25 replies to this topic

[devotion]

hi i'm devotion and the following is not for the faint of heart. my peak mmr is 2700 and i played competitive hawken in season 2 tpg for team axe attack. i think the most important priority for post-acquisition hawken moving forward in it's formative state is stability and content updates; but eventually, if everything goes well, i think we can look forward to balancing of existing content. i'd like to use this post to reflect my current thoughts on game state from the perspective of a "high level player". i welcome all input and encourage discussion.

• global suggestions

c class hp pools lowered

 

c classes are meant by design to be tanky. but i look at a mech like a brawler at 800 hp and compare it to the scout at 320 and the contrast seems too drastic. movement notwithstanding, they both have exactly the same dps potential assuming flak, and even more in the brawler's favor considering automatic weaponry. movement is very important, but in a competitive environment, the current hp values of c classes tends to be excessive. i don't have a good theory number to use; i believe this is something that needs considerable internal testing before implementation.

decrease tow dps by virtue of either lowering damage value or slightly increasing cd

 

i am a sharpshooter main. as it stands, i consider the tow rocket to be the all-around best secondary weapon in hawken. it has a fast reload rate and travel speed compared to other secondaries and it can potentially deal a whopping 125 damage. these are a lot of pros, with very few cons. as it stands, the tow rocket is also very dominant at cornerplay and is generally the preferred choice of weaponry for 1v1s as well. if you notice the mechs that have it (crt/assault, berserker, brawler), almost all of them are universally considered strong+ at all levels of play. i would propose lowering the overall dps of the tow by either slightly increasing the reload time, thereby leaving cornerplay relatively intact, or by decreasing the actual damage of the tow, leaving the feel of the mech's combat intact.

 

decrease sustained dps values

 

nowadays people look at the assault or incin and they feel that the mechs can be overwhelming. dave, as the universally agreed upon best hawken player, has a hit rate of ~37% with assault rifle on his smurf (i used his smurf's data instead of his main's under the assumption that his main's data will be less accurate for current usages, whereas his smurf should be a reflection of his current play) and even at 37% accuracy, his raw dps is enough to frequently clash 1v2. the potential ttk of sustained mechs is simply too low imo.

• internals

i would like to preface these internal suggestions with this: the state of hawken gameplay is stale. we are fully submerged into the orb meta, which seems to me like a kind of choking positive reward loop. creativity is punished and gameplay is corraled into one, optimal avenue. many of my internal suggestions are made with promoting gameplay diversity firstly, and initial, out-of-the-gates balance secondarily. for example, if air compressor 2 became an internal, it's very possible that the meta would simply shift to air compressor 2/repair kit 2/extractor 2. this can be addressed by removing the repair kit 2 and so forth. this is simply what i imagine when i think of a first wave of balancing changes.

 

air compressor is now a 2 slot internal

 

there is a certain school of thought that believes that air compressor should just be a default feature of mechs in hawken and the internal should be removed entirely. i personally like the concept of trade-off; you have to give up some of your internals to gain versatility somewhere while losing versatility elsewhere. i think customization like that is rewarding and by having more options not "default" on a mech, you create more sinks of both hc and mc which are important in a f2p model.

 

i'm rambling a little. by changing the air compressor into a 2 slot, you open up a large variety of potential load outs that are otherwise completely restricted by having a hefty 3 slot in place.

add reconstructor 2

 

the reconstructor is a little loved internal. the 3 is great, but hefty and very rarely best in slot, and the 1 has very small returns on several class types. it only feels remotely effective on a classes due to fixed healing amounts with smaller hp pools, but a classes are arguably the tightest mechs in terms of loadout. most times, the reconstructor simply does not make the cut. i think a 2 slot recon would fill a "sweet spot" so to speak.

 

decrease the total duration of armor fusor (slightly faster healing/time) and decrease the total % healed from fusor on kill

 

the only mechs that currently use fusor (it's almost mandatory actually) are c classes. this change is designed to re-balance c class mechs by limiting their total health healed, and to incentivize as and bs to be a little more adventurous with their itemization while simultaneously encouraging more aggressive play.

