51 replies to this topic

[JustJake]

Fantastic. Thank you Beeman. I think you've made a great argument that the sniper/sharpshooter is well-balanced.

I was frustrated all of Alpha 2 when people were constantly harping on and on about how OP the Sniper was; I think it's pretty interesting where the hard feelings are in this beta.

Hopefully in the future if anyone ever feels that the sabot rifle is OP, we can refer them to this thread.

PS if you're going to berate your debate opponent about a perceived misuse of a term, you should correct instead of just yelling "YOU'RE USING IT WRONG" at every occurrence of the word. I think that I used the phrase "first order optimal strategy" correctly.

Quote

a First Order Optimal Strategy (or FOOS) is basically the least effort to power ratio in a game. Basically, the strategy that will get you the most results, for the least amount of skill.

Ref: http://www.realityre...strategies.html

Edited by JustJake, October 30 2012 - 01:00 PM.

[Coot]

Anyone half decent will do well as a SS in these pub games since majority of players are new and trying out new mechs/builds. It's a pubstomp class and as players get better, learn the map and know to LoS an obvious SS in the distance, they will become less prevalent and less desirable to play.

Very easy class to play if standing in the distance taking pot shots at players. That playstyle is very unappealing to me. May try a CQC quickscope SS next beta build; barely saw any around attempting it this weekend.

[Beemann]

JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

PS if you're going to berate your debate opponent about a perceived misuse of a term, you should correct instead of just yelling "YOU'RE USING IT WRONG" at every occurrence of the word. I think that I used the phrase "first order optimal strategy" correctly.

Quote

a First Order Optimal Strategy (or FOOS) is basically the least effort to power ratio in a game. Basically, the strategy that will get you the most results, for the least amount of skill.

Ref: http://www.realityre...strategies.html

You think that a newbie is going to instantly gravitate to a twtich-based sniper rifle_
You also have yet to prove that it has the "maximum output" for the skill required or that your definition of "output" is correct in the first place (since it seems to use metrics like score)

Things like Baneling Bust and Void Ray spam are FOOS'
An equivalent in Hawken, IMO, would be item spam combined with something like the Hellfire.
The Hellfire offers less effectiveness as player skill gets higher, but it does some pretty hefty damage and it can be locked on, or spammed at a particular area
That, combined with some EMP and HE spam in CQC would be the end of a target, with very little risk or effort on the part of the shooter

The sharpshooter requires a lot more for a newbie to learn and consider. They must have appropriate twitch skill and a good position on the map, and enemy position call-outs are an asset to both the sharpshooter and it's team
Then there's classes like Infiltrators, that take huge dumps on newbie Sharpshooters
Seriously, I've long-ranged dueled some of these people and taken them out or forced them to retreat with only the HEAT cannon. Failing that I can get a good flank out of it and demolish them

A new player will likely gravitate to the Rocketeer, or to a hypothetical medium that may or may not also have the hellfire and a medium range spray weapon
That is, assuming they don't just stick with the relatively good all-rounder Assault mech

[PiVoR]

Beemann, on October 30 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

This simply isn't true. The sabot rifle fires faster than the TOW,

I'd like to see the numbers on that, because it definitely didn't before (it was the same)
It also doesn't fire faster than the GL

TOW and GL are firing faster than sabot currently.

Deuy, on October 29 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Grenade Launcher damage was reduced significantly, the in-game stats should be accurate on that.  To compensate, it's refire rate was sped up, from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.  AFAIK projectile speed wasn't changed, but I could be wrong about that.  It's less devastating when you hit now but it plays better and I really like the faster reload.  TOW damage went down a little bit I think, but projectile speed is faster as well as reload speed by half a second. Don't know all the exact numbers.

Beemann, on October 30 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Things like Baneling Bust and Void Ray spam are FOOS'

I prefer opfestors fungal spam .

[NotKjell]

ESSAAAAAAAAAY POST

I'm joining in this argument/discussion late but I'm not entirely sure what's being argued now. I'm assuming JustJake still feels SS is OP, or at the very least it's the FOOS that just so happens to also be the most powerful. First I guess I'll address is it being the FOOS, or more well known term, "noob toob".

