76 replies to this topic

[QuanZen]

I'm open to this suggestion. But I do agree that giving our drones more functionality would greatly help players feel immersed into the game. I look forward to seeing how this turns out.

[Sinj]

Deuy, on November 19 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Long$hot, on November 19 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

I, unlike my fellow Dev Duey, would like to hear creative and innovative suggestions from the community and work together in an effort to improve the game.

That's great, welcome to the forums!  Glad you finally found the time to post something in the 20 months they've been up and running.  

Some one say burn_

But in all seriousness it's great to see devs doing this and once again makes me happy to support hawken!

[Skrill]

more like, stop, hit deploy turret, outline of the turret appears and you direct it to where you want it and hit ok, crosshairs re appear as your done launches to place the turret. making it a stop fire and then keep moving kind of weapon.

[[HWK]Long$hot]

Deuy, on November 19 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Long$hot, on November 19 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

if an idea is "liked" by a lot of people (which it is currently) then it should be in our interest to find a way to make it work.

A 7-4 vote 30 minutes after the poll went up is hardly conclusive, but of course people are going to like the idea, it sounds cool.  Have your drone come out and deploy your items_  Sweet, sounds awesome!  But it is also our job as developers to think seriously about the logistics of this stuff, how it needs to be implemented, and how it affects or changes gameplay.  That's what I am attempting to do, because I care about gameplay not just the fancy effects in the game.

Long$hot, on November 19 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

I, unlike my fellow Dev Duey, would like to hear creative and innovative suggestions from the community and work together in an effort to improve the game.

That's great, welcome to the forums!  Glad you finally found the time to post something in the 20 months they've been up and running.  

Long$hot, on November 19 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

I also like freedom of speech and the right for women to vote but perhaps these are things that Deuy and I differ on   

No comment.

My buddy here has been very typical of dodging the issue at hand. Clearly, he doesnt like this idea because I came up with it and he doesn't like it when I have nice things. He says its our "job as developers to think seriously about the logistics of this stuff, how it needs to be implemented, and how it affects or changes gameplay" without taking into consideration what the fans (all you guys) have to say about it. I've been reading through this thread and have seen some awesome troubleshooting ideas but maybe thats just me. Maybe I care too much about what the fans think is cool and take the time to go over their thoughts on how it would be appropiate to implement. Perhaps I should be more like Deuy and put the kibosh on ideas that I personally don't like, although the vast majority of people differ.  My opponent Deuy would be quick to quash a 7-4 vote (in favor of this idea in some capacity), heck, even 14-4 (which is where it is currrently), to fullfill his own hidden agenda. But to me I feel like every vote matters and clearly the ppl have spoken and it a resounding YES on prop "Drones deploy and launch items (DDLI)!"

Clearly, there is no reasoning with a person that voted for Roseanne Barr in the last election. So I ask you, the fans and supporters, to rock the vote! Vote Yes, to Prop DDLI/Freedom of speech/Womens right to vote/Things that Deuy hates and No to Roseanne Barr. Thank you all for your time and remember....YES WE CAN! (drops mic and walks off like a boss)*

[Culex]

Skrill, on November 20 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

more like, stop, hit deploy turret, outline of the turret appears and you direct it to where you want it and hit ok, crosshairs re appear as your done launches to place the turret. making it a stop fire and then keep moving kind of weapon.

An outline appearing before it's being built makes sense. This outline and drone idea reminds me of the good old SCV from SC2.



Of course the it wouldn't take nearly this long to build. Going back to an idea mentioned by Ace in another thread (I think the MG Turret is OP thread), this idea could encourage different types of the same item, like a light/medium/heavy turret and different amounts you have. The heavy turret may do the most burst damage, but it would also take longer for the drone to build, and maybe you would only have one in stock for a given life. Whereas a light turret would come in 3, would be a fast build, but would only offer light damage.

[Skrill]

that would add a whole new strategy to making kill zones for the enemy team to walk into and could add a sweet dynamic to the game so long as they weren't so powerful that the game basically turned into a really pretty version of team based dota. but having multiple kinds of turrets does sound sweet... i guess im on the fence with the whole multiple turret idea

[AsianJoyKiller]

I'm with Deuy on this one.

While it sounds cool at first, after I think about it for some time it seems rather gimmicky, and like I said before, gimmick are bad.
Now sure, it could work out well for items like turrets and holograms, but it really is rather absurd for things like the HE charge or an EMP.

Also, I'm all for raising the skill cap for item usage, but I believe that increasing the time it takes to deploy is a bad way to do it. Hawken is a fairly fast paced game and sometimes you need that HE charge now, not in half a second when the opponent gets back behind cover.

If you guys really want to take a look at how to make items more skilled, I'd take a gander at some of NotKjell's amazing posts on the topic.

[Ace4225]

Long$hot, on November 20 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Clearly, there is no reasoning with a person that voted for Roseanne Barr in the last election. So I ask you, the fans and supporters, to rock the vote! Vote Yes, to Prop DDLI/Freedom of speech/Womens right to vote/Things that Deuy hates and No to Roseanne Barr.

ahem.. I hate to burst your hype bubble, but aren't we not supposed to bring up issues of politics on the forums_

[Ace4225]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Now sure, it could work out well for items like turrets and holograms, but it really is rather absurd for things like the HE charge or an EMP.