• items

remove either ism or emp

 

as it stands, ism sees no play. buffing the ism to be as useful as the emp would probably just create a frustrating mechanic, and the emp itself will always be a hot commodity as the only real crowd control offered in hawken. instead of trying to balance both items around one another, i am of the opinion that it's best to just remove one or the other for simplicity's sake.

scrambler dot is no longer stationary, number of dots decreased, dots no longer stray through walls and otherwise unpathable areas

 

quality of life buff alongside a preemptive nerf as the viability of the item increases. i consider this the lowest priority change.

radar now has a visible radar dot, no longer constantly displays information; minimap will update in infrequent "pulses" that are audible, implement an expiration timer for radar

 

radar is almost universally agreed upon as too strong of an item. before outright removal, i think these are all steps toward taking power away from the radar as such an oppressive form of information. my balance thoughts are designed to leave the "feel" of a radar intact while still removing a healthy amount of it's power as an item. as it stands right now, radar is a substitute for map awareness, not a compliment.

prevent orbs from "stacking", ie cap orb uptake at 1-2, decrease max orb hp, decrease rate of uptake from orbs

 

let's be real here. 99% of all "informed" mech loadouts encourage a 2 orb minimum, with the majority still going to three. a mech on two orbs can practically fight a 1v2, and on three+ orbs is basically unkillable outside of extremely coordinated burst. i usually advocate an incremental approach as far as balancing goes, but i don't think anyone would disagree with a heavy handed approach here, which i think is just a testament to how powerful orbs currently are.

give shield a brief period of invulnerability, decrease max hp of shield

 

i think items should feel impactful while also leaving room for counterplay. as it stands, i'm not convinced that being able to immediately destroy a shield upon deployment is a positive, impactful feeling for players. giving a brief window of complete invulnerabilty should allow shields to feel a little more shieldy, while decreasing the hp should ideally allow for a very similar effective hp overall.

• mechs

assault:

1. delete the assault

i don't mind the assault being strong. i don't mind the assault mech conceptually; what i do mind is that there are two nearly identical mechs and the paid one is almost strictly better. i've been asked on stream quite a few times "what is the best mech in hawken right now?" and i never enjoy telling them that it's an identical mech to their starter. a common complaint of hawken is that it can be a grinding experience; i would like to eliminate that issue where possible. my initial suggestion was to delete the crt and make the assault the default starter mech because of it's more consistent naming scheme and chassis, but the crt is now synonymous as hawken's poster boy.

 

technician:

1. decrease the rate of heal
2. decrease the rate of green beam
3. decrease the heat of tech primaries
4. decrease the cooldown of green beam
5. increase the tech's hp

in a 6v6 tdm environment, a tech vs. an uncoordinated team is overwhelming. i think one of the things i'd like to move away from the most is sustain in general, and the tech is the worst culprit. the problem with sustain is that the numbers are too high and sustain is too strong relative to expected dps; by green beaming someone, you almost guarantee an invincible mech. while nerfing the tech's heal values across the board seems heavy, i think the buffs in heat, cooldown and hp are enough to rebalance the tech in a still competitive manner.

 

brawler:

1. decrease damage of sa hawkins

brawler seems to be the game's best kept secret. several players i know agree that the brawler is the sleeper op mech of hawken; everyone universally thinks of it as a fat scout, but few players realize that it is also a fat assault. while i think the sa hawkins is too accurate for it's utility on brawler, i also think it's just generally too strong. a slight decrease in damage alongside the global proposal of decreasing c class hp values should be the required ounce of preventative i feel.

 

rocketeer:

1. change active ability to a durational buff similar to grenadier, increase projectile speed and increase rate of fire during duration

not too much to say here. the rocketeer is nonexistent in competitive hawken and only a handful of players bother with it in the higher mmr community. without considering broader questions like how is the state of hellfires in general, i think turret mode in general is oversold on c mechs. by giving it more utility out of it's ability, i think it should more able to fairly shore up it's poor fighting capability in cqc while being able to at-will increase it's lackluster dps in open teamfights.

 

i would like to note that i think hellfires will be very difficult to balance. they are very prevalent among lower levels of play and virtually nonexistent in higher play. any careless buffs may not leave them in a good place across the board.

 

these are the things i feel most certainly about at the moment. i have many other ideas, but nothing i would like to posit without some time to actually consider.

