73 replies to this topic

[Hayseed]

It's something that I've noticed for a LONG time and yet I constantly come across people that will say something like "no, it doesn't need a nerf, it's fine where it is I like it" and THEN tell me "it's the best weapon of the game" IN THE SAME ARGUMENT. 

 

Do you people understand wth Overpowered means?

 

This is a game where you cannot simple "pick" up the power weapons (I.e. like in Halo) and it is not a game where you can just unlock the power weapons through leveling up and equipping them (i.e. Call of Duty) nor do you have to put forth a lot of  effort to acquire the overpowered item mid game (like in MOBA's) you merely spawn with the weapon attached to your mech....easy

 

And because of this, because you can't change the secondary weapons on your mechs, developers SHOULD be keeping a close eye on the power and strength on their mechs and their secondary weapons. Constantly searching for flaws in their design.

 

They are not.

 

Look at the stats for the TOW launcher compared to...lets say the grenade launcher. The grenade launcher is probably the best secondary to use against the TOW is all out open combat.

 

TOW DPS: 40

GL DPS: 36

 

TOW Accuracy : 80

GL accuracy: 65

 

TOW ROF (Rate Of Fire) : 5

GL ROF: 4

 

TOW effective range : 50

GL effective range : 35

 

TOW heat rate : 24

GL heat rate : 20

 

The only advantage the GL has over the TOW is heat rate....which isn't much of an advantage

 

The TOW's DPS is the third highest in the game...and it's effective at nearly all ranges

Has a large AOE, so even if you miss in close range you still do a considerate amount of damage

AND its spammable

 

So how the hell is it FAIR and BALANCED to OTHER MECHS?

 

Sure, the Predator technically does more damage...but you have to hit the mech with it, or stick it in the ground and hope they walk on it, or detonate it and hope you get splash. Neither one of these are very effective in open battle, where the enemy mech merely flies and hovers.

 

But the SAARE launcher does more damage i hear you say....well thats OP too, but at least its only used on one type of mech, a C-class...I might get to that on another forum lol. 

 

So how the hell is it balanced and fair?

[CrimsonKaim]

You will find a large amount of players supporting your statement with "TOW op".

Howevrr for me the main reason once more is not the damage nor the RoF but more the ease of use.
It is fast, straight and does not punish you if you miss once. I don't mind getting hit by corsair shots in difficult situations. 'Cause the Corsair is hard to use (no hitscan, high damage, low RoF).

I think the Tow should be that as well, high damage, low RoF, and decrease its flight speed.

Though we need another secondary for assaults then as it is the beginner class.

But yes. TOW OP ffs.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

I thought it was just me who thought this. Nice to not be alone with the feeling.

 

Thing is, the starter mech, Assault, is OP in every way - the fact that it's secondary is also considered OP should be a big enough statement. Sustained OP, secondary OP, OP ability, OP stats. There's no wonder why I hate it so much.

 

On topic though, I think that the GL and everything should just be made stronger. If it doesn't hurt to be hit in the face with a rocket, then there must be something wrong with either the weapons in this universe, or the armour being so powerful.

[ticklemyiguana]

Your stats are wrong. That's not your fault - the game has a messed up way of telling you what's what.

 

https://docs.google....t#gid=416460446

 

The TOW has no where near the third highest DPS in the game. Not even close. A fair portion of your argument is based on incorrect stats, so I'd suggest you revise. Your conclusion isn't objectively false, but it's not nearly as OP as you're making it out to be.

 

The grenade launcher also has a much high splash damage - which is advantageous in many settings.

 

 

 

 

It's 2:30 in the morning here. Would someone mind filling our friend in on this?

 

 

 

developers SHOULD be keeping a close eye on the power and strength on their mechs and their secondary weapons. Constantly searching for flaws in their design.

 

They are not.

 

 

Also, check the tone. We're not responsible for your gripes.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 20 May 2015 - 10:31 PM.