Examples of TRUE FOOS's

Starcraft 2: 6 pool. The build order is literally just this - Do nothing. Build spawning pool when you finally have 200 minerals  Click 'build zergling' 3 times when the spawning pool finishes. Find opponents base and attack it. THAT'S IT, and you can get a win with it. 6 pool is by no means the most powerful strategy in the game (or even good), but it's the easiest thing in the game to do and get a win with against other newbies. For reference on what 'real' build orders can look like, here's JUST an opener http://wiki.teamliqu...FE_(vs._Terran)

Street Fighter (and many fighting games): Flowchart kens. You have no idea how many people play EXACTLY like this. It's fuzzy bunny hilarious. And yet they get wins somehow. http://wa1.images.on...rt.jpg_v=234600 I don't think I even need to mention that this is not the best way to play a fighting game.

Call of Duty (and a million other shooters): The noob tube. Point, click. Insta-Kill anyone within 10 feet of where you clicked, no matter how good they are. The most well-known FOOS I think, and a good example of why. Depends on the game, but this can actually be high-level strategy too.

Hawken: Sharpshooter. Accurately point and click 2 different weapons on a potentially fast-moving mech, taking off anywhere from 33% to 20% of their health. Now intellegently find cover and hide, as you have the lowest DPS in the game and cannot win head-to-head fights on even ground. Repeat every 5 seconds until target is dead. Don't miss. Waaait....

That doesn't sound like, "minimal effort". Powerful sure, but many things are. Sharpshooter requires intelligent play over time and good aim. And I'll speak as someone who has watched 3 different players pick up the game from nothing - sharpshooter is not what they found easy. It punishes bad aim, cannot go head to head with other mechs and NEEDS map knowledge to keep distance.

What did they ALL find easy_ The C-Class, brawler in particular. Suddenly, they can mindless charge their opponents, tank damage, and have 2 high DPS easy-to-aim weapons - the Flak cannon and TOW. This was by all means the Hawken FOOS. Against other people their skill, as soon as my friends picked the brawler they started wreaking face. No knowledge or effort require, just mindless fun. And for any fear that the easiest strategy is also the best - I think we all know the struggles of the C-class against good players.


Now, as far as sharpshooter being OP, I don't think so. Powerful yes, but most things in this game are when used correctly. There is one thing I feel is OP though - the Infiltrator with HEAT cannon. So lets look at all the reasons why I feel the infiltrator is OP, then see how the sharpshooter stacks up.

The biggest reason I feel the infiltrator is OP, is that against even good opponents (unless they are using the infiltrator w/ HEAT) my good play ensures than not only do they have no options to fight back on even terms, they actually have no options to not die or run away. The infiltrator with HEAT cannon is versatile enough to fight in any position and has a significant advantage against virtually any mech, with any loadout, at any range.

First, infiltrator is an A class. Outside of vs. other A-classes this means you automatically have the dodging/positional advantage, as well as the advantage in running away/chasing someone down. Nothing wrong with this, I mean this just comes with being faster. The downside is less health, and I feel should also be limited access to particular weapons - HEAT cannon and Vulcan in particular. Nothing wrong with being an A-class, but the issue comes into play with how much the HEAT+GL combo benefits from the A-class strengths, and minimizes the A-class weakness.

So second, the wonderfulness that is HEAT+GL. The DPS of the HEAT+GL is nothing outlandish at ~140, as the Assault Rifle+TOW is 146. However, AR+TOW is at 146 with sustained fire, generating a lot of heat. HEAT+GL is at 140 DPS shooting every 2-3 seconds, the rest can be spent behind cover. It also generates effectively 0 heat as you should be charging the HEAT for every shot.

Nothing even particularly outclasses this DPS in a straight fight, yet the HEAT+GL have such versatility. Both weapons have huge AOE. The GL can restrict movement by laying mines, be arced over cover, and banked off of walls to get deep behind cover. The HEAT cannon is point accurate and nearly hit-scan, it can even trade well with a sniper. On it's own, the HEAT is ~81 dps generating no heat, while slug+sabot is at ~96 DPS generating a lot of heat. And the HEAT is just as happy hitting the wall behind you as it is hitting you.

All of the above DPS stats are also ignoring an effect of front-loading all your damage - in the short term your DPS is unmatched. Look at just the HEAT vs. other primaries, assuming you walk around the the HEAT charged. If you round the corner vs. someone using the AR (a very common and high DPS primary), and you both start shooting at the same time. In the first instant, you've done 160 damage. Then, over the next 2 seconds the AR does ~170+. At 2 second mark though, you fire again for another 160, totaling 320 damage over 2 seconds (160 DPS) vs. 170. 160 DPS is beyond even standing still in front of the Point-D vulcan. And again, you can achieve this 160 DPS WITHOUT needing line-of-sight with your enemy for the majority of the time.