 

note to self: incin, bruiser, reaper, predator glitches, alternative weapon suggestions

Edited by devotion, 22 March 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[devotion]

reserved

[Grollourdo]

i think the emps and disrumptors are both good why not let them stay? its all preferences right? if ur a kind of guy who ambushes than u would use disrumptor right? and if u are the kamikaze type than u use the emp no? XD just sayin XD

[devotion]

i think the emps and disrumptors are both good why not let them stay? its all preferences right? if ur a kind of guy who ambushes than u would use disrumptor right? and if u are the kamikaze type than u use the emp no? XD just sayin XD

i don't think ism is even playable as long as emp is in the game. one is an inconvenience and the other is the only cc available in hawken. one destroys shields and the other doesn't. emp isn't strictly better by definition, but it's as close as you can get without going over.

 

 

Don't forget the "bunny hopping" across the map taking less fuel and longer distance traveled than an all out steady boost as seen in your video.  http://www.twitch.tv/karkat/c/6352897 @16 minutes in.  I even remember you talking about it in the video, but I'd have to relisten to the entire thing to find the exact mention of it.  

 

Also, bring up the topic of side dodges not requiring fuel management and giving players the unlimited ability to dodge.  Its often used as a mechanism to allow for a slight refill on your boost fuel gauge but still give you the same amount of distance traveled compared to a steady boost.

i don't really think of these as balancing issues as much as just gameplay tips and knowledge. i'm okay with both of them in practice.

Edited by devotion, 21 March 2015 - 10:13 PM.

[Jerv]

brawler:

1. increase heat rate of sa hawkins

brawler seems to be the game's best kept secret. several players i know agree that the brawler is the sleeper op mech of hawken; everyone universally thinks of it as a fat scout, but few players realize that it is also a fat assault. while i think the sa hawkins is too accurate for it's utility on brawler, i also think it can be fired too long without consequence. an increase in heat rate alongside the global proposal of decreasing c class hp values should be the required ounce of preventative i feel.

 

If the Brawler were the only mech that used that gun, maybe. But is the Brawler so OP that you want to nerf the Sharpshooter?

[devotion]

If the Brawler were the only mech that used that gun, maybe. But is the Brawler so OP that you want to nerf the Sharpshooter?

borderline, yes. i think the easiest solution would be to clone the hawkins and dedicatedly rebrand one as the ss hawkins or something so you can balance them independently of one another.

[devotion]

Exploiting poor mechanics is not just gameplay tips and knowledge.  They are issues that need to be addressed and fixed.  Your thread asks for balance suggestions and discussion.  I gave you 2 examples, and you completely disregarded them.  Why is that?  Do you think that a beginner player is going to somehow magically experiment and deduce that if he bunny hops across the map he can go further?  No, the only way he's going to be exposed to it is by running into someone that uses that exploit to get away and kite him into his death, just like you did in that video.  I realize theres some mechanical advantage that you are unwilling to give up, but just because you think its a perfectly viable mechanic does not mean that it is.

i think we just disagree on this, which is fine. i think most competitive games have a more "advanced" skill subset based around mechanical knowledge, whether it's wavedash and shffling in ssbm, k-style in gunz online, or boost hopping, repair canceling, etc in hawken. i personally don't have a problem with these kinds of things existing, because i think they lend depth to a game and add appeal to players who enjoy technical aspects to their gameplay. i am also under the opinion that hawken's mechanical skill cap is very low compared to many games and is generally very accessible between it's turn cap and all things related.

 

it appears you disagree and i respect your opinion. i just have my own and will openly represent it as such in my own thread.

[Plantblock]

No offense devotion but i diagree with most of the stuff u said. Lowering the hp poll of c-classes? Duede theses thigs already are walking targets for most players. Deleting Assault? why you dont have to by it. I kept using my crt for a very long time and i was fine with it.

 

If a mech is op or not depends on the players who use it and the mechs you use against them, not on the mechs they use.

[devotion]

Thats a pretty sad answer if you ask me.  It sounds like you as the 1% top tier are 100% unwilling to listen to anyones ideas on the games broken mechanics, why ask for suggestions if its just a one sided soapbox thread and you only talk about what you want to discuss?

i ask for discussion because dissenting opinions are more useful than agreeing opinions to me and are more likely to change my point of view on a subject. i am willing to listen to anyone, but my opinions are formed from my personal position resulting from hundreds of hour of competitive, comprehensive play. it is unlikely that my opinion will be changed often, but i welcome it if it does happen. i do feel like noting here that this initial core of balancing suggestions is almost "core" to me, whereas balance suggestions in the future will be more nebulous and i will be less decided on them.

