47 replies to this topic

[wikt]

pr0faker, on November 10 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

I 100% disagree with sharpshooters being op. Hitreg for the sabot is ridiculously retarded. 5m from stationary mech, I shoot unzoomed the freaking shot missed... WHAT_ how the hell can ppl get good k/d with a secondary that is so inconsistent and guns that overheat before you can even kill a  mech. Assault and bezerker are the ones that are waay more overpowered.

Because sharpshooters are now boosting up to almost point blank range and unloading 1 x Sabots then about 2 or 3 x Slugs Rifle shots with their increased damage ability on. You won't overheat as long as you can actually wait for their dodges, aim then fire.

[Zeshi]

JustJake, on November 10 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

giving players with good ping any semblance of skill a massive advantage (particularly with the slug rifle).

The slug rifle has lower DPS than the assault rifle, or even the SMG. And the AR can hit at rather long ranges if you don't hold it down non-stop.

It only has lower Dps if u don't take AR spread into account. If an enemy is significantly far away, you can only fire it for about a second before it gets too inaccurate.  Since u can't just keep firing an AR, the slug Dps is higher at long range (but AR should win at close-mid range)

[NIGHTRAV3N]

Sharpshooters are FAR from OP. I remember a few here in this thread that were eating free lead all night from either A) Standing still or not utilizing the environment to deter my LOS.

An effective pilot in the SS mech can dominate to some extent if the opposing team gets caught out in the open or doesn't roll in a pack/team shooting.

And as far as close quarter mech fights with the SS; We definitely have to be on every shot just to make it out alive even with the use of H.E. charges at times.

If you keep getting beat by a SS on a consistent basis then you are doing something wrong pilot.

[NUCLEARSHARKHEAD]

Devildoc, on November 10 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

In most the games I join, 80% of the people playing are in sharpshooter mechs, the people with the best K/D/A ratios, sharpshooter mechs, and I feel they are more powerful than they were CBT1 where they were already quite strong.

I liked the brawler CBT1, but CBT2_  Pointless to try playing one.  3 shot by sharpshooters even speccing into defense.

I hope this trend is being noticed.

People say "oh the class isn't OP, we're just good" or "more people play them because they're the most fun" ... yeah, because they're hands down the most effective mechs in the game.

I honestly don't enjoy testing when this is such a glaring issue.

I'm playing a brawler in CB2. I think I would definitely do better as a sharpshooter since I'm naturally more sniper-oriented when it comes to shooters. I'm deliberately playing outside my comfort zone for the sake of beta testing : )

If sharpshooters are going to heavily populate and rule the battlefield of Hawken, then until the devs decide to change it, it will be so. Your strategy with any mech class will depend on your ability to defend yourself against multiple sharpshooters, let alone one. The game's depth will center entirely around countering sharpshooters.

This should not be surprising - every game has its most powerful loadouts/classes that people try to bring down. If the sharpshooter class is nerfed, the outcome will be that everyone will find a way to compensate for the reduction, or move onto next best class loadout, which will then ALSO be considered overpowered, etc etc.

Are they overpowered_ I don't know. I haven't run into enough of them or been one myself, so I haven't decided.

Edited by NUCLEARSHARKHEAD, November 10 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Juodvarnis]

I'm actually a light sniper player most of the time, but in this game i simply cannot resist the sexiness that is the Brawler.

[Binary_Agenda]

Depending on what map you are playing sharpshooter is OP.  On the wide open maps where they can just jet up to a high point a camp they fuzzy bunny everyone.  On the tight maps that don't have much high terrain to leverage they get stomped on.  

Flak Monkey for life!

[NIGHTRAV3N]

The only open map is Sahara atm, and even the there still is enough environmental cover of the buildings and curvature of the hills to use.

People just need to put in more game time to learn how to counter and effective sharpshooter pilot. All this crying about sharpshooters being "OP" is getting ridiculously annoying.

They need to LOS to even get a hit. So don't stand still and use the environment to throw off a sharpshooter. Effective boosting and equipment use is also something else to be proficient at.

[Crimson_Corsair]

Can't really say anything one way or another as I play Class A, so I'm inherently biased. Having half to 2/3 of your health blown away in one salvo does that to you. I am glad to have one or two SS on my team though.
A good or even decent SS has only one weakness, Someone getting up close and getting the jump on them, or better player in another SS.

It can be very hard to sneak up on a good player who knows his one weakness. It's not so easy as "Sneak up on them or use cover" when they stay in the middle of their team, and make sure that any approach to get close to them requires going through open space, ensuring that by the time they reach CQC their enemy has half their fuel and health missing. Then they only have to dodge till the sabot recharges or a teammate comes to the rescue. Neither one takes very long. Meanwhile I have to land 2 or 3 Tows on a full health target doing everything it can to not get hit.
That being said it makes blasting away the mediocre sharpshooters more satisfying.
Just a point of view from one of the guys you happily blast away.

Keep in mind I'm not saying its OP, I'm just explaining why we hate you

[Dackstrus]

Real men go Rocketeer and out snipe snipers with the Heat cannon.