Ace4225, on November 19 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

For weapon-type items [like H.E. charge and EMP] this would be unnecessary.

It's all good.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Now sure, it could work out well for items like turrets and holograms, but it really is rather absurd for things like the HE charge or an EMP.

Ace4225, on November 19 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

For weapon-type items [like H.E. charge and EMP] this would be unnecessary.

It's all good.

But that still doesn't address the fact that all the items take very little skill to use effectively.

[Bombshell]

Hats where I disagree if you really find a good spot for a turret you can get 3 to 4 kills off it before anyone notices it

[Bombshell]

Thats* with a poorly placed turret you may not get any

[Ace4225]

I have respect for your skill, Asian, but I disagree with your opinion that items currently don't/won't take skill to use. A well-placed EMP, jammer, shield, or turret have often saved my butt from the fire.

True, though, that they can be abused just as easily.. as I see people [sometimes including myself] get too close to their own EMP.. or drop a turret and then get stuck on it.

But one of the most annoying things to see in CB2 was when even fairly experienced pilots would just drop 3 items in one spot in a panic. Adding more strategic use of items could prevent people from wasting their items in the future and force people to think through using them.

Edited by Ace4225, November 20 2012 - 11:04 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

I have respect for your skill, Asian, but I disagree with your opinion that items currently don't/won't take skill to use. A well-placed EMP, jammer, shield, or turret have often saved my butt from the fire.

True, though, that they can be abused just as easily.. as I see people [sometimes including myself] get too close to their own EMP.. or drop a turret and then get stuck on it.

But one of the most annoying things to see in CB2 was when even fairly experienced pilots would just drop 3 items in one spot in a panic. Adding more strategic use of items could prevent people from wasting their items in the future and force people to think through using them.

HE Charges and Detonators are the items that currently take the most skill to use, and if you have a least some FPS experience with projectiles, then the required amount of skill is negligible.

EMPs, like HE Charges and Detonators are also a projectile, but honestly, they have a massive AoE, and it is very hard to miss with them in their effective range.

Radar items, shields and holograms are all about positioning, and honestly, after a few hours, you should know the maps well enough to make them fairly effective.

Turrets also require position, but they do damage and you don't even have to aim or fire them. You just find a good place and defecate an aimbot. That's what a turret is.

And things like getting stuck on your own turret or EMPing yourself is a terrible argument. That's not a problem/drawback of the items, that's just a lack of player skill.
If you (that's a generic "you", so don't get all up in arms about me calling you sucky) suck with a item, then it is not a matter of balance.

[Ace4225]

I think we're both arguing for the same point, just going about different ways of doing it.

You said you're all for increasing the amount of skill it takes to use items. So am I.

Try to picture my idea at work:

-having to decide where to place a turret will force players to only use them strategically, not randomly drop them in the middle of a battle to save their butts.

stuck on turret problem_ Fixed.
Aimbot problem_ Fixed. [it takes more time to place a turret with my idea in place]

Radar items and shields don't necessarily have to be dropped by the drone; we're not talking about using all items this way.

I think it would be cooler to use the hologram this way, though, as it would take more strategy to use it.

-hologram becomes a bit more convincing
-n00bs don't randomly drop it and run away for no reason

What I'm talking about should hopefully require more skill to use the items that currently feel OP [or aren't effective enough for the same reason] while at the same time giving new players more of a chance [assuming of course that training programs are in place to teach new players how to play]

I'm open to new suggestions as well, of course.

Edited by Ace4225, November 20 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

I think we're both arguing for the same point, just going about different ways of doing it.

Very different ways... In some cases your not actually arguing for true skill increases.

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-having to decide where to place a turret will force players to only use them strategically, not randomly drop them in the middle of a battle to save their butts.

You already have to do that.
Your suggestion just changes how you do it, not how much skill it takes to do so.

Quote

stuck on turret problem_ Fixed.
Aimbot problem_ Fixed. [it takes more time to place a turret with my idea in place]

How does that fix the problem of getting stuck on a turret_ And why is that a "problem" in the first place.
Getting stuck on a turret is a matter of poor situational awareness and lack of player skill.

Secondly, how does it fix the fact that turrets are aimbots_
Besides placing them, you still have to do absolutely nothing to make them work.

Quote

Radar items and shields don't necessarily have to be dropped by the drone; we're not talking about using all items this way.

I think it would be cooler to use the hologram this way, though, as it would take more strategy to use it.

-hologram becomes a bit more convincing
-n00bs don't randomly drop it and run away for no reason

What I'm talking about should hopefully require more skill to use the items that currently feel OP [or aren't effective enough for the same reason] while at the same time giving new players more of a chance [assuming of course that training programs are in place to teach new players how to play]

I'm open to new suggestions as well, of course.

You really think that instead of standing on the spot you want to deploy something that telling a drone where to go to deploy it takes that much more skill_

Beyond being able to hold down "F", there it is actually easier to deploy and reduces what little skill is involved in placing stationary items.

