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Don't Nerf, Buff Instead

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#1 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 04:06 AM

Hello all, ManlyManManson here,

In today's multiplayer video gaming world, we all know that we are quick to call "foul" once bested by another opponent. You have witnessed developers reacting in an extreme fashion to quell such claims. For those of you that have played Battlefield 3 may recall the whole Famas debacle. Was it too good_ Who can say, but enough complaints rose that DICE had decided to "re-balance" the gun by nerfing it into oblivion. It is no longer a viable option on the "battlefield" which is a shame. Variety is the spice of life after all.

Now, what does this have to do with Hawken_ Well, I'm glad you asked!

I have perused the forums and seen many posts about how "OP" the Assault mech is. To this I say, pish posh.

I have played about 15 hours (or more :P) using only the Assault mech since I didn't want to blow Meteor Points on all the mechs. I wanted to fiddle with all the customization options and also, you can buy internal parts and items to make you more effective! I have since then come to the conclusion the Assault mech is AWESOME.....once you start putting those tech points into their appropriate skill trees that suit your play style. Yes, stock Assault can hold its own against the other classes in 1v1 situations, but I think the biggest factor comes down to the pilot.

You need to dodge, keep in mind of heat levels, know your weapon cooldown times, etc, etc... and I believe, firmly, that THAT"S what makes Assault so effective once you have all these down to muscle memory.

Now, have I noticed some unfair situations in all my game time_ Of course. I will try to organize my thoughts as clearly as possible. Exclaimer: I was using the Assault mech the entire time. Now let's get started.


Light Mechs:
-I noticed that pilots in the Beserker mech would be constantly in the air, jumping/floating above me, this leads me to believe that the lighter mechs have more fuel at their disposal. This is good.
-Even though free to test drive, I passed on the Infiltrator mech. Gameplay style it promoted was too campy in my eyes and I felt the Assault's Heat Sink ability fit my play-style much better.
-I didn't put tech points into movement until MUCH later, yet I found myself matching strafing speeds with the lighter mechs. Assuming all stock mechs, Lighter variants should be overall much quicker. This could be "OP" since both Light and Medium mechs share some weapons. To fix this, Lighter mechs should have a weaker assault rifle (call it something else) and the sub machine should remain the same but should have lower heat output (not substantially mind you)
-In my eyes, lighter mechs are the ones that zip about, whether at medium range with a weaker assault rifle, or up close and personal to dodge enemy attacks yet able to maintain firepower output with a lower heat output SMG. This is to make sure the Light mech stands a chance against the more heavily armored Medium/Heavy mechs.


Medium Mechs:
-Ok, I'll admit, I dislike snipers in any game. I haven't played sharpshooter so I am not sure whether the hipfire of the main sniper is spot on or if you have to zoom in first in order to fire accurately. Someone, please inform me below. I believe sniping in Hawken needs to take an approach similar to TF2. The longer one is scoped in, the more powerful the shot, but NO headshots. A fully charged shot should not destroy stock lighter mechs. I say this because 1v1 encounters with Sharpshooters feels one sided. I feel as if their heavy hitting sniper rifle should not be as damaging unless scoped in.
-Another note on charging mechanic: One needs to hold down the fire button ONLY IF scoped in. They shouldn't be able to shoot a fully charged sniper round with the same accuracy as the assault rifle.
-The Assault class is the most balanced class in the game, in my opinion. Should not be as mobile as Lighter mechs and can deliver a powerful payload thanks to the TOW launcher. I firmly believe that the Medium mechs need to be the standard as far as fuel consumption/agility/firepower are considered.
-Yes, I was tearing face with the Assault mech, but only after I applied those tech points and picked my internal parts/items did the mech really shine :)  Your mech only becomes more powerful the more you use it, so knowing all the gameplay mechanics I do now, I would love to venture into other classes.


Heavy Mechs:
-The Brawler mech's special ability. Is one able to rotate around 360 degrees as easily as one not in turtle mode_ I'm not sure, but I think the turning radius of one in turtle mode should be MUCH slower to allow other mechs the chance to dash around behind the turtler. I'm not sure, but has anyone noticed that engaging a turtled Brawler from behind has the same defensive capability as the front_ I've noticed a couple of times that behind a turtled Brawler is just as defensively tough as the front, this needs to be dealt with. I'm ok with the turtled Brawler still firing weapons if the aforementioned suggestions were implemented. Thoughts_
-The Rocketeer class looks like a lot of fun. I absolutely destroy them because I am more mobile than they and just dodge their incoming volleys. Although, if it were a seasoned pilot, they would know to fire their payload only when they're sure the enemy has exhausted their fuel reserves. In the meantime, they need to be dodging as well.
-I noticed, when battling the Heavy mechs, that they do take more of a beating and do move slower than the lighter mechs. Keep as is.


