19 replies to this topic

[Culex]

Continued from http://community.pla...e-mode-exploit/ ; felt this deserved its own thread.

c0mad0r, on November 14 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 14 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Here's the thing though: A smart player will never directly vie in AA if they have a pretty good tank. Why_ If they die, [their EU] gets dropped, and you have no guarantee your team will be the one picking it up. This then allows the enemy to press harder.

Therefore, players who are more full will usually go back towards base to dump it off. I know I hang back once I got a pretty full tank.

The easy solutions to this problem that I can think of off the top of my head would probably either be some kind of overflow storage (which brings issues of its own... though maybe it could be used to heal the battleship_) or if everyone's EU goes immediately zero on their tanks when their battleships launch.

IMO, the "easy" solution is to make all EU nulled out, lost, when a Battleship is launched. This forces everyone to start the foraging process over again and in a sense, balances everything again.

All that EU you worked to gather should not be lost, imo. People will get paranoid about whether they are going to get struck by zeus in the form of a 'battleship launch instant deplete'. This doesn't feel right. Also if it's an enemy ship launched you would have no control of when this happens (even your teammates launching your ship, fuzzy bunny you over in the process LOL).

I may be opening Pandora's box with this suggestion, but what about having a keybind to drop EU wherever you're currently standing_

Let's think about this one. If you've just finished collecting at a node, or let's say you've been merking people left and right and have over half-a-tank, your EU collection should be recognized and you should be able to help your team with a potential turn-in. But here is dilemma-if the enemy ship is launched, do you run half a map's length to your base to drop off, then waste time precious time depositing it so you don't lose it_ Or do you go directly on the AA anyway, and possibly die with it on you and risk handing it over to the enemy, thus hurting your team even more_ Or do you just shoot from a distance, be less effective to help your team, and not stand in the AA control when bodies are needed there to overturn control_

With the current system, the answer isn't simple. With a keybind for dropping EU, you can compromise. If you're already close to your base when the ship launches, just drop it directly in your base and proceed to AA. If you're already by the AA and help is needed right away, take a slightly less risky approach with the EU you own and drop it out of LoS behind one of the buildings (less chance that the enemy will take it-and you can communicate to your ally where it is or come back for it if it doesn't despawn when you revive).

I guarantee you, more teammates will come into the AA circle and be there when you need them with this system. It promotes actual team battles instead of "Oh half of our team only showed up so nothing we can do."

"But Culex, what else does this entail_ What about abuse_"

The dropping off of EU should not be an instantaneous drop. It should pour out close to a rate at which you deposit it at the airlift or gain it at fully charged E node. Otherwise in a very close quarters battle, players would fuzzy bunny it out instantly before rushing kamikaze-style into the enemy. If they had to wait for it to be 'poured' out, they are spending precious seconds where 1) They become vulnerable and can't move and 2) they are not fighting the enemy with their team.

"What other aspects of gameplay will this affect_"

Well for one, you may see new strategies arrive, such as passing energy off to teammates (again remember the EU drop is not instant, and also that each mech has their own capacity limits). If a heavy C-mech isn't feeling selfish, he may drop (and pass) his 150 EU to his fast A-mech teammate, so that he can continue to support his team at the control/choke point while his A-mech buddy delivers it.

If for example you only needed 75 EU to launch the ship, you have 20 EU and the ally mech close to you has 60 EU, well guess what_ you can give him your 20 and now only one person has to go and deposit to launch the ship! You can now proceed to the AA to get a headstart on defending it.

Also, you may also start to see more mechs (particularly A-mechs) behind enemy lines scouting for intentionally-dropped EU piles, going to claim their jackpots. If AA is already under strong control, a good easter egg hunt never hurt anyone, right_

Edit(s): Few things I want to add from the feedback/also summarize so far.

• Intentionally dropped EU piles may have to have a longer life sitting on the ground before they dissipate to accommodate the length of a complete ship travel and then some so this would work. Increase the lifetime length of all piles or just ones dropped intentionally.
  
• There needs to be a minimum amount of EU (such as 20 EU) necessary before you can drop it. This is to prevent people from trolling and littering the ground too much with green piles (as suggested by c0mad0r).
  
