70 replies to this topic

[capnjosh]

Looking at some Item Use and Kill data for the past 7 days.  What, if anything, should be done?
 

 

As a reference point, here are the top weapon kills over the same time period:

 

Charts show how miniscule the Items are in terms of contributing to kills:
 
The Items' kills are somewhere in that mess at the top:

 
Bar chart!

 
Showing as a % of all kills over the last 7 days:

[ticklemyiguana]

It should be noted that the top two kill getting weapons are the weapons on the default mech, the assault. As far as the top two are concerned, this is entirely expected. Some of the others are unclear as to what they are, however it looks like almost all of the top 55% or so are weapons available on the assault, CRT, and berserker, not to mention individually available on the scout, brawler, vanguard, grenadier, bruiser, and infiltrator. As far as weapons are concerned, what the chart says is that "the weapons that are most common in the game kill the most people."

I don't have much to comment on in the way of items, because damage items aren't really viable at the moment due to being overshadowed by orbs, shields, and EMPs.

The notion stands though, that it is neat to see, and if these charts don't take too much effort, they will always be appreciated.

Edited once because distracted me mistakenly worded things rudely. Apologies.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 30 April 2015 - 06:22 AM.

[DerMax]

EOC is not even in the chart. Why? Because it is one of the most underpowered weapons in the game currently.

[capnjosh]

Definitely true on the "the weapons that are most common in the game kill the most people." observation.  And, yeah, lots of times this sort of data doesn't really present much actionable insight.  The question is mostly focused on the items - turrets and Grenade in particular - do you think there could be an increase in viable play styles if they were stronger or had a larger splash damage radius (or something else)?

[capnjosh]

And, yes, these weapon names may be different than expected - they reflect some of the difference between internal and public-facing names.

[LaurenEmily]

EOC is not even in the chart. Why? Because it is one of the most underpowered weapons in the game currently.

There is 'Weapon Repeater' in there, i think that's eoc.

 

Also, I see a 'weapon Cannon Ball' in there, what is this exactly ?  ? 

[DerMax]

Definitely true on the "the weapons that are most common in the game kill the most people." observation.  And, yeah, lots of times this sort of data doesn't really present much actionable insight.  The question is mostly focused on the items - turrets and Grenade in particular - do you think there could be an increase in viable play styles if they were stronger or had a larger splash damage radius (or something else)?

The items you listed here are all in a good spot at the moment. If you make the grenade or detonator stronger, I'll be able to one-shot any A class with a volley of EOC pucks + GL grenade + item, which is not fun for the recipient. If you make the turrets stronger, they'll become annoying, since they auto-aim.

 

What you want to focus on first is the annoying items, starting with the scanner � an item so much frowned upon by the community.

[Lioot]

I don't think items contribute to the large number of kills due to their relatively low damage (IMO) and the tendency to use them as ways to lower hp rather than kill shots.

 

Instead of using a HE Charge to get a kill shot, the most obvious and likely way a player would get the kill would be to use their secondary at close range, and primary at long range (also depending on what weapons the person has).

 

I personally use the HE charge to increase the alpha damage and scary factor; charged T32+Corsair on the Raider can give 300+. With a HE Charge, its enough to kill

[LiveBacteria]

I have no problem with items as they are now. Although, I feel there should be some way to regain items during a live-run, per say death drops on enemy mechs or a new universal equipable ability that regens an item..

I will give an example of how I use items strategically: If I am running myBerserker, the items equipped are level 2 Barricades, and any variant of EMP. I would normally encounter one or two mechs while attempting to flank or push. For pushing an EMP is useful, normally, in my case however I would use them to stun or blind an enemy mech then wail on them during the effects status. For a Barricade there are a variety of ways it can be used with the norm being used for cover during heals in push attempts, once again though, in my case I would use the Barricade as cover for one -v-one fighting with the use being cover and or getting a mech stuck.

I personally haven't used gren/det enough to have a valid opinion on them. I believe this is due to how I, back in the day, could't find a feasible strategy for them other than to use them as scare/overwhelm tactics.

So, that is the way I use items. Lol use that info or whatever :3

Edited by LiveBacteria, 30 April 2015 - 12:27 AM.

[Xacius]

This is fuzzy bunnyng cool.  

