once more people pick up Sharpshooter, then you'll become convinced that the sabot rifle is OP.
I never said anything was OP or UP bro
I've been around for a lot of flip flopping and angry OP accusations. Throwing in a single line concerning a weapon's balance with no implication of sarcasm leads me to believe that you're in that same group, hence my reply
I think the game's pretty close to balance. It ain't perfect, but the outliers don't create many issues in pub matches and we can easily fix them before comp play gets going
JustJake, on October 29 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:
You won't get far with the sabot rifle if you can't aim. But between the burst damage output of a sabot volley, the range, and the high reward for last-hitting enemies, the sabot rifle has the highest average damage output in the game.
It's not a matter of "can or can't" aim, but okay lets look at these bits that help the "average damage output"
Burst damage output from a Sharpshooter is lower than that of any mech with a different special weapon and a burst weapon to go with it. The burst on the Sabot itself is some of the lowest in the game
The range may give you a head start in some fights, but that's not necessarily a proven "average" situation
"High reward" for last hits has nothing to do with damage
So we have one wrong, one sometimes right, and one "I don't even know how you decided this was relevant"
The Sabot has a range advantage, not a damage advantage, and that can be overcome somewhat with prediction skill and a HEAT cannon
It's a good class, but not at the things you seem to be focusing on
Edited by Beemann, October 29 2012 - 08:40 PM.
C-Class Swagger
Ballin' and Brawlin'
Cloakin' and Smokin'
Rockets are definitely not overpowered. The TOW does not track, and the Hellfire need a lock to be effective. Sometimes its a challenge to get a lock and fire and hit before the target moves into cover.
That's true. My main complaint about the TOW is that if i want to detonate the rocket in mid-flight near an enemy, i have no indication whatsoever if the rocket is actually in-range. Most of the time, i detonate it, thinking that it must of damaged the enemy, only to realise that i detonated it too soon. Perhaps an indicator or something would be useful.
The_Eldritch_Abomination, on October 29 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:
AC273, on October 29 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:
Rockets are definitely not overpowered. The TOW does not track, and the Hellfire need a lock to be effective. Sometimes its a challenge to get a lock and fire and hit before the target moves into cover.
That's true. My main complaint about the TOW is that if i want to detonate the rocket in mid-flight near an enemy, i have no indication whatsoever if the rocket is actually in-range. Most of the time, i detonate it, thinking that it must of damaged the enemy, only to realise that i detonated it too soon. Perhaps an indicator or something would be useful.
That's part of the skill of the TOW, learning the timing on long it takes to travel a certain distance so you can detonate it properly.
It's basically the same as learning how to lead in order to get a direct hit.
If you know how to do that, you should have no problems with detonating it.
[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:
AJK is right
The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'
The_Eldritch_Abomination, on October 29 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:
That's true. My main complaint about the TOW is that if i want to detonate the rocket in mid-flight near an enemy, i have no indication whatsoever if the rocket is actually in-range. Most of the time, i detonate it, thinking that it must of damaged the enemy, only to realise that i detonated it too soon. Perhaps an indicator or something would be useful.
That is part of the skill in using a TOW. All the weapon require a degree of skill to use all their functions including airbursting the grenade launcher to hit airborn targets. It's not easy all the time but the pay off is worth it when mastered.
If you know how to use it then you're the OP player. The tow is not OP and I agree with other posts. Wait till you play more experience players
I agree, TOW can be one of the most devastating weapons in the game if used right. Sending it in the right direction and detonating in the right time can do alot of damage. Ability to kill stuff around corners or hit with splash even if it misses is very effective. Still that spiral motion is painful .
It is odd. Because it's a joke to call any weapon in this game OP. The game is well-balanced. People get killed by TOW rockets because they have high burst damage, and everyone is playing assault right now. Once more people pick up Sharpshooter, then you'll become convinced that the sabot rifle is OP.
I never said anything was OP or UP bro
I've been around for a lot of flip flopping and angry OP accusations. Throwing in a single line concerning a weapon's balance with no implication of sarcasm leads me to believe that you're in that same group, hence my reply
I think the game's pretty close to balance. It ain't perfect, but the outliers don't create many issues in pub matches and we can easily fix them before comp play gets going
We saw these arguments during the alpha, and the sabot-rifle light class is out of the game.
Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:
JustJake, on October 29 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:
You won't get far with the sabot rifle if you can't aim. But between the burst damage output of a sabot volley, the range, and the high reward for last-hitting enemies, the sabot rifle has the highest average damage output in the game.
It's not a matter of "can or can't" aim, but okay lets look at these bits that help the "average damage output"
Burst damage output from a Sharpshooter is lower than that of any mech with a different special weapon and a burst weapon to go with it. The burst on the Sabot itself is some of the lowest in the game
This simply isn't true. The sabot rifle fires faster than the TOW, and is guaranteed to hit whatever your crosshair is over. No other secondary weapon has that promise! If your crosshair is over a mech and you fire the sabot rifle, you WILL get a hit. This presents a first-order-optimal strategy that no other class can exploit to the same degree of effectiveness:
Dodge around corner
Fire sabot and slug rifles together. You deal 1/4 of a Class B in damage
Dodge back. No other secondary weapons have hit you because they have travel time.
Repeat
This is the sort of abuse of high-damage hitscan that makes the sabot rifle overpowered -- the sharpshooter will be back in cover before a TOW, grenade, or missile barrage can possibly hit her.
Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:
The range may give you a head start in some fights, but that's not necessarily a proven "average" situation
Sharpshooter performs better on the longer line-of-site maps like Sahara and Titan.
Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:
"High reward" for last hits has nothing to do with damage
And a weapon being OP has nothing to do with damage, either. It has to do with producing better results, where results are defined as "higher scores"
Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:
So we have one wrong, one sometimes right, and one "I don't even know how you decided this was relevant"
I don't understand what is hard to follow. If we want to reason about a weapon being OP or not, isn't results/score a better measure of OP-ness than damage-output-at-the-point-of-fire_
Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:
The Sabot has a range advantage, not a damage advantage, and that can be overcome somewhat with prediction skill and a HEAT cannon
It's a good class, but not at the things you seem to be focusing on
Yes, any amount of OP-ness can be overcome with sufficient opposing skill. Something is OP when it presents a vastly more appealing first-order-optimal strategy versus the other available options. I believe the sharpshooter pop-and-gun is such a strategy.
It's an OP class, and I know because I play almost exclusively Sharpshooter. I use these tactics, and they are very difficult to defeat.
I dont think you can take k/d ratio as a valid argument to Sharpshooter opness. Sabot, or entire class in general has best tools for stealing kills in the game. Everytime i see someone fighting each other i just pump my sabot and get a kill with no effort, this doesent mean SS is op.
Still, if SS is caught with his pants down in CQB by some close combat mech it will just die. You can win ofcourse, but you need to outplay your enemy with everything you got including items.
I don't know about those numbers- if your playing the sharpshooter correctly then your an opportunists- as long as your aware of whats happening in the vicinity you can usually score kill hits on wounded mechs in the middle of combat. If I see a sharpshooter at range I often won't pursue, and look for closer targets/battles that will happen behind cover. If I'm close to a sharpshooter I just need to make sure he misses at least once with the sabot due to a dodge and its usually game over.
Used the SS in alpha (did assault and rocketeer for beta), found similar situations playing out and never once thought any mech/weapon/item combo was OP or even UP. I like seeing such heated discussions about a game, especially one that is shaping up as nicely as Hawken- but some of these "advanced members" that post here seem far too entitled If I see the word Fuzzy Bunny one more time my eyes will bleed.
K/D means nothing. If it's a gametype like Siege or Missile Assault, the player who's going for K/D is actually a detriment to his team.
It's why last I checked my lifetime K/D was around 2.
Also, I absolutely disagree with Sabot being OP. Yes, it hits instant, and it hits hard, but as others have said, it's among the lowest in terms of DPS, it takes forever to reload, and you suffer - hard - if you miss. You focus on making your shots count.
Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer. A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego. An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings. It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."
crutch means that bad players will benefit from it while good players are better off using a more skill based weapon*
large radius and splash damage, easy to use, high direct hit damage and everyone starts with it - most games consist of players just running up to each other and spamming TOWs in each others faces while spamming assault rifles
*(keep in mind that good players will seem OP regardless of what weapon they are using, so it is important to note that crutch weapons do not make them "bad" it just means their potential skill ceiling is a bit lower by using a less than ideal crutch weapon. that said, their skill / skill ceiling, even in its reduced state, is still way above a bad players.)
K/D means nothing. If it's a gametype like Siege or Missile Assault, the player who's going for K/D is actually a detriment to his team.
It's why last I checked my lifetime K/D was around 2.
Keeping the enemy dead is a pretty good loss-prevention strategy, which is why my team win percent is almost 75%.
And my team win ratio is 100% using infiltrator. Or, 95% if you want to count matches I join then the team losses 5 seconds later. I'm not joking either, you can carry a team very hard in this game. The other thing I think you're underestimating is how inexperienced the player base really is, and that your play style requires experience to kill. It's kinda like a fighting game, where day 1 characters like Zangief are god-tier because no-ones good enough on the first day to avoid him walking up and throwing you. (and yes, at launch of the first SF4 Zangief was top tier because of exactly this)
We saw these arguments during the alpha, and the sabot-rifle light class is out of the game.
Half the classes are out. Were they OP too_
JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:
This simply isn't true. The sabot rifle fires faster than the TOW,
I'd like to see the numbers on that, because it definitely didn't before (it was the same)
It also doesn't fire faster than the GL
JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:
and is guaranteed to hit whatever your crosshair is over. No other secondary weapon has that promise
No, but they have the splash damage to compensate. Even on a miss you can still deal damage with the TOW, Hellfire and GL
JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:
! If your crosshair is over a mech and you fire the sabot rifle, you WILL get a hit. This presents a first-order-optimal strategy that no other class can exploit to the same degree of effectiveness:
That term does not mean what you seem to think it means
JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:
Dodge around corner
Fire sabot and slug rifles together. You deal 1/4 of a Class B in damage
Dodge back. No other secondary weapons have hit you because they have travel time.
Repeat
Hey! That's what I do on...
Oh... every burst damage class in the game
I guess I'm OP then
JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:
This is the sort of abuse of high-damage hitscan that makes the sabot rifle overpowered -- the sharpshooter will be back in cover before a TOW, grenade, or missile barrage can possibly hit her.
ignoring the bit where you weirdly decided to give the class a gender, I'd like to see the numbers that make the Sabot high-damage
Especially considering the Flak and Heat have at least similar output (and the Heat lets you stack AOE damage with no downside on classes like th
JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:
I don't understand what is hard to follow. If we want to reason about a weapon being OP or not, isn't results/score a better measure of OP-ness than damage-output-at-the-point-of-fire_
False dichotomy with a hint of strawmanning
You look at the weapon's numbers. To an extent you can look at performance across the board but that's numbers we really don't have
However, given that the Sharpshooter survived the FotW period in A2, I figure Adhesive doesn't consider it to be an issue
JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:
Yes, any amount of OP-ness can be overcome with sufficient opposing skill. Something is OP when it presents a vastly more appealing first-order-optimal strategy versus the other available options. I believe the sharpshooter pop-and-gun is such a strategy.
JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:
It's an OP class, and I know because I play almost exclusively Sharpshooter. I use these tactics, and they are very difficult to defeat.
1. KDR is not a valid method of measurement
Never has been
2. I have also played sharpshooter. I tested that, Brawler and the Assault primarily, and spent this test trying out the incredibly fun and effective Infiltrator (where I never had trouble with Sharpshooters)
I would have tested out a wider variety of mechs, but sadly my graphics card died
3. You're using these tactics against run-and-gun newbies. Congrats
4. Give the numbers when you throw out stuff like "Sharpshooters perform better on Titan and Sahara"
C-Class Swagger
Ballin' and Brawlin'
Cloakin' and Smokin'
2
Rotaken, on October 29 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:
though I think I was only one to be able to counter your slug-sabot combination to some extent on that match in alpha. Sweet revenge if I see you again in enemy team 