• Perhaps tie in an XP bonus to someone's dropped EU being turned in by a teammate (if the game can detect EU ownership in the first place and give credit appropriately). This bonus would be given to the player that 'passed the EU' or for their effort in getting it in the first place. OR Rework how XP is calculated for EU so that it is: lessened slightly for depositing, given for picking up EU (maybe 1/2 to 1/3 the deposit value), and provide more of an XP bonus for winning a siege match. This bullet point isn't completely necessary but may encourage more teamplay and less worry about stealing between each other.
  
• Implement a map signal (kind of like how focus point works, but smaller and depicted by a green marker) that you can use to flag down where you dropped EU piles. This way if you die, it'll be easier for your team to find your pile and turn it in for you, or just for you to remember where you put it.
  
• Dropping EU could require a held-in key push, the same way that the C bind for repair works. This way it places commitment on your part and you can't move/fight back while dropping.
  
• Dropping EU would 'pour out' at a rate similar to getting EU from a fully charge node or depositing in the airlift.

Edited by Culex, November 18 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Zeshi]

Seems like a good idea to me. I do worry about making an already complex mode (to some people at least) even more complex. Even at the end of CB2 their were still people who just didn't get what they were supposed to do. Still, count me in favor of this change.

[Culex]

As far as the complexity goes, I think just the words "Drop EU" in the keybind menu are self-explanatory. But of course, when tutorials come along, this should be mentioned. Siege mode in particular takes a few playthroughs on a newb level with people explaining to fully comprehend. That is just the nature of the mode. This is only a small, but not essential (to play out the mode) feature.

Even players that don't particularly know to use this will not be at any huge disadvantage if they don't-but it will provide more depth to experienced players.

[Zeshi]

Culex, on November 14 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

As far as the complexity goes, I think just the words "Drop EU" in the keybind menu are self-explanatory. But of course, when tutorials come along, this should be mentioned. Siege mode in particular takes a few playthroughs on a newb level with people explaining to fully comprehend. That is just the nature of the mode. This is only a small, but not essential (to play out the mode) feature.

Even players that don't particularly know to use this will not be at any huge disadvantage if they don't-but it will provide more depth to experienced players.

Exactly, thats pretty much why i said i'm still in favor

[DER3Z]

I deff agree with this 100% love the idea and i hope the devs take a look at this.

[BeefC4ke]

Seems like a good idea I guess. I don't see any real ways for this to be abused, only positives.

EU does dissipate though after a while if it is left unattended so if you dump and no one comes along to pick it up then it's lost.

Like the OP said though, if a heavy mech runs around and kills some people and gets 150 EU he can run over to a teammate and hand off the EU for quicker return. Then the heavy can continue to stomp around defending other who are collecting.

[OverWolf]

It would certainly add more of a strategic element in the game without disrupting its fast-paced flow.  I say I hope the idea gets some consideration.

[DarkPulse]

It's a pretty good idea, although I'll note my comment (since you quoted it) was more meant that if your team launched a battleship, your team's EU was zeroed, so as to encourage maximum bodies towards the AA. I did not intend to mean that if EITHER battleship launches, any/all EU is zeroed for both sides.

This way, the team which hasn't launched can still transfer EU and (if any is left in the EU points) collect EU from the orbs, as well as (obviously) their enemies, though if the enemy has all EU zeroed, EU gained from enemies is also minimal - thus encouraging them to head to the AA to try to take it as well.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 14 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[c0mad0r]

Culex, on November 14 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

All that EU you worked to gather should not be lost, imo. People will get paranoid about whether they are going to get struck by zeus in the form of a 'battleship launch instant deplete'. This doesn't feel right.

While I agree that it doesn't "feel right" I also must contest that the current level of paranoia is still rather high.

During CBT2 I often saw people run and hide when a Battleship was launched, fearful of joining the AA due to the quantity of EU they possess. This results in more people being less useful by firing off shots from a distance and/or RUNNING away the moment they are hit... afraid of losing their EU pileup.

Culex, on November 14 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

I may be opening Pandora's box with this suggestion, but what about having a keybind to drop EU wherever you're currently standing_

"What other aspects of gameplay will this affect_"

Well for one, you may see new strategies arrive, such as passing energy off to teammates (again remember the EU drop is not instant, and also that each mech has their own capacity limits). If a heavy C-mech isn't feeling selfish, he may drop (and pass) his 150 EU to his fast A-mech teammate, so that he can continue to support his team at the control/choke point while his A-mech buddy delivers it.