 

i would also like to note that i don't consider boost hopping and other advanced techniques a balancing issue, which is the intended content of this thread. i don't think game balancers would worry about something like rocket jumping existing conceptually as much as the distance jumped, the time spent traveling, etc. i would expect that sort of complaint to be fielded toward someone interested in bugfixes and gameplay quality of life improvements rather than adjustments and tuning.

 

you are welcome to raise those points here, but, as it's outside my intended scope for this thread, i don't plan to give that particular subject much more traction outside of my stance of "agree to disagree".

[Grollourdo]

Wtf guys just DEAL WITH THIS DISCUTION AND BRAINSTORM we ain't gonna get anywhere in suggestions if there are two different things to fight opon just take one improve it and fuse all the solutions while it being a mix of all solutions possible.

If this makes sense....

BRAIN STORM AND FUUUUSIOOONNN HAAAAA! XD

[moosa17]

Some good suggestions Devotion. :)

I absolutely do not agree that class C mechs need to have their health reduced. Their sheer size AND their decreased mobility make them much easier to hit. They may be harder to take on 1v1 at close range with a light mech due to sheer tankiness, but Hawken is a team game(!), and heavy mechs attract a lot of damage. Mobility is an extremely important part of Hawken and the Brawler is strictly the least mobile mech.

I do agree with you that the Hawkins on Brawler is underappreciated for how good it can be. It seems like a mismatch. I also think it's the only thing that makes the Brawler interesting. It's challenging to use effectively as you need "pixel perfect" aim and there's no zoom function. But if you're that good with it the DPS you can do at range is pretty nuts. Maybe it should be toned down, but Brawler is one of the mechs that needs a purpose and something to make it stand out. The turret mode is pretty useless. 

Also, you really think radar is more powerful than radar scrambler? THAT's what should be nerfed first, if anything. I like that dots don't always path correctly. That's realistic and it lets you rule out some of the dots. 

I agree with you that turret mode on class C mechs in general needs significant work. In my opinion Rocketeer's turret mode is by far the best of them though. Even if Rocketeer isn't great for high-level play. I will say though that I've used Rocketeer on occasion in semi-hi level matchups and it seems to catch people off-guard sometimes. :P

Hellfires are crazy, and even if they suck 1v1 they can be ridiculous as a support/flank weapon in chaotic matches. In general I kind of almost like them... They can be frustrating to die to, but I think the lock-on warning indicator and jumping behind cover feels somehow like a part of Hawken. 

There's a bunch of opinions.

Edit - more opinions:

As far as items are concerned, I really think explosives are the most powerful, aside from maybe orbs and the aforementioned scrambler. Burst damage is already a big thing in Hawken, especially when you catch someone off-guard and get the first volley in, and when you can slap a button to add X more damage to a single unsuspected burst on top of your actual weapons it can be really devastating. Getting knocked down to 10 HP before you even have a chance to respond isn't much fun. Other items are fun and "tactical;" they add dimension to the game. Explosives just add damage. 

Edited by moosa17, 22 March 2015 - 12:24 AM.

[Grollourdo]

Some good suggestions Devotion. :)

I absolutely do not agree that class C mechs need to have their health reduced. Their sheer size AND their decreased mobility make them much easier to hit. They may be harder to take on 1v1 at close range with a light mech due to sheer tankiness, but Hawken is a team game(!), and heavy mechs attract a lot of damage. Mobility is an extremely important part of Hawken and the Brawler is strictly the least mobile mech.

I do agree with you that the Hawkins on Brawler is underappreciated for how good it can be. It seems like a mismatch. I also think it's the only thing that makes the Brawler interesting. It's challenging to use effectively as you need "pixel perfect" aim and there's no zoom function. But if you're that good with it the DPS you can do at range is pretty nuts. Maybe it should be toned down, but Brawler is one of the mechs that needs a purpose and something to make it stand out. The turret mode is pretty useless.

Also, you really think radar is more powerful than radar scrambler? THAT's what should be nerfed first, if anything. I like that dots don't always path correctly. That's realistic and it lets you rule out some of the dots.

I agree with you that turret mode on class C mechs in general needs significant work. In my opinion Rocketeer's turret mode is by far the best of them though. Even if Rocketeer isn't great for high-level play. I will say though that I've used Rocketeer on occasion in semi-hi level matchups and it seems to catch people off-guard sometimes. :P

Hellfires are crazy, and even if they suck 1v1 they can be ridiculous as a support/flank weapon in chaotic matches. In general I kind of almost like them... They can be frustrating to die to, but I think the lock-on warning indicator and jumping behind cover feels somehow like a part of Hawken.

