58 replies to this topic

[SixSeconds]

innociv said:

The problem with melee weapons is the lack of weapon switching.

You're stuck with that weapon on one arm, which leaves you only 50% effective at range.

I think it's a bad idea.
I love melee mechs when it's appropriate, but Hawken has a different style and controls.
I think of a style like this as being more like a tank, a vertical tank.  You're engaging at range, or around buildings, you're not driving right up to the enemy.  It's not an exosuit, it' a vehicle.

If there IS melee, it'd have to be on a separate button that you use in backstabbing type situations.
But these are really unfun for the receiver, no matter how cool they might look.
It doesn't feel fun that someone beat you just because they got close and pressed a button.  It takes out all the aim and dodging.  It just feels like they got the drop on you and there was no chance.

You aren't stuck with that weapon on one arm; you've chosen that weapon on one arm. There's a difference. Some people have confidence in their jinking. And Hawken, from what I've seen, is definitely fast enough to have people close the distance with clever maneuvers, which seems to be the point.

Personally, I like melee as a massive risk/reward mechanic; which works out for the types of people who are likely to enjoy melee combat. And if someone gets the drop on you, then they should be rewarded; improve yourself before nerfing others.

Although, if universal melee does get in, then a way to block/parry would be perfect; then it becomes a contest of skill and nerve, in addition to the tactics and spacing in the approach. Maybe tapping for attack, and holding to block_

[innociv]

But big risk and reward can only go so far before it is detrimental to gameplay.


What if you had a weapon that instantly killed someone if only using that specific weapon, and hit a very special spot on another mech, like a certain bolt_  Otherwise, nothing.
There is a lot of risk that you'll constantly being doing nothing, but a big reward of one shot instakill if you're lucky.
And with melee weapons in Hawken, it's really going to come down to luck.  You're going to have a lot of fights you just can't win because you can't touch someone.  Then you'll have times when you instantly kill someone because they didn't see you.  That's not fun, for me.

Melee weapons in Hawken would feel like having nothing but Pawns on your side of the board in Chess.

[SixSeconds]

Then diversify; carrying a sniper rifle doesn't require you to be perpetually sniping, and a melee weapon doesn't force you to be a gambler. The dual-weapon system opens up a massive variety of gameplay options. You don't need to do anything; every choice has advantages and disadvantages, and it's a matter of adapting to your circumstances with the tools that you've picked.

[innociv]

But a big powerful gun intended to be used at long range still tends to work awesomely up close.

[PilotOmegaK]

I agree that there could be balance issues with melee weapons, so perhaps they should focus on weapons that have both short and mid range application.

Your mech would be more powerful up-close with these weapons without being completely gimped if you need to fire from a fair distance.

Some examples of these type weapons would be shotguns, slow but powerful burst weapons/explosive weaponry, low accuracy, rapid fire machine guns, ect.

This would reduce/eliminate the need for close range melee weapons in the sense that it would avoid the situation of having to make the melee weapons really powerful to make up for its inability to be used at range.

[SixSeconds]

innociv said:

But a big powerful gun intended to be used at long range still tends to work awesomely up close.

Won't deny that! But it's true that a big powerful gun with a slow, limited fire rate is risky and difficult to use up close.

[innociv]

A lot of players prefer using sniper rifles up close than other weapons.

I'm always using snipers all the time in BFBC2 and I just change between using 12x scope, normal scope, or red dot depending on the distances I'm going to be fighting at.

With melee weapons, there is no such option.

A shotgun-like weapon(Or something that shoots anything which dissipates over range, like something molten) serves the same purpose.. if you're in melee range, you'll hurt a lot.  If there is a little distance, you can still hurt some.

Melee weapons are so all-or-nothing.  You have to make them overpowered in their range to be useful, as they're useless outside that range.  This makes for pretty unfun balance for the person on the receiving end.


I just don't think melee works with Hawkens 2 weapon system.
It'd have to be a melee button that's independent of your primary and secondary weapon, but even then it seems rather senseless to me with the type of mechs we're talking about.

I personally hate those grapple attacks so many games have now days.
I loved the melee in Gunz, where you could block bullets, dash around, slice people, but I'm not sure that fits in Hawken.  (It was especially good because there were bugs in the game that allowed you to block and slash at nearly the same time, canceling out animations.  And you could cancel out animations allowing you to dash through the air infinitely.  Melee had big mobility and defensive advantages because of bugs that became a part of the gameplay. annoying movie and other stuff, but best I can find)

[SixSeconds]

A lot of players prefer using melee weapons up close than other weapons.

I'm always using melee whenever it's available in a game, and I just change between using a standoff weapon, deterrent equipment, or my melee depending on the distances I'm going to be fighting at.

With melee weapons, the options are strategic, not hardcoded in the equipment.

As for shotguns, you can look at every weapon in terms of its optimal range curve. Most weapons actually have performance curves, like the shotgun; the two that I can immediately think of that don't are sniper rifles and melee weapons. Both have range lines, since their performance doesn't drop. However, the melee line ends; the sniper line extends to the max range (generally).

Now, you could make the exact same arguement that sniper weapons are all or nothing; generally, it's an extremely powerful shot, followed by high recoil/slow fire rate/both, from a weapon with a small magazine. But, since sniper rifles can reach across the map, you can have melee power with massive range.