While it is a good idea, I think that the idea of ushering in a Hawken version of "Western Union Pony Express" strategy during comp and coordinated TS/Vent/Mumble/Skype play needs a little more work due to pubs. B & C-Classes would take a dump on the spot and let faster courier scouts run their loads to the DE, which is great to some degree, but needs a minor adjustment:

People like playing in teams, but they want credit for their work. In pubs, this isn't going to work unless the quantity returned is rewarded to everyone who contributed it. Why_

Unless people get credit for their contributions, during pub events you would be more likely to see people (me included) running off to hide "my precious" so they could join the AA... It's the only way to guarantee credit for ones work, thus resulting in a similar problem to what we have now.

I also think there should be a minimum amount of EU collected, say 20EU before one could drop it. Otherwise people will be lighting up the ground everywhere with deer pellets.

Culex, on November 14 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Also, you may also start to see more mechs (particularly A-mechs) behind enemy lines scouting for intentionally-dropped EU piles, going to claim their jackpots. If AA is already under strong control, a good easter egg hunt never hurt anyone, right_

That happens even now... I for one do this a lot during AA's as an Infiltrator or Assault: Pick off the unsuspecting, take their goody bag and run.


I've got a WAY different idea too though:

The victory conditions of Seige require the successful deployment of 3 battleships whereby control of the AA is necessary to Defend or Assault the battleship.

Let's assume that each "battleship" has its own fuel type:

Battleship 1: Red
Battleship 2: Green
Battleship 3: Blue

If TeamA launches Battleship1, the acquired red fuel is still useful to either team... unless TeamA wins the AA, in which case that Fuel is now automatically dropped by all members of TeamA since it is now useless to them, but not to TeamB. At the same time, TeamA is rewarded a "team bonus" to compensate for the lost fuel. Now, this gives TeamB a chance to catch up by collecting Reds dropped while TeamA rushes off to collect Green fuel. Visiting a Energy Station still gives fuel for the appropriate Battleship. Game continues in this fashion until all 3 AA's are won.

What do you think of that_

Edited by c0mad0r, November 14 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[Culex]

c0mad0r, on November 14 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Culex, on November 14 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

I may be opening Pandora's box with this suggestion, but what about having a keybind to drop EU wherever you're currently standing_

"What other aspects of gameplay will this affect_"

Well for one, you may see new strategies arrive, such as passing energy off to teammates (again remember the EU drop is not instant, and also that each mech has their own capacity limits). If a heavy C-mech isn't feeling selfish, he may drop (and pass) his 150 EU to his fast A-mech teammate, so that he can continue to support his team at the control/choke point while his A-mech buddy delivers it.

While it is a good idea, I think that the idea of ushering in a Hawken version of "Western Union Pony Express" strategy during comp and coordinated TS/Vent/Mumble/Skype play needs a little more work due to pubs. B & C-Classes would take a dump on the spot and let faster courier scouts run their loads to the DE, which is great to some degree, but needs a minor adjustment:

People like playing in teams, but they want credit for their work. In pubs, this isn't going to work unless the quantity returned is rewarded to everyone who contributed it. Why_

Unless people get credit for their contributions, during pub events you would be more likely to see people (me included) running off to hide "my precious" so they could join the AA... It's the only way to guarantee credit for ones work, thus resulting in a similar problem to what we have now.

I had a feeling someone would say something about credit for letting someone else take your EU pile to base. It is a valid point. Maybe some XP-sharing credit can be worked into this.  Maybe keep the EU+ and EU- in the score table the same, but work in a bonus (kind of the way you get for AA control kills, killstreaks, etc.) if your dropped EU gets turned in by a friendly mech.

Otherwise though, I don't expect pub games to make much use out of it. If the devs gave higher exp bonuses for winning siege matches, or some XP bonus categories that I mentioned above, it would provide more incentive. Scrims with pre-made teams shouldn't have to worry too much because the win is more important.

c0mad0r, on November 14 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

I also think there should be a minimum amount of EU collected, say 20EU before one could drop it. Otherwise people will be lighting up the ground everywhere with deer pellets.

