91 replies to this topic

[Elix]

Something that people are forgetting: "A mech game" is a sentence that describes the theme of the game (mechs), not the mechanical genre (i.e., fps, sim, rail shooter, etc.). That's all. Everything beyond that is the pile of automatic assumptions and biases in each reader's head.

Edited by Elix, November 04 2012 - 11:00 PM.

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[NC37]

What is it to me...a FPS meets arcade style mech combat. It has strong potential for objective based gameplay. Mechs are not giant lumbering clunkers and are designed for quick engagements then blow up or fall apart. If an anime, It would fall into the genre I categorize as Dirty Mecha. Mechs are not glamorized and combat is much closer. The king of this genre would be the Broken Blade series.

What it isn't...It isn't a game that has the killer hook yet. Its good yes, but not really anything we haven't seen in other forms. As it sits, it is not a game I want to spend a lot of money on. I don't mind paying in full for it once but I can see pay 2 win features being added and so I likely won't support it heavily. Course I'm a staunch opponent of F2P gaming. All the models I've seen end up ripping people off more than not. F2P rarely means quality to me. Just a lot of cheap Chinese knockoffs of JRPGs.

It isn't a game that will be free of the dregs of gamer society. The XBL style Halo, CoD players. The ones which should have their vocal cords permanently removed. Voice chat does this. Unfortunately I don't see much of a way around it. I had more than one match in Alpha and Beta where a guy just went bonkers over voice about it like his life depended on the match.

Is that ok_ It doesn't need a killer hook right now. But I think the gametypes and modes present will not be enough. Same with the maps. Potential is there. So yes. But as for the F2P...no its not ok. I'd like at least a season pass option. Good for a year of play and free DLCs.

Player bit is not ok. game needs a mute or kick vote option. Even if abused, behavior of these types of players is sub human and should not be tolerated.

[AsianJoyKiller]

NC37, on November 05 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

What it isn't...It isn't a game that has the killer hook yet. Its good yes, but not really anything we haven't seen in other forms. As it sits, it is not a game I want to spend a lot of money on. I don't mind paying in full for it once but I can see pay 2 win features being added and so I likely won't support it heavily. Course I'm a staunch opponent of F2P gaming. All the models I've seen end up ripping people off more than not. F2P rarely means quality to me. Just a lot of cheap Chinese knockoffs of JRPGs.

Is that ok_ It doesn't need a killer hook right now. But I think the gametypes and modes present will not be enough. Same with the maps. Potential is there. So yes. But as for the F2P...no its not ok. I'd like at least a season pass option. Good for a year of play and free DLCs.

I don't see why people think that the game is heading, or could head in the p2w direction.
It's already been stated by the devs that they are very against that, and there's been absolutely no indication that the game is going that way. And the argument that experience boosters are p2w is extremely flawed. That is a simple exchange of time for money. There is nothing you can gain from a booster that you can't gain without one.

On the basis of needing a "hook", I think, and I'm not alone in this, that Hawken already has a great hook, and that is the combat.
The pacing, the weapons, the movement, all of it is actually rather addictive. You can see it by all the appreciation threads. I'm not in some minority here, there are a lot of people who enjoy what Hawken is currently.
It doesn't need a hook, because it already has it.
And I've never expected Hawken to be anything but what it has proven to be. I signed up for Hawken months before the first Alpha even started. I had actually waited long enough that I forgot about it when I got my Alpha invite.
But when I got in, why I surprised by what Hawken was_ Not at all. What I was surprised by, was how polished it felt, despite being an Alpha. I was surprised by how they seemed to know exactly what they wanted and nailed it so early on.
To me and many others, it feels like they already have their hook, and all that needs doing is the refining of a few details here and there.

[Garuda]

I love it how TemperWolf is just not responding to any of this.
OP is just liking replies.

But don't mind me gentlemen and ladies, let us continue this sophisticated discussion.

[The_Silencer]

Sure.. Hawken is not TimeShift.

[TemperWolf]

Well let's take a moment to think. I think NC37 may be on to something. Does Hawken really have a hook_ And if it really does, is it as strong as some think it is (AsianJoyKiller)_ Hawken is entering the FPS Free to Play Arena with microtranactions as a primary source of revenue since they are not opting for box or digital copy sales yet to our knowledge. Like the MMORPG market, the DOTA marker, the RTS market... oversaturation of games is actually one of te biggest threats to developers these days. This oversauration can potentially harm the game much more than community, graphics, gameplay, etc.