 

CSI mode engaged 

 

Let's break it down. 

 

The weapon with the most kills is the SMC.  No surprises there, as the Assault's starting weapon is the SMC.  It's also the most efficient sustained weapons in terms of DPS/heatgen ratio.  I use it regularly for that reason.  

 

I assume that "MissileLauncher" is the backend name for the TOW Rocket.  Again, no surprises that it's in the top 3.  TOW OP.  

 

The AR is in third.  Also a solid choice, but is clearly outclassed by the SMC in terms of heat/damage ratio.  It may have higher damage between 40-160m, but the 20% additional heat gen and lower DPS in CQC makes it a poor comparison in most circumstances.  

 

As for the offensive items, they're pretty trash at the moment.  The Det does, what, 60 damage?  When compared to a health orb that heals 170, plus more from internals, or an EMP that shuts down enemies for 3+ seconds, I'd choose 3 orbs/emps over 3 dets.  

Edited by Xacius, 30 April 2015 - 12:14 AM.

[IareDave]

    Here's what I think of this data, and I'm going to get right to the point: Sustain is overpowered. Yes, it is your starting weapon (assault), and yes it is easier to use than burst, but I've been playing this game for much longer than 7 days and my observations have been that sustain is simply too strong. I played heat infiltrator extensively for over a year and made the switch to sustain when the previous developers removed recoil when flying and reduced bloom on ground for sustain, upped the damage, and increasing the movement speeds which made tracking with sustain a lot more forgiving than burst weaponry. That is far too many buffs if you ask me. I'm not saying it's brokenly overpowered, but a slight nerf should be implemented. 

 

    On to the items: Damage items suck. Turrets? Only used in low tier. HE Grenade?.. Why aren't you using DET. DET? Only viable on the infiltrator/pred imo. The orbs, although they do not kill anyone, lead to far more deaths than any item combined. Orbs, when combined with orb build, is overpowered. Almost everyone runs mk3 orb/emp or shield. Det/nade deals around the range of 60 damage whereas an orb heals for 120 (significantly more with the orb build, and with a faster regen). 

 

   I figured this is an appropriate time to discuss balance changes that need to happen, and at the least be considered. Hell, people even name the orblord setup after me, and it's regarded as scumbaggy to most - even myself. But when a setup is that blatantly overpowered, and almost the entire comp. community runs it in order to be competitive, then that should be evidence that adjustments need to be made. Anyways, thanks for the data. 

[Noob_Cake]

The Det, HE and the 2 turrets contribute to so little kill is because most people are using EMP, Orbs and shield which are much better item :)

 

Edit: Xacius beat me already :(

Edited by Noob_Cake, 30 April 2015 - 12:16 AM.

[LiveBacteria]

More public data, as such in this post, would be nice to see.

[Aregon]

There is 'Weapon Repeater' in there, i think that's eoc.

 

Also, I see a 'weapon Cannon Ball' in there, what is this exactly ?  ? 

I think that is the HEAT cannon, as it is pretty much a cannon firing balls.

[DerMax]

    Here's what I think of this data, and I'm going to get right to the point: Sustain is overpowered. Yes, it is your starting weapon (assault), and yes it is easier to use than burst, but I've been playing this game for much longer than 7 days and my observations have been that sustain is simply too strong. I played heat infiltrator extensively for over a year and made the switch to sustain when the previous developers removed recoil when flying and reduced bloom on ground for sustain, upped the damage, and increasing the movement speeds which made tracking with sustain a lot more forgiving than burst weaponry. That is far too many buffs if you ask me. I'm not saying it's brokenly overpowered, but a slight nerf should be implemented. 

 

    On to the items: Damage items suck. Turrets? Only used in low tier. HE Grenade?.. Why aren't you using DET. DET? Only viable on the infiltrator/pred imo. The orbs, although they do not kill anyone, lead to far more deaths than any item combined. Orbs, when combined with orb build, is overpowered. Almost everyone runs mk3 orb/emp or shield. Det/nade deals around the range of 60 damage whereas an orb heals for 120 (significantly more with the orb build, and with a faster regen). 

 

   I figured this is an appropriate time to discuss balance changes that need to happen, and at the least be considered. Hell, people even name the orblord setup after me, and it's regarded as scumbaggy to most - even myself. But when a setup is that blatantly overpowered, and almost the entire comp. community runs it in order to be competitive, then that should be evidence that adjustments need to be made. Anyways, thanks for the data. 

