47 replies to this topic

[Devildoc]

In most the games I join, 80% of the people playing are in sharpshooter mechs, the people with the best K/D/A ratios, sharpshooter mechs, and I feel they are more powerful than they were CBT1 where they were already quite strong.

I liked the brawler CBT1, but CBT2_  Pointless to try playing one.  3 shot by sharpshooters even speccing into defense.

I hope this trend is being noticed.

People say "oh the class isn't OP, we're just good" or "more people play them because they're the most fun" ... yeah, because they're hands down the most effective mechs in the game.

I honestly don't enjoy testing when this is such a glaring issue.

Edited by Devildoc, November 10 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[wikt]

Devildoc, on November 10 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

People say "oh the class isn't OP, we're just good" or "more people play them because they're the most fun" ... yeah, because they're hands down the most effective mechs in the game.

I think I was just in this game with you where the sharpshooters where saying that, and I agree 100% with you.

IMO the problem isn't the amount of damage they can do, it's the amount of damage they can take RELATIVE to the damage they can do. This leads me to think they should really be a Class A mech. Almost every sharpshooter I see isn't 'sharpshooting' at all. they're running-and-gunning around like assault mechs which seems kind of retarded. Any half decent sharpshooter can hold up to an assault mech in CQB which I think is where the problem lies.

[Silk_Sk]

Ah, a sharpshooter is OP complaint. How nostalgic. Sorry, this isn't Alpha 2 anymore, and even then it was mostly all about the Assault mech. Infiltrator is the hot topic now.

(I assume it's okay to casually mention Alpha 2 balancing as long as I don't give any details_)

Edited by Silk_Sk, November 10 2012 - 05:16 AM.

[PiVoR]

I see like more of a Assaults mechs.. oh wait..
But imo Assault rifle is the only OP thing right now. Ammount of damage this can pump with so little up time is ridiculous.

[Devildoc]

Silk_Sk, on November 10 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Ah, a sharpshooter is OP complaint. How nostalgic. Sorry, this isn't Alpha 2 anymore, and even then it was mostly all about the Assault mech. Infiltrator is the hot topic now.

(I assume it's okay to casually mention Alpha 2 balancing as long as I don't give any details_)

Maybe Infiltrator's stronger (but probably has a higher learning curve and is weaker to taking damage, I was killing infiltrator's in just a couple of shots as a sharpshooter), but sharpshooter is stronger relative to the amount of effort put in.

Now I didn't do great but in a game just a bit ago I went 0-3-0 in a brawler (never saw myself get blown up that fast before as a brawler with over 900 health), I switched to Sharpshooter and went 8-6-4.  I would have been much more positive if I'd started in a Sharpshooter to begin with, and my sharpshooter is level 0.and I haven't hardly played it at all.

Now 2 factors in play here.

Sharpshooters need looked at for being a bit too strong,
and Class C mechs need a lot of love.

[defekt]

Two hitscan weapons that dish out 'no risk' (cf. self splash) front-loaded damage that also retain full DPS at all ranges, for an fps game that isn't set in a series of tiny rooms, will always be maximally impactful.  The fact that you can load these weapons onto a pretty tough B-class chassis is just gravy.  Entirely predictable story is entirely predictable.

That being said, these characteristics only help you score kills and that doesn't always win you the game.  Only last night I played a Missile Assault game against a team comprised of only Sharpshooters and Assaults (I'm seeing this rather boring team composition an awful lot in CB2).  They wracked up 58 kills to our 36 but they still lost the match - and by no small margin either: we were over 800 base points clear.  Unfortunately that loss did almost nothing to dent their XP earn rate; you still get more reward for kills than you do for mission activities and if anything needs to be changed it should probably be that.  (If the devs want a match win to really mean something then it absolutely needs to be worth more in terms of reward/progression than any other activity, cf., only going for KDR.)  Point being that teamwork can overcome, but don't be lulled into a false sense of balance about that: good teamwork using Sharpshooters and Assaults(/Infiltrators¹ - maybe) is still, arguably, the most effective combination in the game right now.

Until the already announced significant balance changes filter down to us the above is likely going to remain being the state of the game.  Yes, it's a bit wonky but there's no sense in throwing in the towel about it because a) it has been noticed and b) it will be changing.  Just play the game, go crazy with wild/daft combinations solely for the sh_ts and giggles of it -- who gives a sideways fuzzy bunny about KDR and the other stats, they're all being wiped before release anyway -- and enjoy the kind of game play that you'll likely never see again²; after all, that's mostly why we've just been given another lump of MPs to p_ss up the wall.