There's a bunch of opinions.

SEE GUYS! XD TGIS GUY KNOWS HOW TO BRAIN STORM XS

plus I LOVE ur ideas in ur point of view XD I support it

[IareDave]

Thats a pretty sad answer if you ask me. It sounds like you as the 1% top tier are 100% unwilling to listen to anyones ideas on the games broken mechanics, why ask for suggestions if its just a one sided soapbox thread and you only talk about what you want to discuss?

Devotion calmy noted and expressed his opinion that he feels as though it's not a big deal and yet you CONTINUE to pester the issue. Learn to pack up your bags and walk away pal.

I agree with most of devos points and many players who have extensive practice will agree that the C dominant meta needs a slight dumbing down. If you take a full team of Cs vs Bs or As, or the perhaps a mix of different classes you'll find the full team of fats with a significant advantage. A reduction in hp needs to be made, but a slight one at that. The orb meta also needs to go to allow a lot of cool builds that are in the game but not competitively viable to stand up to the select few optimal setups.

Edited by IareDave, 22 March 2015 - 04:30 AM.

[devotion]

just to expand, as you get closer to optimal play, movement is offset by increasingly high accuracy. in a world where players are landing virtually every shot, raw hp is the best way to boost your effective hp as opposed to hoping your movement will throw them. in this regard, c class mechs are borderline overwhelming, especially in objective oriented gameplay.

[Jerv]

just to expand, as you get closer to optimal play, movement is offset by increasingly high accuracy. in a world where players are landing virtually every shot, raw hp is the best way to boost your effective hp as opposed to hoping your movement will throw them. in this regard, c class mechs are borderline overwhelming, especially in objective oriented gameplay.

 

How many people get to "optimal play" though? Not everyone who plays basketball is an NBA star, and not all Hawken players are bunny-hopping 720-no-scoping biological aim-bots. While the HP pool of C-class may be overwhelming in the ranks of the e-sport players, it's not so much of an issue for the other 98% of us who don't have 120% accuracy and the reflexes of a lightning bolt OD'd on Red Bull and meth.

 

For us mere mortals, the Hellfire and Radar Scrambler are far more annoying, and while using barricades to reach hidden ledges to climb to the rooftops on Front Line may be expected at high level, it's pretty much a cheap exploit in the eyes of us casuals. And burst damage is just a good reason to rage-quit; it's not like Hawken is the only game in existence.

 

Just remember that the meta is a bit different at differing levels of skill. What works for 2600+ MMR players won't work the same for us at ~1600 MMR or those at ~600 MMR, yet any change that is made will likely affect all, possibly severely enough that what one group consideres a fix, another will consider breaking things.

[comic_sans]

using barricades to reach hidden ledges to climb to the rooftops on Front Line may be expected at high level,

 

I do not think this is true at all and falls more on the unrelated bugfixing end of things.  It is a cheap exploit, but not really relevant here.

 

Also, everything posted seems gravy, and I'd like to see your thoughts on what to do about the incin.

Edited by comic_sans, 22 March 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[moosa17]

just to expand, as you get closer to optimal play, movement is offset by increasingly high accuracy. in a world where players are landing virtually every shot, raw hp is the best way to boost your effective hp as opposed to hoping your movement will throw them. in this regard, c class mechs are borderline overwhelming, especially in objective oriented gameplay.

A good point, but is HP really the culprit? Maybe 100% accuracy hitscan weapons are the problem? It could be a lot of things, not necessarily always the most obvious.

Jerv has a point in that only 3% of players are in the top 3%, and though that doesn't mean they should be ignored in regards to balance, it does mean that every balancing consideration needs to be made in the context of how it will affect all levels of play.

Reducing HP is a really heavy handed move. Good balance usually requires a lot more nuance. And if you think about it, any significant reduction in HP would bring most class C mechs close to class B HP levels, and yet they're still slower and much larger. None of the mech classes are overall stronger than any other in terms of damage output (I suspect that Berserker, an A class, has the highest DPS potential), so if we're going to choose to vary the HP it follows that the balance should come from somewhere else.

I will also point out that I am of the belief that while the meta is always an important consideration, it's never 100% correct, no matter how mature the game is, and Hawken is not the most mature shooter out there.