Items:
-Alrighty, first off is the turret. I hate the turret. I was so confused when I saw a person deploying one down and camping by it. I was upset and thought it was unfair. "This is a mech game where pilots go head to head against each other," were the first thoughts that popped into my head. Fuming, I left that lobby and purchased the rocket turret first. Rocket turret is garbage but I can see it defending points pretty well. I opted for the MG Turret, and honestly, it's what helps me do so well. I feel dirty for using it because yeah, I do stay near it and it does such a good job distracting my opponents. Especially on Deathmatch! I went on a 20 killstreak with the help of the MG turret, but it couldn't be all my fault. My enemies knew there was a turret there yet didn't destroy it. It is EXTREMELY susceptible to explosive weapons and don't even bother to just stand there and try to take it out with just an assault rifle. I don't know, the MG turret helps me out so much, but I wouldn't be sad to see it go. What do you all think about the turret_
-The Shield is good, i think. Are you still supposed to take damage from explosions when inside the shield_ I still do and I think that's a good thing because you can still fire from inside it. It isn't an impenetrable shield that you can fight behind and I like that. Maybe add the gameplay mechanic where if you decide to drop BOTH shields at once, then you are truly impenetrable_ I mean, it's not like you are able to resupply more items in a single life.
-EMP blast is soooo much fun! Aw man, I like to call my items my "Bag of Tricks" because nothing is as tricky as being on low health, having your enemy know this, try to engage you, you're down to your last breath, and then......EMP blast. They look at you with disbelief, you rush them, blow them sky high, and laugh as you repair drone over their burning metal carcass! It's a maniacal laugh because it's so dirty and evil of an item.......or, you end up EMP'ing both you and your enemy. You dash away, he chases, weapons come online, and you're respawning from your garage again :(
-HE Charge is meh. I like having a 3rd weapon to deal massive damage against the Heavy mechs but I believe there is some input lag between pushing the HE Charge button and your mech actually deploying said charge. The deployment of the charge needs to be instantaneous because the pilot is already dealing with the awkward arc/lob the charge travels. Having to take account of the pause after you push the button and the arc the charge travels is needlessly difficult.
-These are the items that I use, the others just don't appeal to me :)


Final Thoughts:
In making this post , I realize that the gameplay mechanics of Hawken are so close to being perfect, they just need some fine tuning, but I think the main reason why people get so upset about the Assault class is because they don't know what internals parts are being used and what skill tree the enemy pilot is putting points into. Instead of a blank rotating screen one receives after death, I think you should be getting information about the mech that just destroyed you.

How many hours played, Pilot's K/D with that mech, what weapon killed you, LEVEL of the weapon that killed you (Seriously, what do weapon levels do_ I hope decrease heat and make that gun more powerful!), Pilot's name, Clan tag, Join Date, Pilot Rank, etc...

This information will assuage the rage building in the deceased, for a major chunk of why one gets upset is the feeling that the enemy is using these "unknown" tactics to win. This is a F2P game after all  we don't want to scare off the player base, but to grow it.

The secret to winning these mechanical encounters shouldn't be this god class, or a particular mech setup, but should FALL ONTO THE PILOT'S SHOULDERS THEMSELVES! The mech is a tool, it doesn't matter if you put a more explosive % internal offensive part in your mech if you don't utilize your explosives effectively! Sure, Lighter mechs are faster, but the pilot needs to be conscious of fuel consumption! Yes, Heavy mechs are tanks! THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU SHOULDN'T BOOST SIDEWAYS AND STILL ACTIVELY AVOID INCOMING FIRE!!! I've seen this so much in the game, pilots not using their mech effectively.

Please, as always, give feedback and discuss! This is my take on the game from an Assault mech user! I've been looking for a mech combat game FOREVER. Seriously! I played Mechwarrior 1-4 (Vengeance and Mercenaries) and LOOOOOVED the Armored Core games on Playstation 2. Nowadays, all we get are these "realistic" military FPS and quite frankly I'm sick of it!

Oh, don't even mention that new Mechwarrior MMO. It's an abomination. Well, last time I played...

Edited by ManlyManManson, October 29 2012 - 04:32 AM.


#2 Chig

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Posted October 29 2012 - 04:22 AM

Your post is pure gold. You should get an award of some sort for it :)

I agree. I mostly play Berserker and I have no trouble taking down Medium and Heavy mechs. Tactics - that's all you need :)

Edited by Chig, October 29 2012 - 04:22 AM.


#3 CakeBandit

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Posted October 29 2012 - 04:55 AM

ManlyManManson, it would be an honor to blow the hell out of your turrets. This kind of analytical post is EXACTLY what we need more of around here.

I'm inclined to disagree with you in regards to the HE charge though. That firing delay is there to discourage it as an immediate damage-dealing measure. I believe the weapon is intended as a means to push people out of cover and un-turret turrets (Player and automatic). Bear in mind that the HE charge doesn't prime until it bounces once, so if you can get a handle on the arc of it, it's incredibly long-ranged and actually pretty accurate.