[JackVandal]

From what i can tell most of the TOW OP is from its ease of use, the GL, Corsair, hellfires, Sabots, ect all have a higher learning curve but just as much potential in a fight, its just to get that potential its harder, TOW is great on the assault because it supports that style of fighting well, same way GL benefits the Infiltrator.

 

The MRV mode of the Corsair can oneshot a scout with the EOC if everything hits pointblank, Sabot at range will kill a tech in two shots with powershot and slug,

TOW is just "good" at everything, while the other weapons are "excellent" at one thing, and "meh" at the rest, this doesn't make the TOW OP as much as versatile. TOW is okay at range and close, but will loose in both to MRV or Sabot in their element if the pilot is skilled. GL, iv been killed around a corner more times than i can count and submit Uptown into evidence for the GL.

[Hayseed]

Your stats are wrong. That's not your fault - the game has a messed up way of telling you what's what.

 

https://docs.google....t#gid=416460446

 

The TOW has no where near the third highest DPS in the game. Not even close. A fair portion of your argument is based on incorrect stats, so I'd suggest you revise. Your conclusion isn't objectively false, but it's not nearly as OP as you're making it out to be.

 

The grenade launcher also has a much high splash damage - which is advantageous in many settings.

 

 

 

 

It's 2:30 in the morning here. Would someone mind filling our friend in on this?

 

 

 

 

Also, check the tone. We're not responsible for your gripes.

Ok so ill need help reading that chart, but I'll take your word for it.

 

yeah its 2:30 in the morning here too....so what? Why are you here then?

 

Maybe YOU are not responsible for my gripes but the devs at Hawken are. If I was just one lonely son of a fuzzy bunny that hated TOW's I'd totally understand why they would just ignore me. But I don't think I am. And if a significant number of players feel the same way, that in order to be competitive they HAVE to use the TOW, then the devs should do something about it. Why spend so much time creating and designing these other mechs if they are not going to be used because they don't have TOW's? 

 

I left this game TWO years ago because I got so fed up with TOW launchers. 

I came back to the game....nothing has changed.

 

That being said I do have a special place in my heart for this game. Its graphics are beautiful, its mechs are beautiful, the music is beautful as well as the maps. Its just that I'm seeing a pattern here. And the pattern is that: 1.) the Pilot scoring the last kill in a deathmatch....has a TOW 2.) The highest scoring member of the enemy team or even your team....has a TOW 3.) The winning team....has more TOW's than the other team. I find that at least one of these are true about....70% percent of the time? I want to say 80% but I don't want to batch Hawken that bad. 

 

And the other secondaries are so much fun to use too! The Predator mech is just awesome! The Corsair is a really cool idea! The Hell-fire's make you question "this is the future where everything is a giant mech....why dont we have more weapons that lock onto giant mechs?" but then you say "aww hell its a videogame lets have fun!"

[ticklemyiguana]

So, I guess first things first. Two years ago there were different developers. The publisher and development team went bankrupt sometime in 2014. The game was purchased just over 2 months ago. The team working on it is a small part of a larger company, and two months is not a reasonable amount of time for them to start tweaking balance, especially since most of that time has been spent increasing server performance and performing maintenance, as opposed to playing the game.

There is literally no one on the forums for you to be upset at. Like, zero people.

That being said, everyone's open to some reasonable and informed discussion here and there. I'm on my phone now and sorting through a somewhat extensive spreadsheet on mech and weapon stats isn't my cup of tea for pre-sleep activities, but the TOW rocket fires once every 2.5 seconds, dealing 125 damage per direct hit, with a splash radius approximately the width of one mech.

I personally think it's rather average as far as secondaries go, but then again, it is by far the most common. It's difficult to label what is essentially the standard for secondary weapons as OP. As jack brought up above, it is probably one of the easier secondaries to hit with, with the grenade launcher and sabots trailing just behind. (The GL for its very high splash radius and still considerable damage, and the sabot for basically just being a "click on the mech" weapon effective at significant range.) More difficult secondaries to use would include weapons like the EOC Predator and the Corsair (on the predator and raider mechs, respectively.) however, these weapons are incredibly effective when used correctly, and if more mechs had weapons like these, I would without a doubt be using them.