Or Zerker and jump on them.


On topic: As of the last patch, Sharpshooters no longer seem to really bug me, Either i've just figure out that i typicly counter them or something.

Edited by Dackstrus, November 10 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Conquistador]

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

IMO the problem isn't the amount of damage they can do, it's the amount of damage they can take RELATIVE to the damage they can do. This leads me to think they should really be a Class A mech. Almost every sharpshooter I see isn't 'sharpshooting' at all. they're running-and-gunning around like assault mechs which seems kind of retarded. Any half decent sharpshooter can hold up to an assault mech in CQB which I think is where the problem lies.

Making them a Class-A mech would make them REALLY fast. I would highly recommend against this. A better solution would be a B-Class chassis with lower HP. Snipers should be able to one-shot other snipers at the same level.

Silk_Sk, on November 10 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Ah, a sharpshooter is OP complaint. How nostalgic. Sorry, this isn't Alpha 2 anymore, and even then it was mostly all about the Assault mech. Infiltrator is the hot topic now.

Infiltrator hasn't been OP since they went ahead and gave the FLAK cannon to Brawler. Keep your distance, mind your surroundings, and dodge those grenades. If you let an Infiltrator mech ambush you with the first shot, I think you pretty much deserve to die.

Devildoc, on November 10 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Maybe Infiltrator's stronger (but probably has a higher learning curve and is weaker to taking damage, I was killing infiltrator's in just a couple of shots as a sharpshooter), but sharpshooter is stronger relative to the amount of effort put in.

Having played Infiltrator throughout all of CB1, I agree with this statement. Sharpshooter damage curves scale much more dramatically than Infiltrator damage curves. Add to this the fact the sabot is a hitscan weapon with nigh-perfect accuracy at any range and no self-damage risk. Infiltrators need to get up close and personal to the point where their explosives become useful but not TOO close that they blow themselves up or suicide. Playing Infiltrator is all about finding the perfect "goldilocks zone", neither too hot nor cold, at which point your weapons are dealing maximum damage but aren't killing you in the process. In contrast, a sharpshooter (maxed at lvl 20) can pretty much three-shot an infiltrator (adding internals, skill tree effects, and special ability) at ANY range.

In short, the main problem is that Infiltrator damage scales only within the effective range of the weapon, which is close to medium range. Sharpshooter damage scales at any range, which is part of the problem. Implementing a damage falloff mechanic would resolve this issue.

Devildoc, on November 10 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Sharpshooters need looked at for being a bit too strong,
and Class C mechs need a lot of love.

Class C mechs are fine, save for their rubbish special ability. All the devs need to do is fix the "turret mode" special ability to actually be useful.
.

defekt, on November 10 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

¹ The Infiltrator is strong at the moment for similar reasons that the Sharpshooter is: its weapons (HEAT + GL) all lash out maximum front-loaded pain.  However, the Infiltrator trades the Sharpshooter's 'no risk' hitscan damage and full DPS at all ranges for mobility.  None of the other classes seem to make even trades in this regard, i.e., they often end up somewhat deficient on one aspect, which is one reason why these other classes are scarce at present.  

Wait, so you're saying the problem isn't that Sharpshooter or Infiltrator are overpowered, it's just all the other mechs that are underpowered_

Dackstrus, on November 10 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

On topic: As of the last patch, Sharpshooters no longer seem to really bug me, Either i've just figure out that i typicly counter them or something.

Can you confirm that they did a stealth nerf_ Or is this just conjecture_

Edited by Conquistador, November 10 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Devildoc]

I think that their popularity has to be looked at as an alarm sign just of by itself.  With the exception of assaults because that's everyone's first mech so you anticipate a lot of those.. if any 1 mech class is just overwhelmingly popular, you have to look at WHY they're popular and other mechs are not.

CBT 1, there were quite a few assaults, usually 1-2 sharpshooters, and class C mechs here and there, but still not many.

CBT2.. I almost never see less than 4 SS.

Sabot cannon is very reliable and with their special ability damage boost is incredible damage, and slug rifle may be least DPS, but we're not doing sustained dps until you're overheated, you're doing precise shots for high damage.

One thing that comes to mind is noscope sabot rifle shots should ALWAYS miss, even point blank.  That'd create a necessary weakness for them to close and personal mechs like infiltrator and brawler.

[Turic]

most of players now know the maps and try to play ss. anyway, all hate shipers.

[Trakel]

Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge. If you can dodge a rocket, you can dodge a sniper.

[IceTonic]

I'm actually surprised there aren't more Berserkers, considering its basically a lighter Assault mech with weapon damage instead of coolant. You'd think it would be more popular because of the DPS it can dish out. I still don't see many Sharpshooters, mostly in Sahara but that's a given. They don't do very well close-up unless they're very experienced and have SA Hawkins as a primary.

Devildoc, on November 10 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

One thing that comes to mind is noscope sabot rifle shots should ALWAYS miss, even point blank.  That'd create a necessary weakness for them to close and personal mechs like infiltrator and brawler.