I'll also mention the fact that you don't need to be inside the shield to feel its benefit. If you're taking too much explosive damage while you're in the shield just move to the far side of it. It's easier for someone to pop up and over it, but that's going to burn their fuel and hamstring their mobility while you return fire.
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#4 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 05:14 AM

View PostCakeBandit, on October 29 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

I'm inclined to disagree with you in regards to the HE charge though. That firing delay is there to discourage it as an immediate damage-dealing measure. I believe the weapon is intended as a means to push people out of cover and un-turret turrets (Player and automatic). Bear in mind that the HE charge doesn't prime until it bounces once, so if you can get a handle on the arc of it, it's incredibly long-ranged and actually pretty accurate.

I will have to tool around with the charge some more. I just got so used to having that turret! :P I wish Adhesive would give us Meteor Points enough to fully buy everything and test drive every nuance! Much like what SOE did for its Planetside 2 beta

#5 Immie

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Posted October 29 2012 - 05:30 AM

There is no such thing as nerfing. You may think they are reducing one weapon's damage, but they are actually buffing every other weapon's damage and increasing all health to compensate.


My point being: whether something is made stronger or weaker is irrelevant. All that matters is that it's balanced at the end of the day. Just because one thing got nerfed to uselessness does not mean that an OP weapon can't be nerfed and then balanced. Honestly, your post doesn't really have a whole lot to do with the whole nerf/buff thing, but the whole "Don't Nerf, Buff Instead" train of thought is ridiculous, and I felt like pointing that out.

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#6 Juodvarnis

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Posted October 29 2012 - 05:34 AM

View PostImmie, on October 29 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

There is no such thing as nerfing. You may think they are reducing one weapon's damage, but they are actually buffing every other weapon's damage and increasing all health to compensate.


My point being: whether something is made stronger or weaker is irrelevant. All that matters is that it's balanced at the end of the day. Just because one thing got nerfed to uselessness does not mean that an OP weapon can't be nerfed and then balanced. Honestly, your post doesn't really have a whole lot to do with the whole nerf/buff thing, but the whole "Don't Nerf, Buff Instead" train of thought is ridiculous, and I felt like pointing that out.
^^This
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*sigh*

#7 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 06:49 AM

View PostImmie, on October 29 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

There is no such thing as nerfing. You may think they are reducing one weapon's damage, but they are actually buffing every other weapon's damage and increasing all health to compensate.


My point being: whether something is made stronger or weaker is irrelevant. All that matters is that it's balanced at the end of the day. Just because one thing got nerfed to uselessness does not mean that an OP weapon can't be nerfed and then balanced. Honestly, your post doesn't really have a whole lot to do with the whole nerf/buff thing, but the whole "Don't Nerf, Buff Instead" train of thought is ridiculous, and I felt like pointing that out.

This is perfect! Differing opinions are joining the fray! Although you do not agree with the format of my post, allow me to point out some inconsistencies in your reply.

Firstly, how you describe the buff/nerf scenario is much akin to the half full/empty glass of milk situation. At the end of the day, there is a level of milk that has been reached, but to you it's "irrelevant" whether someone poured/drank halfway as long as there is milk (the balanced game.) Query: How is one to reach this level of balance_ How that level of milk came to be is extremely important! If someone had poured it, it would be fresh. Should someone with a contagious disease have drank from the glass, you run the risk of becoming sick. My point is that how we reach this finished product (glass of milk) is just as important as drinking the milk itself (playing finished balanced product.)

I'm sorry, but it seems that you have not read my post in its entirety. The overall message that I wanted to send to the devs was not to be so hasty as to make rash decisions by buffing/nerfing mechanics that would ultimately hurt the balance of the game. Instead of adding to my post, you took the time to bash an idea that you have not come to grips yet. You want a balanced game yet have not provided any constructive feedback in order to attain this ultimate goal we both share :)

#8 Immie

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Posted October 29 2012 - 07:16 AM

I did read your post, I just didn't really respond to it, since it was a lot more reasonable than the title. :P

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#9 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 07:56 AM

So I was using the HE charges again just now and I gotta say that I was mistaken about how they are implemented. Their is no input lag, there  is just a cooldown between dropping both charges. A mechanic that I do agree with. Good item, keep as is!

#10 CakeBandit

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Posted October 29 2012 - 09:32 AM

I knew you'd see the beauty of it.
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#11 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 10:08 AM

Haha! Quite :)

#12 CakeBandit

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Posted October 29 2012 - 10:39 AM

i think that it there definitely needs to be more obvious feedback about its status in the HUD. A lot of things really need more feedback.

Taking damage

Reloading

Hitting the enemy.

Vertical height limit.
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#13 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 10:40 AM

I know for me personally, the audio cues coming from the cockpit need to be louder. I need to know when I've hit critical armor and so forth.





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