So the question is, is it that the damage items suck, or rather that the other items you mentioned are OP? Should Josh buff the damage items or nerf the orb/shield? Or do both?

[Grollourdo]

Whats the problem here exactly? im sorry if i m a bit late on understanding ...... XD

[IareDave]

So the question is, is it that the damage items suck, or rather that the other items you mentioned are OP? Should Josh buff the damage items or nerf the orb/shield? Or do both?

Good question. I don't know for certain, but what I do know is orb build definitely deserves a nerf. I'd be interested in how damage items fair after the orb meta settles, and for starters I think turrets deserve some attention regardless. 

[devotion]

josh, with you now actively focusing on weapon balances, i would like to shamelessly re-plug an older post of mine: https://community.pl...ce-suggestions/

 

as for some of your more immediate questions: buffing the turret to a competitive level will promote defensive strategies (something to be careful of, imo. i think overly rewarding defensive play or not rewarding aggressive play enough causes a competitive metagame to become stagnant. see: the popularity of tech usage in tpg s1) and stiflingly effective at lower skill levels because of their less developed ability to judge and react appropriately to damage.

 

detonators are pretty okay actually, but they overshadow he charge. they fill a pretty redundant role as well, so i would imagine it's probably best to either remove one or the other (remove he imo, it's less intuitive), so you can get your damage item balanced standalone. if you're unwilling to remove an item, at least buff the he charge; as it stands, dets do about 50% of a tow while hes are a bit less than gl by %. they also have a less reliable trajectory and no push effect. if you aren't interested in something as drastic as outright removing the he charge, moving them in line with ~50% of gl damage and maybe a slight speed buff will probably prod them in the right direction.

 

keep in mind, none of this item balancing really matters until orbs are addressed. items not being played is a symptom of the larger orb problem, and diversity will continue to be driven down until orbs are brought in line.

[Guns_N_Rozer]

There is 'Weapon Repeater' in there, i think that's eoc.

 

Also, I see a 'weapon Cannon Ball' in there, what is this exactly ?  ? 

i think it's meant for Incinator fire ball 

[LiveBacteria]

The Det, HE and the 2 turrets contribute to so little kill is because most people are using EMP, Orbs and shield which are much better item :)
 
Edit: Xacius beat me already :(

I feel turrets aren't designed for damage output as much as an overwhelm factor. Overwhelm being multiple sources of damage, which add to the visual list to check for the main damage which is normally a mech. Its the same effect as a radar scrambler but more contained. Honestly these are normally my downfall when I lose visual sight of a mech :/ my minimap and hud are just spammed with sources lol

Edited by LiveBacteria, 30 April 2015 - 02:10 AM.

[Nept]

Omni's going to be making turrets the new competitive meta in TPG S3.

[LoC_TR]

There's definitely some interesting issues with the weapons, so much overlap over all the mechs. Sustain is so powerful right it's aggravating to play against and can be down right boring to play. Though I'm biased Raider fanatic.

A nice bandaid for the item balance might be to halve orb health amount, you could still orb lord but it's less drastic than changing the way internals function or increasing the damage of HE or det. Tricky situation.

I used to really like the HE but it functioned differently, it wasn't as fast but it bounced around corners and had a delay. I also seem to remember it doing more damage or having lower damage fall off than the det. Now det and HE seem to function too similarly.

[teeth_03]

While we are on the topic of items, is there any plans in the pipe on making an option to have the items globally unlocked? I don't like to buy them because they are expensive and only unlock per mech. I would however, pay real money for a global unlock option.

Also, maybe the Assault should have all MK1 items unlocked so you have a free test bed for items. I'm assuming the Detonator > HE Charge on the chart because the Assault has 1 but not the other.

[CraftyDus]

I know I'm on the right track when all my main's weapons are wedged indecipherabley in the scribbles at the top.

Love it!