I don't think this is necessary. It should not always miss, but it should still be very inaccurate when you don't use the weapon utility for it. You should never get up into a mech's face, at least then it would still be difficult for a Sharpshooter to land a hit. Could it be less accurate_ Maybe, if you were lets say 1-2 mechs away you deserve to be hit by the Sabot.

Kinda like how one would deserve suicides if they fire Grenade/TOW/Hellfire at point-blank on low Armor. Its a terrible idea, unless you know what you're doing, in which you'd probably avoid that situation if you did.

[wikt]

Devildoc, on November 10 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

One thing that comes to mind is noscope sabot rifle shots should ALWAYS miss, even point blank.  That'd create a necessary weakness for them to close and personal mechs like infiltrator and brawler.

Or even better only allow the Sabot Rifle to fire when scoped.

[wikt]

IceTonic, on November 10 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I'm actually surprised there aren't more Berserkers, considering its basically a lighter Assault mech with weapon damage instead of coolant. You'd think it would be more popular because of the DPS it can dish out.

I stopped playing Berserker and switched to Assault once I realised that as Berserker, most of your fights will be in CQB with assaults which will wipe the floor with you. Yes you have an extra damage ability but this barely compensates for the extra armor an Assault has. Not only that but if it's a prolonged fight the Assault can and will outlast you with coolant.

[IceTonic]

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

IceTonic, on November 10 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I'm actually surprised there aren't more Berserkers, considering its basically a lighter Assault mech with weapon damage instead of coolant. You'd think it would be more popular because of the DPS it can dish out.

I stopped playing Berserker and switched to Assault once I realised that as Berserker, most of your fights will be in CQB with assaults which will wipe the floor with you. Yes you have an extra damage ability but this barely compensates for the extra armor an Assault has. Not only that but if it's a prolonged fight the Assault can and will outlast you with coolant.

It would be an issue, with the lack of Armor. I don't really play Berserker, since I'm busy leveling my Infiltrator and I've had no issue dealing with mechs of higher Armor attribute. Maybe if it were two players of the same skill level, I can see the problem there, since Assault would outlast in an equal exchange of damage.

To me, Berserkers are kinda like Sharpshooters, they have potential and their downsides but can really excel with the right pilot using them. There aren't many cons to using either of them anyway, but I wonder where this will go. If the popularity increases, and more of them start trying to camp, Rocketeers might find some nice targets for their Hellfires.

[Lev_Astov]

In alpha, people complained incessantly about the assault mechs being "op."  I had no trouble dispatching them with my sniper build.  If you don't like how someone is playing, adapt and beat them.  Don't take the the forums immediately to complain about it.  That's not constructive in a beta.  

Now, if you are competent at other games and can't seem to find a way to deal with sharpshooters after a few days of trying, then you should bring up the point and discuss the methods you tried in dealing with them.

[marshalade]

Lev_Astov, on November 10 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

if you are competent

The real issue.

Edited by marshalade, November 10 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[RedVan]

wikt, on November 10 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 10 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Sharpshooter has a much higher penalty for missing.

And a much higher reward for hitting, giving players with good ping and any semblance of skill a massive advantage (particularly with the slug rifle).

Good, players that have skill should be rewarded for it.  As for ping, you need to balance a game based on similar pings, so if someone has say, 115 ping, and complains about how good someone with a 30 ping is doing, well, thats the way video games work.  Get new internet, or join a different server.

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RedVan, on November 10 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

  Long reload times.
  

I've seen people mitigating this with the tech tree lately, to great effect.

That's ok, if people want to chose to spec like that.  Myself, I spec for maneuverability.

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RedVan, on November 10 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Also, the sabat needs to be zoomed to be used effectively.
  

No, it doesn't. I've had many sharpshooters simply run up to me point blank and blast away unzoomed.

why are you letting sharpshooters get right next to you_  As they approach you, you should have them pretty low on armor before they can get that close.

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RedVan, on November 10 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Try playing that close range against a good player.  They'll dodge out of view in no time.

  

A sharpshooter can dodge just as well as any other type B mech.

Your point_  Of course they can...
The point is that while zoomed, it's harder for a sharpshooter to acquire a target that dodges out of the way.  The ability of a sharpshooter to dodge is irrelevant.  You should be able to lose a zoomed sharpshooter, especially at close range.  Since other classes dont need to zoom to fire accurately, they don't have the risk of losing their target due to literal "tunnel vision".

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The point I'm trying to make is that people are able to play sharpshooters as assault mechs, while still retaining the long range effectiveness inherent to the class. Also to those people saying they aren't seeing many sharpshooters in their matches, are we playing the same game_

Long range:  Use cover as you approach, and/or go around them.
Close range:  You have the huge advantage of not needing to zoom.  All you need to do is use cover properly to get them to miss even just once, and you'll have them down.

EDIT:  You SHOULD be able to have them down.  Obviously, not everyone is good at video games...

Edited by RedVan, November 10 2012 - 02:44 PM.