Party on, dudes! \m/

¹ The Infiltrator is strong at the moment for similar reasons that the Sharpshooter is: its weapons (HEAT + GL) all lash out maximum front-loaded pain.  However, the Infiltrator trades the Sharpshooter's 'no risk' hitscan damage and full DPS at all ranges for mobility.  None of the other classes seem to make even trades in this regard, i.e., they often end up somewhat deficient on one aspect, which is one reason why these other classes are scarce at present.  
² Anyone who took part in the Alphas will already be onboard with this concept.

Edit: Turing off those damn smilies.

Edited by defekt, November 10 2012 - 05:49 AM.

[RedVan]

Sharpshooter has a much higher penalty for missing.  Long reload times.  Also, the sabat needs to be zoomed to be used effectively.  Try playing that close range against a good player.  They'll dodge out of view in no time.

Assault (the real class that most people use) you don't need to zoom, you just track your target.  Infiltrator (the real class that can be considered "OP", if any) you also dont need to zoom, and it has excessive damage for the amount of maneuverability it has.

If you're dying to a sharpshooter, you're doing something wrong.  Simple as that.  Or, the sharpshooter is actually good.

TBH, I rarely see a sharpshooter with the best KD (unless it's me of course).

[Pursang]

If you're just standing around in the open waiting to be hit, then you're doing it wrong...

[RedVan]

I played in a match where i was the only sharpshooter, everyone else was assault.  It didn't go so well for me until I switched to an easier class

[Korriban87]

I play sharpie every time, but
1. I've never seen games full of us, although I've seen games full of C-type mech and they fuzzy bunny us by spawn killing us with lock on missles.
2.Best K/D ratio_ May be, if you're good like me at ninjastealing other players' enemies and staying out of sight most time then yes... but i've seen assaults and infiltrators doing even better than me.... and me sharpie vs an assult or infil close combat ends up with me dying 4/5

You just need to outsmart the sniper, your map awareness cannot be just good, you have to be a goddamn mentalist.

[JustJake]

I was the kill-leader sharpshooter in the game that Wikt and Devildoc was talking about. I gotta point out one thing: I was 27-and-0, nomcopter (my friend and teammate) was 19-and-1, and the rest of the Sharpshooters, on both teams, were like 2-and-10. Both Nomcopter and I have been playing since A2. We're pretty good at the game by now, but most sharpshooters (and players in general) are trash.

That's why you see such heavy sharpshooter play right now. The front-loaded damage and long reload speed are really easy to punish -- the meta just hasn't adapted yet. I get slaughtered by type-A players who move, and type-C players who have the flak cannon. These are good counters.

Next time you're getting killed by a sharpshooter, hide, repair while he closes, then pop out and get up in his face with dodge.

If you want to see a very in-depth discussion about the Sharpshooter, and it's pros and cons, please refer to this thread from CB1: http://community.pla...__20#entry80561

Edited by JustJake, November 10 2012 - 06:18 AM.

[nomcopter]

Most games we rarely see sharpshooters besides ourselves. And if so, they do no better than any other class. In that game with DevilDoc, most players tried to engage us from afar without even moving. This game takes a bit to get used to, and experienced players will obviously have the upper hand.

[Devildoc]

JustJake, on November 10 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I was the kill-leader sharpshooter in the game that Wikt and Devildoc was talking about. I gotta point out one thing: I was 27-and-0, nomcopter (my friend and teammate) was 19-and-1, and the rest of the Sharpshooters, on both teams, were like 2-and-10. Both Nomcopter and I have been playing since A2. We're pretty good at the game by now, but most sharpshooters (and players in general) are trash.

That's why you see such heavy sharpshooter play right now. The front-loaded damage and long reload speed are really easy to punish -- the meta just hasn't adapted yet. I get slaughtered by type-A players who move, and type-C players who have the flak cannon. These are good counters.

Next time you're getting killed by a sharpshooter, hide, repair while he closes, then pop out and get up in his face with dodge.

If you want to see a very in-depth discussion about the Sharpshooter, and it's pros and cons, please refer to this thread from CB1: http://community.pla...__20#entry80561

Yours wasn't the only game, I just went into about 4 more with about 80% sharpshooters, a few assaults, odd infiltrator.  Nobody used C classes.

[wikt]

RedVan, on November 10 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Sharpshooter has a much higher penalty for missing.

And a much higher reward for hitting, giving players with good ping and any semblance of skill a massive advantage (particularly with the slug rifle).

RedVan, on November 10 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

  Long reload times.
  