Third, this is where being an A-class becomes so silly with HEAT+GL. You have the mobility to ensure that you can always break line-of-sight after shooting. Against other A classes that can negate this, you have the absurd amount of front-end damage to ensure you out DPS them for days. The play style of HEAT+GL is already half running away, making it so B and C classes can't chase you down without getting kited or splashed to death from around corners. They can't hide from you either, your weapons are tailor made for damaging those behind cover. Infiltrator is often in your face in the first place, plus it's an A class so when someone runs it's not hard to catch them. The quasi-sniper rifle effect of the HEAT cannon does great damage at long range too (harder to run away again), and with arcing grenades provides a very safe way siege points from a great distance.

I honestly feel playing infiltrator with HEAT that I am never in danger. With good play I should never get cornered by a full-HP C-class or caught in an open field against a far-away sharpshooter. And outside of those 2 extremes, I feel like I always have a huge advantage. Head to head with a <insert mech> using <insert loadout> at <insert range>_ K, eat all of my damage, cya in 2 seconds to do it again. Or don't run and just out-damage them. I'm at the point where I charge 3-4 mechs on the AA for example and don't care, winning the fight often. Having 2 splash damage weapons helps 2+ vs 1 as well, as splash can hit multiple mechs at once.

These aren't even outlandish claims. The HEAT+GL combo DPS compares favorably with other high-DPS combinations. The difference is the abilities of HEAT+GL. All the damage is front-loaded/burst and gains those benefits. It's all AOE, and gains those benefits. It's versatile as it can snipe, bounce around corners, preform in close-range, generates no heat, lay mines, and can arc over cover. The A-class chassis' natural speed is great as taking full advatage of these benefits, to the point of really having no weaknesses. While I know personal stats matter little because of the amount of inexperienced players, I would also like to mention I had a 100% team win rate and roughly 5 or so K/D (I say had because the previously mentioned friends kinda fucked my stats up ).


I feel the above is a good argument for something being OP. So, can the sharpshooter compare_ It's got front-end/burst damage. It's accurate. It doesn't have much versatility though, no splash and very low normal DPS. Eeeeeh....no. It can't, it's just good at sniping which is simply a powerful strategy.

So yeah, I do feel the HEAT+GL doesn't belong on an A-class, as much fuucking fun as it is to play. I should probably make another thread on this topic....

[JustJake]

I never felt that the sharpshooter was OP, and I don't think twitch sniping is a FOOS. I wanted to see if the community's mind had changed about the sabot rifle issue.

NotKjell, on October 30 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

ESSAAAAAAAAAY POST

You make some great points. I'm not sure how I feel about the HEAT-packing INF in my gut yet. You totally scrambled me in a few games. It's very powerful against my Sharpshooter; I am weak against close range, high-speed opponents!

Edited by JustJake, October 30 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

I never felt that the sharpshooter was OP, and I don't think twitch sniping is a FOOS. I wanted to see if the community's mind had changed about the sabot rifle issue.

The core community of experienced players are fine with it.
You're probably just hearing the vocal minority of inexperienced newbies and witless noobs.

[NotKjell]

JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

I never felt that the sharpshooter was OP, and I don't think twitch sniping is a FOOS. I wanted to see if the community's mind had changed about the sabot rifle issue.

NotKjell, on October 30 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

ESSAAAAAAAAAY POST

You make some great points. I'm not sure how I feel about the HEAT-packing INF in my gut yet. You totally scrambled me in a few games. It's very powerful against my Sharpshooter; I am weak against close range, high-speed opponents!

Ah alright. I just saw a lot of back and forth posts between you and beeman, and got that impression. I was also to lazy to read the rest of the thread and felt like making that post.

[Rotaken]

Amount of essays in this thread have changed my way of perceiving world. Good job you guys, this was closest to constructive criticism I've seen in a long time ;D

Edited by Rotaken, October 31 2012 - 03:51 AM.

[MojoNixon]

I hadn’t had much issue with Infiltrators this beta cycle, until running into Coot, a fellow I remember from my alpha time.

Utterly destructive- and actually a very frightening game, just catching flashes out of the corner of my eyes- explosions and alarms all going off around me, while I assumed the fetal position in the cockpit.

I was the only player to kill him even a few times that match, and have definitely been top of the board in most of the pub games- my gut reaction is "hmm well maybe it is OP" but honestly in a good player's hands who’s in the zone I think a lot of the mechs could perform similarly.