When I look at the online lists of F2P FPS Arenas I see one thing that Hawken has over everything else, Graphics.

The game looks awesome, there is no denial. Thelevel of detail put in and the very feel and fluidity of the game is rock solid. They certainly have captured the essense of style that many Mech in the past have had as well as giving it a goof twist of their own. The game looks like a top shelf AAA title and makes some absolutely beautiful screenshots and even some pretty sweet videos.

Yet this is a common flaw with a lot of AAA titles these days, they always look beautiful --- but lack the depth in gameplay that so many like. I think NC37 is right, the game lacks a good hook to really keep people coming for a long term period. Once the style has worn off, is the remaining game deep enough and diverse enouh, offer a rich system to compete with several other shooters and hold an audience_ Of what I've seen and played of the game, I'm going to argue that right now I feel it does not.

I recommend that they focus on the idea of expanding the Mech portion of the game. Instead of investing real-money into purely cosmetic things, they really should allow all parts and all things to be purchased through hard-erned in-game currency. On top of that, allow people to mix and match parts, including weapons, at their leasure. Let's face it, giving people the power to build gives people a reason to keep playing. If you have to spend to much real money, that sort of defeats the point of playing the game.

Edited by TemperWolf, November 05 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I'd argue solid combat will give people a reason to play much more than advanced customization.
After all, you could customize the fuzzy bunny out of a mech, but if actually playing a match isn't fun, then no amount of customization will help. For shooter fans, I think we see the depth of gameplay in the combat. It's simple enough that it's fairly accessible to people of all skill levels, yet the skill ceiling is actually quite high.

Honestly, I think the problem with your side of the argument is that you are, admittedly, not a fan of shooters. Right away, that puts you at odds with at least half of the core elements of the game. And I'd argue the most important elements, because like I said before, if the core gameplay doesn't grab you, then no amount of customization or gimmicks will help keep you engaged in the long term.

Also, please stop referring to customization as the "mech" element of the game.
"Mech" does not equal customization. All it means is that your primary interface with the game, that is, how you interact with others in a match, is through a mech.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 05 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Brave_Sir_Robin]

[TemperWolf]

Let me clarify a little because I think I'm not being clear enough, which may be leading to some confusion on my point of view on your part there AsianJoyKiller. I agree with you that solid combat can and will give people a reason to play. Since I've spent a lot more time in various Mech titles, I actually have a tendancy to relate Customization to Solid Combat --- that is and always has been the core of any Mech game.

Customization is not about looks, it's not about putting bunny ears or a football helmet onto your mech. Customization is about loadout; weapons organization and development; the structure of the team, the type of ammo you use; and more. While some may agrue "That will only serve to over complicate the game and make it unfun for people who just want to jump in smash and bash." -- I say that perhaps they may be correct, but not exactly right.

People fear that most players will just find the best handful of weapons, mech size, etc --- and just play that over and over and over again. Well, that may work for Deathmatch games, but Hawken sports a lot of other avenues and seems to supply quite a bit towards team structures games. Will those team structures games fall into disfavor_ Only if the game doesn't do well to support itself and the population dwindles. This can accore for a number of reasons, mainly oversaturation, competition, hackers, etc.. Too many to count.

But in any Mech game, there has always been the people who saught out the best weapons combinations and they always did well in 1v1 style duels. Yet this game isn't about 1v1 duels.

I think Armored Core V had a really good idea: Weapon Tweaking.

Indeed, Weapon Tweaking was a gamble and something of a gimick, but it had a good idea. Allow a player to buy a weapon then allow them to customize it by giving it one of three different influence paths. These influences could be Weapon Strength, Range, and Rate of Fire --- they could even personalize the weapon by renaming it however they wanted.

• Weapon Strength would increase the Power & Ammo, but reduce the Accuracy and Range.
  
• Range would increase the distance it can travel & power & accuracy, but reduce the Rate of Fire and Ammo.
  
• Rate of Fire would increase the speed in which rounds were fired and the ammo it can hold, but reduce Range, Power, and Accuracy.