I've seen people mitigating this with the tech tree lately, to great effect.

RedVan, on November 10 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Also, the sabat needs to be zoomed to be used effectively.
  

No, it doesn't. I've had many sharpshooters simply run up to me point blank and blast away unzoomed.

RedVan, on November 10 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Try playing that close range against a good player.  They'll dodge out of view in no time.

  

A sharpshooter can dodge just as well as any other type B mech.

The point I'm trying to make is that people are able to play sharpshooters as assault mechs, while still retaining the long range effectiveness inherent to the class. Also to those people saying they aren't seeing many sharpshooters in their matches, are we playing the same game_

Edited by wikt, November 10 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[JustJake]

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

giving players with good ping any semblance of skill a massive advantage (particularly with the slug rifle).

The slug rifle has lower DPS than the assault rifle, or even the SMG. And the AR can hit at rather long ranges if you don't hold it down non-stop.

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

I've seen people mitigating this with the tech tree lately, to great effect.

There's two special weapon increases in Hawken -- one is an internal, the other is a -0.25 second boost in the attack skill tree. The sabot rifle is still way slower than a grenade launcher or TOW rocket. As a sharpshooter in TDM I spend 50% of my time running behind corners, lurking there while my sabot recharges, and punishing people who chase me.

Here's my sharpshooter skill tree:

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Also to those people saying they aren't seeing many sharpshooters in their matches, are we playing the same game_

nomcopter only sees people who manage to kill him :-/

There's tons of sharpshooters who just stand there trying to out-DPS assaults or brawlers, and it just doesn't work. They might get a lucky kill on a low-health enemy here or there, but they're pretty darn ineffective in general.

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

people are able to play sharpshooters as assault mechs, while still retaining the long range effectiveness inherent to the class.

And I can take out new-comers at long range with judicial use of my Assault Rifle with the Assault. Mechs don't need to by closely pigeon holed. It's really hard (and a real roll of the dice) to get those no-scope sabot rifle shots to hit. It's a last-ditch strategy, and if the sharpshooter misses with that close-range sabot shot, then its game over for them: if you're running a mech with an AR and you're touching a sharpshooter (so they have no where to hide while the sabot reloads) then you should be able to kill them before they can get a second shot off.

I don't think the sharpshooter is OP. I think it has some low-hanging kill fruit: burst damage from across the map makes it easy to get last-hit kills on weakened enemies. BUT HEY -- that's what a sharpshooter is supposed to do!

If you're frustrated that you get destroyed by a sharpshooter in close combat, maybe it's just because they're better than you instead of wielding some vast inherit class advantage.

Two things frighten me in one-on-ones as a sharpshooter:

• a class-C mech with a flak cannon
  
• an opponent who can play

I'll get my face melted by anyone who can effectively use dodge, cover, and their secondary weapon. Class A mechs generally do better against me (they've got a lot more dodge and run-away), but I'm absolutely terrified by a player like Saer in any mech class.

[nomcopter]

When it comes down to it my response to an enemy is based more on their username than their class. And if it's a name I recognize from alpha or a more recent skilled player I know to use every item and tactic at my disposal.
Furthermore, JustJake and I always roamed together and communicate on voice. When any team focuses fire properly and sticks together they gain a huge advantage. Our edge stems from our experience coupled with the ability to coordinate fire and tactics.

[Devildoc]

JustJake, on November 10 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

giving players with good ping any semblance of skill a massive advantage (particularly with the slug rifle).

The slug rifle has lower DPS than the assault rifle, or even the SMG. And the AR can hit at rather long ranges if you don't hold it down non-stop.

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

I've seen people mitigating this with the tech tree lately, to great effect.

There's two special weapon increases in Hawken -- one is an internal, the other is a -0.25 second boost in the attack skill tree. The sabot rifle is still way slower than a grenade launcher or TOW rocket. As a sharpshooter in TDM I spend 50% of my time running behind corners, lurking there while my sabot recharges, and punishing people who chase me.

Here's my sharpshooter skill tree:

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Also to those people saying they aren't seeing many sharpshooters in their matches, are we playing the same game_

nomcopter only sees people who manage to kill him :-/

There's tons of sharpshooters who just stand there trying to out-DPS assaults or brawlers, and it just doesn't work. They might get a lucky kill on a low-health enemy here or there, but they're pretty darn ineffective in general.

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

people are able to play sharpshooters as assault mechs, while still retaining the long range effectiveness inherent to the class.