[Silverfire]

Keep the assault. I'd like to have multiples of mechs (different internal/items per mech), and its existence allows me to have multiple mechs with a CRT loadout if I so choose. That was the original intention and I'm okay with it.

[devotion]

How many people get to "optimal play" though? Not everyone who plays basketball is an NBA star, and not all Hawken players are bunny-hopping 720-no-scoping biological aim-bots. While the HP pool of C-class may be overwhelming in the ranks of the e-sport players, it's not so much of an issue for the other 98% of us who don't have 120% accuracy and the reflexes of a lightning bolt OD'd on Red Bull and meth.

 

For us mere mortals, the Hellfire and Radar Scrambler are far more annoying, and while using barricades to reach hidden ledges to climb to the rooftops on Front Line may be expected at high level, it's pretty much a cheap exploit in the eyes of us casuals. And burst damage is just a good reason to rage-quit; it's not like Hawken is the only game in existence.

 

Just remember that the meta is a bit different at differing levels of skill. What works for 2600+ MMR players won't work the same for us at ~1600 MMR or those at ~600 MMR, yet any change that is made will likely affect all, possibly severely enough that what one group consideres a fix, another will consider breaking things.

i understand this concern, and it's something i keep in mind when i come to balancing conclusions. as it stands, i consider all of my proposals so far, excluding the rocketeer one, in the best interest of the entire player demographic as a whole. i think it's very important to keep a game accessible across the board while simultaneously enabling a stimulating, fresh metagame.

 

for what it's worth, i think the hellfires in particular are a poorly designed item that are very difficult to appropriately balance. i have some thoughts i haven't finalized on how they could be rebalanced, but nothing i'm willing to divulge yet.

 

 

I do not think this is true at all and falls more on the unrelated bugfixing end of things.  It is a cheap exploit, but not really relevant here.

 

Also, everything posted seems gravy, and I'd like to see your thoughts on what to do about the incin.

i have a huge list of grievances with the incin's design honestly. all existing mechs have a modular design: 3 primaries, 1 secondary, 1 ability that influences stats, excepting pred/infil (even turret mode is a series of stat adjustments). the incin is inherently imbalanced because it pushes beyond that: it's got an additional heat absorption passive, firing the saare decreases it's heat, it has a moba ability for it's active, and it also delivers heat on saare hit. i wouldn't mind all hawken mechs being redesigned to this standard, but as it stands it is objectively gifted over other mechs.

 

beyond that, it just feels like it's kind of all over the place. it is too punishing against mechs that rely on ground based movement like raider/assault while not having enough game against airborne targets. it has an optimal fighting distance by design, but if you're even slightly farther than that, you essentially have to choose which one of your weapons you want to consistently hit with. the ppa is the only weapon which sees play, which means that there are two ded weapon selections. because the ppa generates so much heat, players only use the alternate saare fire, which means there's a ded weapon fire option as well. because it's weapons wind up, it prefers to continuously fire, which is awkward for covert map movement. this isn't even touching on the stats, like it being tied (i think?) for fastest c in game.

 

there are a lot of values that can be tweaked on the incin, but i think the best short term solution is to rebalance the stats (slightly less hp, less move speed, move weapon dps around, increased fuel tank), while internally working on a long term redesign.

 

 

A good point, but is HP really the culprit? Maybe 100% accuracy hitscan weapons are the problem? It could be a lot of things, not necessarily always the most obvious.

Jerv has a point in that only 3% of players are in the top 3%, and though that doesn't mean they should be ignored in regards to balance, it does mean that every balancing consideration needs to be made in the context of how it will affect all levels of play.

Reducing HP is a really heavy handed move. Good balance usually requires a lot more nuance. And if you think about it, any significant reduction in HP would bring most class C mechs close to class B HP levels, and yet they're still slower and much larger. None of the mech classes are overall stronger than any other in terms of damage output (I suspect that Berserker, an A class, has the highest DPS potential), so if we're going to choose to vary the HP it follows that the balance should come from somewhere else.

I will also point out that I am of the belief that while the meta is always an important consideration, it's never 100% correct, no matter how mature the game is, and Hawken is not the most mature shooter out there.

see, i think reducing hp values is one of the easiest nerfs. i remember seeing league of legends patch notes regularly where like a third of the cast gained +/-15 base hp and had their growth fractionally affected; i'm not advocating for an immediate 30% off with their heads kind of deal lol. i would gradually adjust values downward for c classes while being mindful of benchmark numbers (do i want this mech to survive 4-5 tows, do i want it to die in 4-5 ss volleys, what do i want the ttk on this x mech to be relative to that y mech, etc).