Agreed.

c0mad0r, on November 14 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Culex, on November 14 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Also, you may also start to see more mechs (particularly A-mechs) behind enemy lines scouting for intentionally-dropped EU piles, going to claim their jackpots. If AA is already under strong control, a good easter egg hunt never hurt anyone, right_

That happens even now... I for one do this a lot during AA's as an Infiltrator or Assault: Pick off the unsuspecting, take their goody bag and run.

Yeah, same. This just provides more opportunities!

c0mad0r, on November 14 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

I've got a WAY different idea too though:

The victory conditions of Seige require the successful deployment of 3 battleships whereby control of the AA is necessary to Defend or Assault the battleship.

Let's assume that each "battleship" has its own fuel type:

Battleship 1: Red
Battleship 2: Green
Battleship 3: Blue

If TeamA launches Battleship1, the acquired red fuel is still useful to either team... unless TeamA wins the AA, in which case that Fuel is now automatically dropped by all members of TeamA since it is now useless to them, but not to TeamB. At the same time, TeamA is rewarded a "team bonus" to compensate for the lost fuel. Now, this gives TeamB a chance to catch up by collecting Reds dropped while TeamA rushes off to collect Green fuel. Visiting a Energy Station still gives fuel for the appropriate Battleship. Game continues in this fashion until all 3 AA's are won.

What do you think of that_

Seems overly complex. New players already have a hard time learning seige; I think even adept players would have a hard time reminding themselves what's what and about each different colored pile. Interesting in theory though. Not a big fan of having fuel become obsolete, automatic drop, and allowing enemies to just jump on it. I think it would however promote closer games because it gives the team behind more of a chance to catch up.

Edited by Culex, November 14 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Culex]

BeefC4ke, on November 14 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Seems like a good idea I guess. I don't see any real ways for this to be abused, only positives.

EU does dissipate though after a while if it is left unattended so if you dump and no one comes along to pick it up then it's lost.

Like the OP said though, if a heavy mech runs around and kills some people and gets 150 EU he can run over to a teammate and hand off the EU for quicker return. Then the heavy can continue to stomp around defending other who are collecting.

Regarding the dissipation, I don't recall the amount of time it takes for a pile to disappear, but if it seems too short, maybe an intentionally dropped pile could last longer than one dropped from dying. Otherwise the devs can just keep the time the same for both but just adjust it as needed.

The heavy, in your example, if already at max capacity before dropping it for the A mech, can now also not only continue to wreak havoc, but also pick up more along the way, thus securing more energy piles on the ground. So both ways it seems efficient.

As far as roles go, it can be interesting having one A-mech on your team play more like a transport mule while another play more like an undercover, behind enemy lines gatherer. Not exclusive roles, but they can be more emphasized.

DarkPulse, on November 14 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's a pretty good idea, although I'll note my comment (since you quoted it) was more meant that if your team launched a battleship, your team's EU was zeroed, so as to encourage maximum bodies towards the AA. I did not intend to mean that if EITHER battleship launches, any/all EU is zeroed for both sides.

This way, the team which hasn't launched can still transfer EU and (if any is left in the EU points) collect EU from the orbs, as well as (obviously) their enemies, though if the enemy has all EU zeroed, EU gained from enemies is also minimal - thus encouraging them to head to the AA to try to take it as well.

Yea I gotcha. Though I wouldn't want my full tank of EU to be erased from me for a teammate launching the ship. This would just be frustrating, because it penalizes. As for promoting more bodies at the AA, this would only be true for your team then. The team defending against the ship would still dilly-dally with EU and in most cases whoever got the launch would secure the AA because of this.

[DarkPulse]

Culex, on November 14 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Yea I gotcha. Though I wouldn't want my full tank of EU to be erased from me for a teammate launching the ship. This would just be frustrating, because it penalizes. As for promoting more bodies at the AA, this would only be true for your team then. The team defending against the ship would still dilly-dally with EU and in most cases whoever got the launch would secure the AA because of this.

People hanging back penalizes you even worse in terms of AA defense.

Perhaps giving some kind of bonus would alleviate that.

Also, eventually, neither CP has more EU in its orbs (once they deplete, they stay depleted until the ship attacks successfully or is destroyed); if they want more EU, they will HAVE to get it from the guys defending the AA.