And I can take out new-comers at long range with judicial use of my Assault Rifle with the Assault. Mechs don't need to by closely pigeon holed. It's really hard (and a real roll of the dice) to get those no-scope sabot rifle shots to hit. It's a last-ditch strategy, and if the sharpshooter misses with that close-range sabot shot, then its game over for them: if you're running a mech with an AR and you're touching a sharpshooter (so they have no where to hide while the sabot reloads) then you should be able to kill them before they can get a second shot off.

I don't think the sharpshooter is OP. I think it has some low-hanging kill fruit: burst damage from across the map makes it easy to get last-hit kills on weakened enemies. BUT HEY -- that's what a sharpshooter is supposed to do!

If you're frustrated that you get destroyed by a sharpshooter in close combat, maybe it's just because they're better than you instead of wielding some vast inherit class advantage.

Two things frighten me in one-on-ones as a sharpshooter:

• a class-C mech with a flak cannon
  
  
• an opponent who can play

I'll get my face melted by anyone who can effectively use dodge, cover, and their secondary weapon. Class A mechs generally do better against me (they've got a lot more dodge and run-away), but I'm absolutely terrified by a player like Saer in any mech class.

Well, somethings different between CBT1 and CBT2.  CBT1 I was terrible at Sharpshooter and even when I hit it didn't seem to faze people so much.  I'd go brawler and get 6-7 kill streaks and I'm not that good at brawler either, but I'd be able to close distance and shred sharpshooters and assault mechs with the flak cannon, the TOW missile was a lot of damage but not before I'd finish them off.

Now I try to close distance on a sharpshooter, even from behind, and hit them with a few flak shots, they turn around, slug rifle no scope point blank sabot, slug rifle, and I'm dead (their special ability is on I'm sure), but this is at close range, where a brawler's heavy armor and short range weaponry is supposed to be effective

Now I switch to Sharpshooter, and like i said, I wasn't that good at it at all in CBT1, I only played it a few times was still level 0.  In 4 games (where there was also a lot of other sharpshooters) I've managed to get 5-6 killstreaks and positive K/D/A's.

I really highly doubt that I suddenly suck at Brawler and got much better with Sharpshooter.

[wikt]

JustJake, on November 10 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

The slug rifle has lower DPS than the assault rifle, or even the SMG. And the AR can hit at rather long ranges if you don't hold it down non-stop.

Can you back this up with actual statistics_ I find that very hard to believe..

JustJake, on November 10 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

There's tons of sharpshooters who just stand there trying to out-DPS assaults or brawlers, and it just doesn't work. They might get a lucky kill on a low-health enemy here or there, but they're pretty darn ineffective in general.

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

people are able to play sharpshooters as assault mechs, while still retaining the long range effectiveness inherent to the class.

And I can take out new-comers at long range with judicial use of my Assault Rifle with the Assault.

So in your first point you're saying that because there are some sharpshooters who are noobs, and don't dodge that makes the class less OP_ And in your second point, you're saying you can take out noobs at long range with assault_ I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Amongst relatively evenly skilled players, I think the sharpshooter is unbalanced in CQB.

I've been playing since Alpha2 aswell, in which I played sharpshooter almost exlusively. Only since halfway though CBE1 did I try the assault. I'm only noticing a problem now at CBE2 and I'm not sure why, but what I do know is whenever I'm going bad in a game I can switch to SS and immediately start coming back.

[D20Face]

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

JustJake, on November 10 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

The slug rifle has lower DPS than the assault rifle, or even the SMG. And the AR can hit at rather long ranges if you don't hold it down non-stop.

Can you back this up with actual statistics_ I find that very hard to believe.

Lowest DPS in the game actually. Right above the unadded repair torch.

I accidentally deleted my old .inis and they didn't come back when I reinstalled, so I no longer have exact numbers, but I remember the key points.

Point D Vulcan Highest DPS
Flak Second highest DPS both of these are way above normal weapons.

Repeater Highest front end burst. Above average DPS.

Assault rifle med heat
SMG high heat
Heat Cannon low heat
Approx same average DPS with varying ranges and heat generation

Slug Rifle Lowest DPS

For secondaries Hellfire is the highest assuming they all hit, then GL and TOW(approximately the same) then the rifle for lowest DPS.

[pr0faker]

I 100% disagree with sharpshooters being op. Hitreg for the sabot is ridiculously retarded. 5m from stationary mech, I shoot unzoomed the freaking shot missed... WHAT_ how the hell can ppl get good k/d with a secondary that is so inconsistent and guns that overheat before you can even kill a  mech. Assault and bezerker are the ones that are waay more overpowered.