 

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win"  -JFK, inspirational skrub-in-chief

 

 

[Kopra]

The Detonator and HE Charge were ridiculously nerfed when the Steam patch hit, being 80 and 85 damage respectively. They were nerfed even more shortly after that to 60 and 65 for who knows why, the guilt of the damage item perhaps. The damage items are only marginally useful, most of the time they won't make a difference in the outcome. They can make a big difference when it's about 1-shotting a Technician from stealth and you don't have enough time to make a follow-up shot before you have to get out. As others have said, EMP is more effective as a damage enabling item as 3 seconds of uncontested firing is superior to a damage that is a drop in a bucket. At least Detonator has a strong push force if detonated above an enemy's head and might result in additional fall damage if the enemy isn't pressing space bar or has normal reflexes to press it before hitting the ground.

 

The turrets are lackluster on their own, but stacked they can be effective only if executed properly.

 

I had a write up on them previously:

 

 

Singular turrets aren't of much use, unless well hidden, when they might become the winning factor of a fight. In my opinion the turrets are best used as loose groups where their effectiveness increases exponentially.

For simplicity's sake, let's generalize that both turrets have 20 dps each (MG turret has a bit less and Rocket Turret a bit more) and dismiss the burst factor (damage at t=0). With a single turret getting 1 second of fire before getting destroyed, it has dealt 20 damage.

Two turrets will deal 40 dps together. After 1 second and 40 damage one gets destroyed, continuing with 20 dps for one second before getting destroyed. 60 damage total. So two turrets equal as three singular turrets against a single opponent.

With 6 turrets you would have 120 dps that gradually degrades by increments of 20. (120+100+80+60+40+20)/20=21, so 6 turrets have the same effectiveness as 21 singular turrets.

If your whole team was to equip both turrets (12 total), you'd be looking at the same effectiveness as 78 turrets, theoretically that is. MG turret's dps degrades quickly at even short distances, but rocket turrets that are well hidden can do surprisingly good amounts of damage because the rockets don't miss that often even at long distances (only if the enemy is unaware of them). Even if the whole enemy team focuses on the turrets, destroying them in a matter of seconds, means that damage wasn't directed at your team and left the friendly team free to fire shots.

Why this doesn't work in practice is because players are generally awful at turret placement, they put them in places where they all get destroyed by 1 grenade or where they can be seen by a mile away. You should hide the turrets in places where your enemy's attention is best focused on you, and where them focusing on little turrets would be a death sentence for them.

So, an X number of turrets can equal or even exceed the abilities of a player. I would rather have 6 well placed turrets when defending a point than an average player, if that says something.

 

So, if the turrets are buffed, you will have to be careful of the stacking effect.

 

The stock item system in general favored items were previously on a long timer in a recharge based system... the strongest items right now are the Orb and EMP which both had long recharge times previously. "Throwaway" items such as the Hologram, ISM Disruptor, HE Charge were on a shorter recharge time to justify their existence. 

Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 30 April 2015 - 03:24 AM.

[Ninja_Goat]

Must be careful of Item balance at different levels of play.

 

An item set-up that is OP at causal player level, can be detrimental to the gaming experience of the people who's money will maintain and grow this game.

 

At a competitive level, 2 teams or a whole league, can ban out game breaking things (like radar scanner).

 

The scout for example needs a buff to make it viable at a competitive level, but it's already fairly well agreed that it's OP for casual players to deal with.  

 

 

As DerMax said, the EOC is horribly under-powered vs the skill required to use it, however the reason is that currently 6 EOC's+Grenade+Detonator cant 1 shot an A mech at full health.  People cried about that on these forums, even though Aplha striking in in most games out there.

 

 That kind of decision ripples down the stat lines, and can cripple that weapon on other mechs (example who would run EOC on a Rocketeer vs seeker ?).

 

Personally I don't have a problem with an assassination mech being abler to 1 shot A classes, it requires allot of skill to pull off, but that's a balance decision made by the last devs.

 

Either way care must be taken when making game changing decisions, as it knocks onto to everything else.

[DM30]

Re: HE Charge -- It needs something to differentiate it from the Detonator in terms of function. The damage they deal is so similar that the choice of one or the other mainly comes down to ease of use, and the Detonator's straight trajectory makes it much more reliable than the HE's arc. I'm not saying to do a straight damage buff for HE because then everyone will just switch to it, but maybe increase its splash radius or something to make it slightly more area-denial oriented instead of straight damage.