[Culex]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Culex, on November 14 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Yea I gotcha. Though I wouldn't want my full tank of EU to be erased from me for a teammate launching the ship. This would just be frustrating, because it penalizes. As for promoting more bodies at the AA, this would only be true for your team then. The team defending against the ship would still dilly-dally with EU and in most cases whoever got the launch would secure the AA because of this.

People hanging back penalizes you even worse in terms of AA defense.

Perhaps giving some kind of bonus would alleviate that.

Also, eventually, neither CP has more EU in its orbs (once they deplete, they stay depleted until the ship attacks successfully or is destroyed); if they want more EU, they will HAVE to get it from the guys defending the AA.

Why should the time you spent gathering at the node/collecting EU piles before your team launched the ship be completely voided in the first place_ It IS a penalty. Your time would've been better spent fighting and killing mechs. You would have have little to no control when the final amount became turned in if you weren't the one returning it. The suggestion to zero your team's EU containers attempts to solve one problem but presents another. That is why the "drop EU" allows you to have a certain degree of control of retaining all of the work you put in gathering.

If zeroing the EU gave some kind of bonus, let's say for XP, most players wouldn't even bother shuttling it back if they know they just had to wait out until their ship launched, so they would try to get kills instead. The XP would have to be much smaller than the amount you get for depositing it. Even if this were the case, I believe it would be a detriment to siege mode in general because you would see sentium launch a ship, then prosk, then sentium, then prosk etc. for the most part. Resetting the launching team's EU would start them over to collect another 700 or so while the other team would just have a little bit left to go, having been able to retain their EU. Being able to hang onto your EU promotes being able to do a back-to-back ship launch, if your team has been playing all of their cards right. This means all of your efforts pay off more (preparing to deposit for the next ship launch) and lead to a shorter game than what you're suggesting. With two good teams, siege is already long enough as it is.

Yes, they can go on the AA to attempt to steal it from the other team, but this only goes so far (maybe most of the enemy mechs deposited before reaching the AA_). And if they fail to seize the AA and take piles, they will have nothing going into preparation for the next ship launch.

Part of what makes siege fun is that it can play like a rollercoaster ride; back-to-back launches included. Having EU for your next ship in advance is a reward of your skill and team effort. That's why I think so far the Drop EU is the best solution; it introduces new elements such as passing EU, hiding it, sending a scout to steal it. Also what about the situation where you have 25 EU on hand and your ally mech close to you has 50 EU. The ship only needs 75 EU to launch. Currently you both have to go back. With the drop EU function, now only one has to go back while the other can get a headstart on the AA. This is just great teamwork.

But the main thing is it's meant as a current fix to the problem of players not joining up on the AA and holding back, all while preserving the reward you get for having some EU on hand to deposit for the next ship. These new elements introduced to the meta are just an unintentional bonus.

Edited by Culex, November 15 2012 - 09:57 PM.

[DarkPulse]

Culex, on November 15 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Why should the time you spent gathering at the node/collecting EU piles before your team launched the ship be completely voided in the first place_ It IS a penalty. Your time would've been better spent fighting and killing mechs. You would have have little to no control when the final amount became turned in if you weren't the one returning it. The suggestion to zero your team's EU containers attempts to solve one problem but presents another. That is why the "drop EU" allows you to have a certain degree of control of retaining all of the work you put in gathering.

That doesn't solve the problem either; it just shuffles it around. Instead of one C-Class with 300, you might have three guys with 100 each. Still payday if the enemy kills them, and somebody has to hold onto the EU until the ship is destroyed (either through enemy action or base collision) or you risk the EU vanishing anyway.

So it will still lead to some people inevitably hanging back and not fighting for the AA, which puts us right back to square one.

Culex, on November 15 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

If zeroing the EU gave some kind of bonus, let's say for XP, most players wouldn't even bother shuttling it back if they know they just had to wait out until their ship launched, so they would try to get kills instead. The XP would have to be much smaller than the amount you get for depositing it. Even if this were the case, I believe it would be a detriment to siege mode in general because you would see sentium launch a ship, then prosk, then sentium, then prosk etc. for the most part. Resetting the launching team's EU would start them over to collect another 700 or so while the other team would just have a little bit left to go, having been able to retain their EU. Being able to hang onto your EU promotes being able to do a back-to-back ship launch, if your team has been playing all of their cards right. This means all of your efforts pay off more (preparing to deposit for the next ship launch) and lead to a shorter game than what you're suggesting. With two good teams, siege is already long enough as it is.