The results of these were always random, but required the player also take the weapon into combat and level it up just to see the results of each effect. A player could fully level it, then buy a new version of the weapon and do it again to see if they got better or worse results. Afterward they could sell the one they didn't want back to the store to make some money back towards buying a new weapon, etc.

But of course a system like this would mean that we'd need a store which would allow a currency that players could earn and continue to spend buying and selling parts. Most mech games have stores like this anyway and probably should be highly considered by Hawken Developers. Everything should have a real money & a Hawken cash, nothing should be exclusive to a certain kind of currency --- just my opinion.

But this is just one of many kinds of systems which kept people playing the game. Systems like this lead to people customizing a machine, that customization then leads into combat, and the experience they have in combat with their customized loadout should lead a solid feeling.

Let's not forget that a player does get solid satisfaction of just beating down people with a loadout they've spent a lot of time tweaking, it's not always twitch-combat skill over someone else --- we're not all Koreans.

Oh and one more thing. EDIT***

People who are not savvy to customization can purchase a combination of Popular Parts Package off the store which pretty much can be a collection of mech parts, sub parts, etc... based on a player style of their choosing that can be organized by the store itself. Playstyles being: Infiltrator, sniper, assault, whatever.. But if the game has a store, then it will be able to track how many people buy certain parts of a class, not to mention track how people are putting them together in a certain weight class too.

The game could be programmed to provide the Parts Packages which change week to week, so that even new players can jump in and enjoy the flavor of the month without feeling stupid.

Edit #2

Quote - We're also announcing that we'll be offering pre-sale bundle packages to kick off this event. HAWKEN fans can join the Vanguard Initiative by purchasing one of four bundles. Bundles will be pre-sold at a discount here on PlayHawken.com and will be priced at $5, $15, $30, and $60. Items and currencies granted by these bundles will be in pilots' mech garages at Open Beta on December 12, 2012 (12/12/12).

Clearly they already have a scheme in place, so pretty much any recommendation towards a better structured garage, shop, customization, etc... Are highly likely to be ignored. Which is sad.

Edited by TemperWolf, November 05 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I think that the core of a mech game is to try and translate to the user the feel of a sort of mech they are piloting, rather than customizing your loadout to what you want.
For instance, in Zone of the Enders, the feeling you're supposed to get from that is a sort of mech that is the nimble, graceful feel of Japanese mecha and the ability to control it as almost as an extension of your body. With a game like Armored Core or Mechwarrior, it's more about the technical side of things, getting that feeling of being a pilot trying to tweak to the mech to fit you exactly.

As far as I can tell, the point we disagree on really is how far to go with customization.
Personally, I think it's pretty good now. Using the optimization trees you can get the mech to handle how you want, whether you like a nimble, speedy one, a tanky one that'll outlast it's opponent or a mech that has a little extra "oomph" to it's guns. Internals go a ways to help this too. I think this is a great place for customization of the mech to be. It's very accessible, but depending on how you spend your optimization points you can have a very different experience than someone else, even if they're using the same mech and weapons.
Really, the optimization trees act like parts, but they aren't tied to specific pieces and don't affect cosmetic options.
Once you get into the realm of purchasing parts and trying to find what fits you best, that's when you are starting to get into the "Mech sim" aspect of things, and I don't think that's where Hawken should be at.
To me, Hawken is a streamlined western-styled mech experience that focuses on combat heavily, with enough customization to make sure that you're not stuck using the exact same mech that everyone else uses.

On the topic of weapons, I had the pleasure of playing during the Alpha, and at that time weapon loadouts weren't so... restricted. I think if they add back the classes that got removed or allow for a greater selection of weapons (without having to level to 20 first, which is stupid), that this wouldn't seem like as much of a problem.
That said, I really wouldn't mind there were just 3 weight classes and you could just pick and choose what weapons (or abilities) you could use. Of course, I'd still want a separation of primary and secondary weapons, and restrictions based on weight class.

[PsychoTick]

Hawken is fine where it is at for customization.
It's a first person shooter. It's a mech game.

You are able to change your loadout (which I do believe should be expanded), you are able to change small aspects of your mech, and you are able to modify small talents in a tree.
You don't need anything more. You want it to be a fuzzy bunny' clone of AC or MW- that's not where it is supposed to go!

It's a shooter. It's a mech shooter. If you don't like it because it feels like a shooter- you don't like it!