Did make me wish i had bought the infilitrator (although played it to death in the alpha)- although I was able to make that c-class rockateer dance pretty nicely.

Edit: No Idea why my text isnt the right color, hopefully it changes.

Edited by MojoNixon, October 31 2012 - 04:28 AM.

[DarkPulse]

JustJake, on October 30 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Keeping the enemy dead is a pretty good loss-prevention strategy, which is why my team win percent is almost 75%.

It's effective in a few gametypes, but not all gametypes are so focused on just raking in the kills. The only places where killing is the end-all, be-all is DM and TDM. Siege and Missile Assault, deterrance is just as important (if not moreso) than raw kills. Especially since they have respawn penalty, which penalizies riskier play and a "give-me-your-gibs-gears" playstyle.

Having a high K/D means you basically hang back and snipe so hardly anybody ever kills you - therefore, it's hardly surprising you got it so high, but it's also not a pure measure of relative player skill, either - it means that, if anything, you're catching people unaware or else fighting complete newbies who have no idea how to counter a sniper. In a situation where you'd be forced to combat closer - like in Siege - I imagine you'd do a lot worse, especially since killing in Siege is sort of the secondary game (which is likely why your siege numbers are so low for that class - you likely switched to Assault for that, which is why that's L4).

It's not an unethical way to play Sharpshooter (it's a frickin' sniper, after all) but at the same time, a player can be a K/D Beast (not to be confused with Batman villain, KGBeast) and still be an active detriment to your team, if the enemy is able to get themselves into spots they can't shoot and thus successfully hold objectives due to the player prioritizing sniping and their K/D over actually helping achieve objectives.

Not trying to ride you personally, but everytime I see someone boasting about extremely high win percentages, and high K/Ds, it makes me shake my head. I'm trying to remind folks that K/D Ratio doesn't mean everything. I'd rather have a guy on my team going 1.0 but fighting his heart out for AA and EUs in Siege, than a guy going 3.0 who hangs back at base or at a safe spot and just picks some enemies off. Sure, he'll die more, but he's helping his team in more than a single way, and to me, he's therefore more valuable.

It's important, yes, and good to have high, but it's not the pure measure of player skill - again, I'd feel that an "artiifical" statistic of XP/Minute, or XPM, would be an accurate measure of who are "the best" players. In my case, I played about 23 hours (according to XFire, since Hawken seems to have no working "time played" stat yet) and earned 185,301 XP during this CB phase. If we assume 23 hours on the nose, that's 23 * 60 =  1,380 minutes. Divide that into my XP, and you get 185,301 / 1380 = 134.27 XP per minute, on average.

However, it is important to note that this stat can also be boosted by the XP booster (and I definitely made use of that), so there probably needs to be some kind of "baseline", pure-earned XP stat for this to become a viable statistic, where the game keeps track not only of how much XP you actually have, but how much you would have if you had not been using a booster.

Edited by DarkPulse, October 31 2012 - 06:14 AM.

[PiVoR]

Funny how topic has been derailed from TOW OP into SS OP and OPfiltrator OP.

NotKjell, on October 30 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Starcraft 2: 6 pool. The build order is literally just this - Do nothing. Build spawning pool when you finally have 200 minerals  Click 'build zergling' 3 times when the spawning pool finishes. Find opponents base and attack it. THAT'S IT, and you can get a win with it. 6 pool is by no means the most powerful strategy in the game (or even good), but it's the easiest thing in the game to do and get a win with against other newbies. For reference on what 'real' build orders can look like, here's JUST an opener http://wiki.teamliqu...FE_(vs._Terran)

6 pool is not FOOS in SC2, its very normal bulid now. It may counter greedy FE if you fail to wall yourself or you just skip wall at all, but thats it.

NotKjell, on October 30 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Call of Duty (and a million other shooters): The noob tube. Point, click. Insta-Kill anyone within 10 feet of where you clicked, no matter how good they are. The most well-known FOOS I think, and a good example of why. Depends on the game, but this can actually be high-level strategy too.

Noobtube isnt a issue since first Black Ops, right now in MW3 much more anoying is recoiless MP7 or ACR.

About everything else..  i actually agree, SS is strong in good hands, Brawler can just charge and demolish you with Flak. And opfiltrator is good like every other A class always was, much better speed with same damage output as other mech classes. And HEAT+GL+Detonator/HE charge still oneshots B mechs when specced into explosive damage.