 

Re: Turrets -- I don't really have an idea for what to do with them. They're pretty weak and really all I see them doing is being a sponge for a secondary shot that would otherwise be aimed at a mech. But if you make them much better then people will complain about them since they auto-track and fire indefinitely. I see them in a similar light to Hellfires: The way they're designed means they can either be trash, or good but aggravating to play against with no real middle ground.

 

For the other mech weapons, SMC and TOW don't really have any true weaknesses so it's not at all surprising that they're the most used by far. Their pairing on the starter mech is a factor too but I don't think it's THE factor. Assuming WeaponMachine means Vulcan (which given the presence of WeaponMachineXTL and WeaponMachineXTR that seems to be a safe bet) that means the top 3 primaries are all sustain weapons, so that might indicate some balance tweaks are needed too. I don't want to go back to the days of burst being king by a wide margin, but sustain is just SLIGHTLY too good right now.

[CrimsonKaim]

There is 'Weapon Repeater' in there, i think that's eoc.

 

Also, I see a 'weapon Cannon Ball' in there, what is this exactly ?  ? 

 

I guess SAARE Launcher. Not sure if big or small.

THink I have seen it in the files somewhen and somewhere.

 

 

 

@Max: It is there but still, one of the most UP weapons ingame.

 

 

@Communtiy: Keep telling me sustained weapons are balanced. Keep telling ...

Oh and guess what, hitscan is somehow on the top .. mysterious ...

Edited by FakeName, 30 April 2015 - 06:25 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Removed because arguments. 

Edited by FakeName, 30 April 2015 - 08:09 AM.

[Sigil_]

Just to clarify, "WeaponCannonBall" does refer to the HEAT Cannon. You can see all the backend names in the page for a mech on Heroku.

[Sp3ctrr]

 

Weapon homing missile

 

Gee, I wonder which weapon that could be.

[hoghead]

So what are you saying Dusty .....Are we going to the MOON!!!!!!!!! For real!

[DerMax]

Omni's going to be making turrets the new competitive meta in TPG S3.

 

We've tried that when VP was active. 6 turrets placed strategically make a huge difference, especially on open maps. In fact, they grind down A classes almost instantly. Works very well in MA.

Edited by DerMax, 30 April 2015 - 08:10 AM.

[DerMax]

We can all agree on the H.E. charge being usless compared to the Detonator ('cause one can't detonate it manually). I have told you that when we played together :]

You can detonate the HE charge.

[CrimsonKaim]

You can detonate the HE charge.

 

I must have been way back .. when the fuel dispaly was actually built in the cockpit ... sorry.

Well, atleast I noticed the WeaponREPEATER on this chart.

[Hyginos]

I'd like to see kills graphed per use instance as well, rather than just kills.

 

Can you do win percentage by mech?

[PepeKenobi]

Very cool info and charts, indeed.

 

BTW,

throwing scanners and scramblers and turrets from a moderate height over an enemy should cause at least 1 damage point, post impact and just before the item bounces and gets fully deployed.

 

That would be hillarious if killing someone this way... lol

 

Not joking... methinks...

 

Note::: HC and the Incinerator' secondary weapons need to be revised. As well as Scanners...

Edited by PepeKenobi, 30 April 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[DerMax]

Throwing scanners and scramblers and turrets from a moderate high over an enemy should cause at least 1 damage point, post impact and just before the item bounces and gets fully deployed.

 

That would be hillarious if killing someone this way... lol

 

Not joking... methinks...

 

Note::: HC and the Incinerator' secondary weapons need to be revised. As well as Scanners...

Right now scanners, scramblers and turrets are not thrown but rather deployed where you stand. And if they were throwable, it'd be possible to land them in inapproachable spots where you simply can't find or kill them, which is obviously bad.

[Silverfire]

I know I use 3 Dets on my G2 Assault to give it a little bit of burst on a full sustained mech (and I generally run my universal MK I det on mechs i haven't fully outfitted), but other than that, on other mechs, all I have are shields, emps and orbs. Maybe a scrambler for comp games, but nothing else.

[PepeKenobi]

Right now scanners, scramblers and turrets are not thrown but rather deployed where you stand. And if they were throwable, it'd be possible to land them in inapproachable spots where you simply can't find or kill them, which is obviously bad.

You ninjaed me!

 

I've to try that out in the game. Ok, I know, back on topic