Yes, that is true, and oftentimes I'm dumping EU after a ship finishes, but the simple fact is that it's still very risky play and it definitely means that people with more EU will be playing off the AA. You don't want to be trapped inside when 3 enemies scream in and suddenly you see flashing red numbers just below the tank that reads "300."

Basically, it's a tradeoff of two evils: Either you can't support the AA due to your fuel, or else you support the AA but risk dropping your fuel. And obviously, dropping it inside the AA risks enemy payday. Therefore, most players will resort to playing off the AA, which weakens grip on the AA, which is part of what this thread is trying to solve.

Dropping EU is a start, but as I said, all it does is spread the EU around; it doesn't fundamentally change things, as people who still have more EU will still not play close to the AA. If you want more people involved in the AA, there needs to be some kind of "sink" that greatly reduces their EU, even if a ship is launched.

Culex, on November 15 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Yes, they can go on the AA to attempt to steal it from the other team, but this only goes so far (maybe most of the enemy mechs deposited before reaching the AA_). And if they fail to seize the AA and take piles, they will have nothing going into preparation for the next ship launch.

EU Collection points still work as normal. (They work for both teams, actually). They do not recharge energy during a ship launch, though.

Culex, on November 15 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Part of what makes siege fun is that it can play like a rollercoaster ride; back-to-back launches included. Having EU for your next ship in advance is a reward of your skill and team effort. That's why I think so far the Drop EU is the best solution; it introduces new elements such as passing EU, hiding it, sending a scout to steal it. Also what about the situation where you have 25 EU on hand and your ally mech close to you has 50 EU. The ship only needs 75 EU to launch. Currently you both have to go back. With the drop EU function, now only one has to go back while the other can get a headstart on the AA. This is just great teamwork.

That much is indeed better, but as I said, dropping EU is just spreading the buck around. I'm not totally against the idea of an EU drop, but I think there's probably some better system than that, that can be implemented that will neither waste "excess" EUs, nor force people to play off the AA due to full tanks, as that's the only way you're going to encourage people to stay in it.

Culex, on November 15 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

But the main thing is it's meant as a current fix to the problem of players not joining up on the AA and holding back, all while preserving the reward you get for having some EU on hand to deposit for the next ship. These new elements introduced to the meta are just an unintentional bonus.

They are, but it does complicate a somewhat complicated mode further. There's also the fact that due to the different carry capacities, eventually there is a limit. The C-Class can dump as much as two A-Classes, so for him to "risk-free" fight for the AA, two mechs with 100% empty tanks (unless it's another C-Class) has to take his EU.

It's not a bad idea, but it's only going to gain traction if people would actually make use of it, and keep in mind their mech chassis' limitations, etc.

[Nitris]

I can see it already:

"Enemy battleship launched!" Person A boosts away from the EU tree and AA point in order to hide his dropped EU pile, while person B (both on the same team) keeps an eye on where person A dropped his EU.
After person A leaves to go fight at the AA person B zips over, picks up the EU and drops it off at his base.
Person B racks up 150EXP or more (Depending on chassis, internals and optimizations) which is not only a guaranteed amount of EXP compared to attempting to get kills and assists while at the AA, it is totally risk free, because noone but the enemy team can force you to drop EU and they will be focused on stopping you from controlling the AA, not running off to your base.
Person A eventually returns to find his stash gone, or mostly gone. Person B could quite easily have just gone back and forth if it was more than his mech could carry in one go.
Not even going to mention that there could well be more than one hidden "EU pile" that person B could go and "steal" from his teammates.


Ok, I can see it working in competitive matches, where EXP is a non-issue (should all be running maxed mechs anyway really) and only victory matters, but doesn't this idea stem from getting pub games more focused and people actually fighting over the AA, rather than worrying about their precious EU_

While I like the idea of having a "dump EU" button, I don't see how this particular suggestion is going to fix the issue it was aimed at.