This does effectively zilch in making item usage more skilled.

[Mnemosy]

CameronKerby, on November 19 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

What if we had another drone that launches your healing drone_

Yo dawg I heard you like drones.

edit: Alternate Title: Droneception

Edited by Mnemosy, November 20 2012 - 12:12 PM.

[Ace4225]

All good points. Perhaps I should elaborate...

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

You already have to do that.
Your suggestion just changes how you do it, not how much skill it takes to do so.

You don't think a significant increase in the amount of time it takes to prepare a turret takes more skill_ With this idea in place:

-you'd have to stop momentarily to pick where you want the turret to go
-you'd have to wait a few seconds while your drone gets out and builds the turret
-the turret wouldn't be ready to activate until the drone is finished dropping it and has returned to your mech.

EDIT: note - your mech would be mobile while the drone is at work, but the turret won't be ready immediately.

That's an average time gap of about.. 6-8 seconds I'd say. In the meantime, you could be dead if you're not paying attention.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

How does that fix the problem of getting stuck on a turret_ And why is that a "problem" in the first place.
Getting stuck on a turret is a matter of poor situational awareness and lack of player skill.

It's not from a lack of skill. Here's what I was talking about:

there have been quite a few times I'm just standing still or walking backward and I drop a turret. However, when I do, I find that I can't move; not forward, backward, nothing. The only way to get "un-stuck" is to use my jets, which exposes me to radar.

That's not a skill issue; that's poor game mechanics.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

how does it fix the fact that turrets are aimbots_
Besides placing them, you still have to do absolutely nothing to make them work.

I'm sorry; I wasn't aware you had to manually control turrets in order to be good with them. That kinda defeats the purpose of having turrets in the first place, don't you think_

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

You really think that instead of standing on the spot you want to deploy something that telling a drone where to go to deploy it takes that much more skill_

Beyond being able to hold down "F", there it is actually easier to deploy and reduces what little skill is involved in placing stationary items.

Yes. You have to take the time to think about where you want it, whereas currently, you can just spam "F" until you drop your turret and it starts shooting at people nearby.

Edited by Ace4225, November 20 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ace4225, on November 20 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

All good points. Perhaps I should elaborate...

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

You already have to do that.
Your suggestion just changes how you do it, not how much skill it takes to do so.

You don't think a significant increase in the amount of time it takes to prepare a turret takes more skill_ With this idea in place:

-you'd have to stop momentarily to pick where you want the turret to go
-you'd have to wait a few seconds while your drone gets out and builds the turret
-the turret wouldn't be ready to activate until the drone is finished dropping it and has returned to your mech.

That's an average time gap of about.. 4-5 seconds I'd say. In the meantime, you could be dead if you're not paying attention.

No.
No I don't think it significantly increases how much skill it takes.

Unless deploying a drone to deploy an item locks you in place and/or disables your guns, it takes absolutely 0 more skill than deploying an item yourself.

Otherwise all it takes skill-wise is the ability to NOT BE BLIND, NOT GET SHOT and THE PATIENCE IT TAKES TO WAIT 5 SECONDS.
And hopefully your already have these skills and use them in other instances of the game, otherwise Hawken will be a very frustrating experience.

Quote

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

How does that fix the problem of getting stuck on a turret_ And why is that a "problem" in the first place.
Getting stuck on a turret is a matter of poor situational awareness and lack of player skill.

It's not from a lack of skill. Here's what I was talking about:

there have been many times I'm just standing still and I drop a turret. However, when I do, I find that I can't move; not forward, backward, nothing. The only way to get "un-stuck" is to use my jets, which exposes me to radar.

That's not a skill issue; that's poor game mechanics.

Ok. You should have clarified it was a bug before hand.

Quote

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

how does it fix the fact that turrets are aimbots_
Besides placing them, you still have to do absolutely nothing to make them work.

I'm sorry; I wasn't aware you had to manually control turrets in order to be good with them. That kinda defeats the purpose of having turrets in the first place, don't you think_

That's my point.
After placing a turret (which takes minimal skill), there is no consideration for skill.
A turret placed by a newbie who couldn't hit a broadside of a barn with a tactical nuke works just as well as one placed by a veteran player who could nail a fly between the eyes at a thousand yards.

Quote

Yes. You have to take the time to think about where you want it, whereas currently, you can just spam "F" until you drop your turret and it starts shooting at people nearby.

You already have to think about where you want it.
You figure out where you want an item, you go there and you place it.
All that your suggestion changes is that you tell something else to go there and it takes a little more time to deploy.

That does not take more skill.

[Ace4225]

ok. well, I'm seeing good arguments for why my idea may not be the best, but I'm not seeing any counter-opinions on how it should work.

-I am O.K. with the current system
-my suggestion was mainly to enhance the original topic of this post and to suggest a way this [awesome] idea of giving the drone more usefulness could be implemented successfully.

If you have ideas on how this idea could be altered/enhanced further so that it would take more skill, I'll be glad to hear it. [I never claimed it was a polished idea]

Edited by Ace4225, November 20 2012 - 12:43 PM.