The TOW is easy to use, but its stats aren't extreme. This is a game that has a pretty high skill ceiling, and it needs easy to use weapons sometimes - I personally just wish they weren't so common.

(This all being said, the hellfires are quite underpowered, both having a slower RoF than the TOW and a lower damage even if all the missiles hit, which they often do not.)

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 20 May 2015 - 11:57 PM.

[DerMax]

I have yet to see one top-tier player who doesn't think TOW's OP.  It is overpowered, and it will be nerfed sooner or later.

[dorobo]

It's a burst part of sustained mechs  without it...

[Kittles]

I've always felt that the remote-det mechanic should be removed from the game. Do we really need such a huge crutch just to hit a target? Not to mention, the hitboxes in Hawken are huge, and relative to their size, the movement in the game is actually quite slow. Beyond dodging it's not like you can rapidly juke shots with walking alone. I think the remote-det on its own contributes a lot to the "spammy-ness" of the game... that and the cooldowns.

 

I think more classes would become viable if they weren't overshadowed by how strong corner play is with remote-det.

[MajyckToad]

Boom Stick.

Yay!

CRT, or Assault of lately, woooo!

i prefer to play Floating FatMan Vanguard, or for Siege/MA Flying Fattress (AC:2Failsafe Brawler). DM or TDM works.

and TOW has been nerfed, the magnificent splash it used to have is gone, it's nearly useless now comparatively.

nerf TOW again, and watch more vets slam the doors on the way out.

NO.

just No

[Amish_Kommander]

i dont think its OP. sure, if you get a direct hit youre gonna do more dmg with any other AoE weapon. The ToW is designed for those long shots with almost precise accuracy because the weapon has a destination and that is straight with the exception of the slight zig zag.

 

The Grenade Launcher can be used around corners, bounced off walls, ceilings and even the floor. A ToW cant do that. Just like the Raider/ G2 Raiders' weap (i cant recall the name) but it has to be at a sligher higher angle to give it that drop OR it can be switched for an explodive flak shot. 

 

Ya the ToW might have better stats than other weaps but each weap is played differently. You wont try shooting a wall with a ToW or shoot a grenade while aiming directly at your target from halfway across the map.

 

Each and every mech/ weap is diff and has their own benefits when using them. You just need to find their strengths and weaknesses and strategize against them. 

[Amish_Kommander]

Boom Stick.

Yay!

CRT, or Assault of lately, woooo!

i prefer to play Floating FatMan Vanguard, or for Siege/MA Flying Fattress (AC:2Failsafe Brawler). DM or TDM works.

and TOW has been nerfed, the magnificent splash it used to have is gone, it's nearly useless now comparatively.

nerf TOW again, and watch more vets slam the doors on the way out.

NO.

just No

so they did nerf the AoE radius! i was wondering why my ToWs didnt get hit markers when itd blow up nearly in their face!

[n3onfx]

It's too strong compared to how easy it is to use, but I like the remote detonation. On mechs with projectile weapons (thinking about Heat Scout for example) it's a way to get some reliable damage in on people flying with AC, and while replicating the "shoot at a corner and detonate to splash someone behind" is not hard by just replacing it with shooting at the ground, I'd miss being able to shoot above cover and detonate to hit somebody standing below.

 

It needs to be tweaked a bit though, completely agree that it's too much of a "no risks and no downsides" weapon in it's current form. Maybe a slight increase in cooldown or a slight decrease in speed would be a good start to test things out.

 

The part where it gets nasty is on mechs with good sustain weapons coupled with the TOW, Assault and Zerker are too strong with that weapon combination and their current stats.

 

so they did nerf the AoE radius! i was wondering why my ToWs didnt get hit markers when itd blow up nearly in their face!