[Culex]

Nitris, on November 16 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I can see it already:

"Enemy battleship launched!" Person A boosts away from the EU tree and AA point in order to hide his dropped EU pile, while person B (both on the same team) keeps an eye on where person A dropped his EU.
After person A leaves to go fight at the AA person B zips over, picks up the EU and drops it off at his base.
Person B racks up 150EXP or more (Depending on chassis, internals and optimizations) which is not only a guaranteed amount of EXP compared to attempting to get kills and assists while at the AA, it is totally risk free, because noone but the enemy team can force you to drop EU and they will be focused on stopping you from controlling the AA, not running off to your base.
Person A eventually returns to find his stash gone, or mostly gone. Person B could quite easily have just gone back and forth if it was more than his mech could carry in one go.
Not even going to mention that there could well be more than one hidden "EU pile" that person B could go and "steal" from his teammates.


Ok, I can see it working in competitive matches, where EXP is a non-issue (should all be running maxed mechs anyway really) and only victory matters, but doesn't this idea stem from getting pub games more focused and people actually fighting over the AA, rather than worrying about their precious EU_

While I like the idea of having a "dump EU" button, I don't see how this particular suggestion is going to fix the issue it was aimed at.

Yes, I was thinking of that situation as well. That's why if they tied in an XP bonus somehow to someone's dropped EU being turned in by a teammate (if the game can detect EU ownership in the first place and give credit appropriately), it would lessen the frustration of this.

Otherwise if XP earned gets recalculated: XP earned can be lessened a bit for depositing, and XP can be given for picking up EU (nowhere near as much as you do for depositing, maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of the deposit value). Depositing EU is still a pretty much risk-free way of getting XP, so I don't think this will discourage to many people from depositing EU if it gets nerfed. And to compensate for this, more XP should be given for winning the game. Just some ideas. (*added to OP)

The drop EU is just one piece of improving the original issue of getting more people to the AA; it's not necessarily going to fix it completely but it may help. Just the idea of being able to give some to your ally so both of you don't have to make trips back to the airlift has me sold on it, not to mention the other strategies you can come up with (ex: just came up with another one right now-EU pile baiting, as a SS, drop a decent-sized chunk on the ground, watch and wait for them, mouse takes the cheese, SNAP!).

Edited by Culex, November 16 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Culex]

DarkPulse, on November 16 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

That doesn't solve the problem either; it just shuffles it around. Instead of one C-Class with 300, you might have three guys with 100 each. Still payday if the enemy kills them, and somebody has to hold onto the EU until the ship is destroyed (either through enemy action or base collision) or you risk the EU vanishing anyway.

So it will still lead to some people inevitably hanging back and not fighting for the AA, which puts us right back to square one.

Not necessarily. If your mech is close to the base when your ship launches, deposit it in the base in safety and go straight to AA. If your ship launches, and you're between the AA and your base, you can hide it behind a building or ridge on your side of the map (note: your ship is launched is the important factor because you will have to worry less about the enemy team coming in on your side of the map). The amount of risk is really up to you. It does give you options, however.

Now when an enemy ship launches, dropping a pile on your side of the map is a bigger risk, only because the enemy team will be more prevalent on your side, especially during the 2nd half of the ship's travel to your base when they will stop you from shooting it down. You're not required to drop EU in the open map. Choosing when and where is a good skill to have.

But what about those cases where you on your team, defending against a ship assault, has enough EU on-hand to deposit and send your ship at the same time_ Maybe you don't want to send your ship, because the other team has already dominated the AA and there's no chance of getting it back, and sending your ship would just be suicide for it. Then you can at at least drop the EU in the base but intentionally don't turn it in, instead waiting for the enemy ship to die/hit, and for the enemy team to clear off of the AA. Imagine you need about 500 EU to launch your ship. You successfully defend against theirs. After their ship dies, they clear off the AA and return to E1 and E2. But what's this_! You had two dropped piles of 300 EU in your base. Ah ha, now you can deposit them together and retain control of AA early, because they wouldn't suspect it. Team tactics.

The shuffling example doesn't have to apply, because you can also leave it on the ground or in the base.

DarkPulse, on November 16 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Basically, it's a tradeoff of two evils: Either you can't support the AA due to your [EU], or else you support the AA but risk dropping your [EU]. And obviously, dropping it inside the AA risks enemy payday. Therefore, most players will resort to playing off the AA, which weakens grip on the AA, which is part of what this thread is trying to solve.

Dropping EU is a start, but as I said, all it does is spread the EU around; it doesn't fundamentally change things, as people who still have more EU will still not play close to the AA. If you want more people involved in the AA, there needs to be some kind of "sink" that greatly reduces their EU, even if a ship is launched.