This makes for pretty unfun balance for the person on the recieving end, right_


Sorry, couldn't resist. That aside, I'm not sure what you have against melee in the dual-weapon system. Both melee and sniping are high-skill mechanics, if balanced properly; with Hawken's sniper rifle being a left-hand weapon, it only makes sense for a melee weapon to be left-hand as well. Then you'd be able to balance out either range discrepancy with your right hand weapon. I'm looking at what they've already got, though, and it clearly shows a slug rifle on the right hand in addition to the sabot rifle, so we might even be able to dual-wield sniper rifles. There's a shotgun, too!

Agree with you on the grapple attacks; where's the skill in mashing harder_ Gunz melee always interested me, even though I never played it. Excellent melee really boils down to a weighted game of rock-paper-scissors; block beats attack, attack beats throw (really, just anything that beats block), throw beats block, and the rest of the complexity is derived from movement and exceptions. So implementing top-notch melee in Hawken is basically out of the question, unless they designed with it in mind; I'm still holding out for a melee weapon, though.

(Also, bugs & melee have a long history; combos were originally a bug!)

[SpudNick]

I think melee weapons would work better as an attachment rather than a separate weapon.  You could lay down fire with your primary weapon as you move towards your target and when you get close enough your hand would automatically transform/Fold out into a buzz saw or a drill. (How cool would that look)

Buzz saw, Drill, Chain saw, and pneumatic spike would all be good weapons to use. You won't need a lot of fancy swinging animations ether. One simple stabbing motion and the rotation of the saw/extension of the spike would be enough.

[Crow]

I saw nay on melee weapons. Not too realistic and wouldn't make much sense to have them on mechs and Hawken gives a fairly realistic vibe. I don't quite see the point of it either, why not just kill them with a shotgun weapon upclose or something similar. I wouldn't mind either way though.

[Naraklok]

What happens when you run out of ammo_

MELEELASERSWORDOFDOOM_!

[Jyork]

I feel like melee weapons would really only be useful if you were able to sprint or dash towards your opponent to go in for the kill. Not from insanely far away, but close enough where they couldn't just move out of the way so easily.

But, Hawken mechs do have the ability to side-dash out of the way, so that could be a rude awakening to an opponent who missed you during their lunge, and now has their back turned towards you.

[MiNjA714]

This is a tricky topic cause I hate  1-hit-kill melee in Call of Duty but its kinda silly that these robots have as much armor and speed that they do and not have melee attack.  I dont want to give up my primaries for a stupid samurai sword.

MY IDEA IS to have the shift to charge in (like normally) and when your within range you hit the mouses buttons like you would normally, left click = left arm, right click = right arm.  Attack with your forearms and elbows like a caveman overhead bash or muy thai. (3 hits to kill maybe_ 2 hits at the same spot will disable whatever it is you hit)

the player on the receiving end can counter back (Not watch a death animation helplessly) Punch back to meet the attacker's arm and block the swing.  Strafing left, right, and back with good timing will cause him to miss and leave an opening to swing a hit yourself. Boost away if you too scared to engage the attacker

[--STYX--]

General Idea of Mecha-Melee-Combat: YES
Swords and other oversized stuff: NO

I´d rather suggest a military knife like a bigger M9 (similar to the one in the movie Avatar, at the end when they are fighting you can see the mechaknife pretty well)

also if they implement it it shouldnt take one of the existing slots but maybe rather be a backup/humiliation weapon for real close ranges on a tertiary fire button (like in mw3 where u knife with f) and dont do it an ohk-wep since it doesnt really feel right to kill a 7m armored vehicle with one slash just because you cutted it somewhere with a 50 cm Blade.

[White Hawk]

A melee weapon would make this game 10x better than without one. It would give you the knowledge that you could sneak up on your enemies unnoticed, and then kill them with a melee weapon. It would also help you if someone just came from out of nowhere and you were to close to shoot them.

[terminater]

how can we play and fiat in hk

[ENGINE-O]

Yea I agree that there should be some type if melee feature as a humiliation weapon or a last ditch weapon when overheated. It would add to the overall intensity of the game as you see your enemy rush head on with a giant knife or axe trying to get that last hit on you. That intensity can only be captured through this personal up close melee combat. Think of the sounds of two mechs clanging together in a melee engagement. There shouldn't be anything over the top because that is not necessary. A simple knife or axe type weapon is all that is needed to capture the pure intensity of mechanized melee combat.

[Stephanov]

Surely you could just use the shotgun-ish weapon from point-blank_ Or maybe give it a bonus when it is_

If you look at realistically, melee weapons are largely obsolete in a world with rail guns and gattling canons. So main armament_ No. Convenient tirtiary weapon_ Maybe.

Not that I'm opposed to having melee weapons, but if I was a million-dollar tycoon building weaponised walkers within a budget, I'd tell them 'Just use that damm flak cannon for close range, you think I'm made of money_'

[Apoteoza]

melee weapons.... I don;t want to see star wars lasers swords....
but the running mech could fall the hostile mech on the ground and make him unmovable or at least he could only turn on boost on go to the sky but not be able to shoot at us in the meantime.