 

There's a bunch of hit reg issues lately, some of these problems may also just be the server acting up.

Edited by neon, 21 May 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[n3onfx]

duplicate post

Edited by neon, 21 May 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[Lioot]

Sometimes I detonate TOWs in my own face

 

Now that's OP

[Dawn_of_Ash]

Sometimes I detonate TOWs in my own face

 

Now that's OP

 

No it's not.

 

It's called a dumb move. :P

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 21 May 2015 - 02:46 AM.

[BaronSaturday]

It's too strong compared to how easy it is to use, but I like the remote detonation. On mechs with projectile weapons (thinking about Heat Scout for example) it's a way to get some reliable damage in on people flying with AC, and while replicating the "shoot at a corner and detonate to splash someone behind" is not hard by just replacing it with shooting at the ground, I'd miss being able to shoot above cover and detonate to hit somebody standing below.

It needs to be tweaked a bit though, completely agree that it's too much of a "no risks and no downsides" weapon in it's current form. Maybe a slight increase in cooldown or a slight decrease in speed would be a good start to test things out.

The part where it gets nasty is on mechs with good sustain weapons coupled with the TOW, Assault and Zerker are too strong with that weapon combination and their current stats.




There's a bunch of hit reg issues lately, some of these problems may also just be the server acting up.

I agree with the assault, I disagree with the Zerker. The zerkers low health pool makes up for it. The problem doesn't really lie with the weapons on the zerker, it lies in the fact that it's literally a light assault and any changes made to the assault weapons will compound exponentially onto the zerker. Balance the assault, kill the zerker. Really, they need to remove the assault and rename the crt the assault. Boom, problem solved. People are going to disagree, but the reason the FRED isn't used upstairs is because it's balanced and the assault has a more powerful battlefield presence. But people paid money for the assault so it won't happen.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I've always felt that the remote-det mechanic should be removed from the game. Do we really need such a huge crutch just to hit a target? Not to mention, the hitboxes in Hawken are huge, and relative to their size, the movement in the game is actually quite slow. Beyond dodging it's not like you can rapidly juke shots with walking alone. I think the remote-det on its own contributes a lot to the "spammy-ness" of the game... that and the cooldowns.

 

I think more classes would become viable if they weren't overshadowed by how strong corner play is with remote-det.

 

Kittles, this is too dramatic to start wtih.

 

Slow the ROF, nerf the AOE, make it a higher-skill risk-for-lower reward weapon, but please do not remove cornerplay from the TOW mechs. 

 

I would want to Advance-Battalion the game with the changes you suggest, but I could be behind smaller hitboxes.  We would ABSOLUTELY need to separate newer players from higher-ranks.

 

Edit: Maybe these could be Private-Server options in a day when Josh and crew can build safely and grok the game?

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 21 May 2015 - 03:53 AM.

[Silverfire]

I actually greatly prefer GL over TOW because of utility. Sure TOW might be a little more straightforward, but TOWs can't bounce around corners or arc over hills.

[n3onfx]

I agree with the assault, I disagree with the Zerker. The zerkers low health pool makes up for it. The problem doesn't really lie with the weapons on the zerker, it lies in the fact that it's literally a light assault and any changes made to the assault weapons will compound exponentially onto the zerker. Balance the assault, kill the zerker. Really, they need to remove the assault and rename the crt the assault. Boom, problem solved. People are going to disagree, but the reason the FRED isn't used upstairs is because it's balanced and the assault has a more powerful battlefield presence. But people paid money for the assault so it won't happen.

 

The zerker's power comes from its air walking capabilities coupled with its ability. A 15% damage increase on all weapons is nuts when coupled with a good sustain weapon, the difference between fighting a zerk with its ability and without is imo one of the biggest differences you can encounter in combat in Hawken. It's also got pretty high health for an A class (which I totally get, having only sustain weapons as primaries means you have to track your target more than with other A classes and open yourself to taking more damage). I don't think balancing sustain weapons and/or TOW in a small and smart way would kill the zerker as long as it has the same ability and air stats.