Who mentioned dropping it inside the AA_ Like I mentioned before, drop in your base, leave it on your side of the map, or coordinate with someone to pick it up so they can take it back to drop off in the base (better to lose one person taking it back instead of two).

It's not a perfect fix but it's certainly better than what we have now.

DarkPulse, on November 16 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Culex, on November 15 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Yes, they can go on the AA to attempt to steal it from the other team, but this only goes so far (maybe most of the enemy mechs deposited before reaching the AA_). And if they fail to seize the AA and take piles, they will have nothing going into preparation for the next ship launch.

EU Collection points still work as normal. (They work for both teams, actually). They do not recharge energy during a ship launch, though.

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. I wasn't referring to collection points or the E nodes.

The suggestion you mentioned about only zeroing your team's EU means they would have no reserves to go in with. They can try to get some at the AA from killing mechs, but the mechs there may not have any large EU on them if they've already deposited. What I'm trying to say is why should one team retain their EU while the other team doesn't_ That doesn't solve it either. That just makes it very strange. Zeroing both however, is not realistic either.

DarkPulse, on November 16 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

They are, but it does complicate a somewhat complicated mode further. There's also the fact that due to the different carry capacities, eventually there is a limit. The C-Class can dump as much as two A-Classes, so for him to "risk-free" fight for the AA, two mechs with 100% empty tanks (unless it's another C-Class) has to take his EU.

It's not a bad idea, but it's only going to gain traction if people would actually make use of it, and keep in mind their mech chassis' limitations, etc.

The C-mech dropping EU in your example isn't forced to have two A-mechs pick it up. He can just put it in a safer spot for the time being. And if he drops his full carrying capacity load in a safe location, this also allows him to pick more up that could've otherwise gone to the enemy.

I don't feel it complicates the gamemode. In fact I think us dicussing it makes it seem complicated, when it really isn't. It just offers more depth and strategy, IF you choose to use it. For everyone else, it's not required.

As another idea, the dev team could implement a map signal (kind of like how set focus point works, but smaller and depicted by a green marker) to flag down where you dropped EU piles. This way if you go down, it'll be easier for your team to get it back for you, or just for you to remember where you put it (*added to OP).

Edited by Culex, November 16 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[Necro]

As far as i can tell this is a pretty simple solution to the original exploit i found and it does indeed help out, a player with 100 life could pass the energy to a fully healed player and get it there quicker while they repair and it just seems good.

I just don't want it to turn into a c class mech sitting in the energy pick up zone defending while an a class takes it back and forth.

[Culex]

Necro, on November 16 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

As far as i can tell this is a pretty simple solution to the original exploit i found and it does indeed help out, a player with 100 life could pass the energy to a fully healed player and get it there quicker while they repair and it just seems good.

I just don't want it to turn into a c class mech sitting in the energy pick up zone defending while an a class takes it back and forth.

Remember though that dropping EU isn't instant, it has to pour out. Picking up a stack of EU isn't instant either. While you can fight and do things while you pick up EU, as long as you're standing in range, I think that choosing to drop EU should be more of a commitment, and you can't fire/move/repair while doing it. I envision this kind of the way the repair bind C works, where you have to hold the key in to continuously to drop. This way, you're sacrificing other actions to do so (*added to OP). Until we test it and gather more feedback, this is what I would start with.

In your example about what worries you, I don't see how that is any different from the current siege format. Dropping it to A-mechs to pick can still be a valid strategy, if that's what you meant however. But given the fact that the C-mech has to expend time doing this, he can get caught with his 'pants down' and get blasted by a secondary. It is useful in certain situations.

Edited by Culex, November 18 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[BeefC4ke]

Necro, on November 16 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

As far as i can tell this is a pretty simple solution to the original exploit i found and it does indeed help out, a player with 100 life could pass the energy to a fully healed player and get it there quicker while they repair and it just seems good.

I just don't want it to turn into a c class mech sitting in the energy pick up zone defending while an a class takes it back and forth.

I would think the person that needs repairs would want to run back since the EU transfer apparatus at the base repairs your mech while you transfer EU into the base. I never waste time repairing when I'm full unless I don't think I can make it back to base with the health I have left. Even then I only repair up to a few hundred to save time.