 

 

Keep the assault. I'd like to have multiples of mechs (different internal/items per mech), and its existence allows me to have multiple mechs with a CRT loadout if I so choose. That was the original intention and I'm okay with it.

i just think that both are unnecessary as long as they have a notable stat disparity. you could remove the assault and put the crt in the store at the 3k tier and accomplish the same thing without putting players in the position of having to buy an identical mech that's just better the next time around; that way, players that are satisfied with one loadout do not have to purchase an additional mech if they want to optimize.

 

edit: does ded wordfilter to ded? i've been trolled twice now trying to correct it.

Edited by devotion, 22 March 2015 - 10:11 PM.

[moosa17]

see, i think reducing hp values is one of the easiest nerfs.

You're right, it's easy, but that doesn't mean it's good. The worst way to balance a game is to bring the things you're balancing in to be more alike each other. Variety is a good thing. Hawken was designed with intentionally varied HP amounts. The more you try to draw those values in, the more you erode one of the primary differentiating factors between mechs in the game. This isn't just about "balanced or not balanced;" it's about how interesting and enjoyable the game is just as much. 

Hawken already has a bit of an issue with variety in mech gameplay so it's absolutely important not to bring that in the wrong direction. 

[IareDave]

You're right, it's easy, but that doesn't mean it's good. The worst way to balance a game is to bring the things you're balancing in to be more alike each other. Variety is a good thing. Hawken was designed with intentionally varied HP amounts. The more you try to draw those values in, the more you erode one of the primary differentiating factors between mechs in the game. This isn't just about "balanced or not balanced;" it's about how interesting and enjoyable the game is just as much. 

Hawken already has a bit of an issue with variety in mech gameplay so it's absolutely important not to bring that in the wrong direction. 

Adjusting HP values by small, but noticeable amounts will not somehow detract the different feel of the mech classes. This is the basis for balance, fine tuning specific values until the mech's perform at a competitively optimal level (and yes, this includes all tiers of play). 

[devotion]

You're right, it's easy, but that doesn't mean it's good. The worst way to balance a game is to bring the things you're balancing in to be more alike each other. Variety is a good thing. Hawken was designed with intentionally varied HP amounts. The more you try to draw those values in, the more you erode one of the primary differentiating factors between mechs in the game. This isn't just about "balanced or not balanced;" it's about how interesting and enjoyable the game is just as much. 

Hawken already has a bit of an issue with variety in mech gameplay so it's absolutely important not to bring that in the wrong direction. 

i understand what you're saying and i usually agree with it in the context of genres like mobas. these games have factors like 360 line of sight, defined lanes to be in, and dynamic hero and item progression to afford additional levels of balance and counterplay, but i'm harder pressed to agree with you in an fps. shooting tends to require more standardization than other genres, because all players are sitting in the same perspective in terms of turn cap, ability to boost, dodge, etc.

 

i would consider it differently if say c class mechs couldn't dodge entirely and a class mechs could, because then the game would be more asymmetrical by design.

[crockrocket]

2 slot reconstructor would be baller!

[moosa17]

i would consider it differently if say c class mechs couldn't dodge entirely and a class mechs could, because then the game would be more asymmetrical by design.

Well this is exactly what I'm getting at. There are different approaches to balance that can support asymmetry, or variety. You've just brought up one. 

And with that, we can note as well that heavy mechs have a longer cooldown time on dodges (1.4 sec vs. 1 sec for A class- a 40% difference). We could consider increasing that too. And in so doing further differentiate the mech classes from each other instead of going the other direction, while still moving towards balance. There are many options but that's a great example.

[LEmental]

This is one of the better post, but I think some things are preemptive.

SA Hawkens Brawler isn't game breaking right now so we can wait on that.

 

Tech can still be just as supporty.  I think if the healing was more preemptive rather than reactive, it would be better.  The tech's real problem is making sure all the teammates are topped off.

Edited by LEmental, 26 March 2015 - 02:25 AM.

[devotion]

i think preemptive balancing is fine if everything is in order.

 

if you want to see preemptive, i'm pretty seriously considering removing repair kit 2 and extractor 2 entirely on top of all the orb nerfs. they pretty narrowly missed the initial cut.

Edited by devotion, 26 March 2015 - 12:50 PM.