 

The CRT and Assault are very similar, not sure the differences in stats make them as different as you say.

[BaronSaturday]

Miner things. Health and speed are greater on the assault. I'm not sure that makes the assault "better", but it makes it more threatening in a one v one. The Assault tends to be more proactive opting for more direct pushes. Those miner stat differences gives it that slight edge. To be fair, I wouldn't put money on the Assault in a 1v1 with the CRT if both pilots are just as capable, but you definitely see the assault more in high level play even before the starter mech change and that says something.

Edited by BaronSaturday, 21 May 2015 - 04:47 AM.

[Roarschak]

It is hard for me to jump on the "[insert weapon here] is OP" train just because everyone has access to them so it is not like you are being forced into having the disadvantage. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying "No, don't change the TOW!", I'm just saying that each of us as pilots have the same opportunity to leverage a weapons utility as the next pilot. So, nerf it, great, I'll still use it and have a blast (no pun intended). Keep it the same, whatever, it's great fun to use.

 

I'm all for balancing the game but maybe we have our 'scopes' zoomed in a little too far for this stage of (re?)development.

 

~Roarschak

[Amidatelion]

I could have , but your entire tone and argument screamed "I will not be convinced because I am looking for an argument" so I didn't. It appears I was correct. I recommend others not either.

[IareDave]

All of my best mechs use the TOW and it is my favorite secondary by far. I've logged in nearly 1000+ hours using mechs that have the TOW and I can safely say it's one of the easiest, and most effective secondaries in the game. Is it OP? Yes, but only slightly. In my opinion you exaggerate it's use and effectiveness a bit too much as there are still plenty of players that are effective in other mechs with different secondaries but the main picture here is yes it could use a slight debuff.

 

I'd like to see a travel speed nerf on the TOW to put it near the level of GL travel speed. The issue with the TOW is that it has a higher skill ceiling than other secondaries and thus a good player can abuse the fuzzy bunny out of it.

[Amidatelion]

The issue with the TOW is that it has a higher skill ceiling than other secondaries and thus a good player can abuse the fuzzy bunny out of it.

 

Care to elaborate, oh milgelord?

[Dew]

Care to elaborate, oh milgelord?

 

Yeah, I'd think that TOW has the lowest skill cap of any secondary except Hellfires, what with the straight flight path, remote det, and low accuracy requirement...

[IareDave]

Care to elaborate, oh milgelord?

Skill base is the skill level needed to be effective with something - so an Assault would have a very low skill base and a heat scout scout would have a higher base. Ceiling is basically the skill potential for a specific action, in this case the use of the TOW. An experienced player can abuse the TOWs remote det around corners, predicting where the enemy will dodge and firing off a TOW, leading it from a distance etc. There's just a lot of opportunities for a skilled player to push the use and effectiveness of the TOW that newer players will not have the ability to do for some time. 

 

If you still don't know what I mean think of the sustain weapons in the game, such as the AR/SMC. These have a rather low skill ceiling/base in this game due to it being hitscan, the games turn rate cap, hawken's slow gameplay, and passive effects such as reticle bounce from movement and etc. which limit  what you can actually achieve with the weapon. Most top players will have somewhere around 30-45% sustain accuracy and not much higher than that. 

[HorseHeadProphet]

It's a missile with an explosive warhead. It's supposed to hurt when it hits you, or explodes near you, not just scratch the paint-job. 

 

Sounds like you just get killed by TOWs a lot and therefore believe that they need a nerf.

 

Well, maybe they could use a tiny nerf. But that's it.

 

Personally, I prefer to use the dodge function, and hiding behind cover to avoid getting struck. If you're continually getting TOWs dumped on you, you're probably in a crummy position, or trying to out-tank a stronger mech. Like Hellfires, TOWS are dodge-able. A lot of the so-called "OP-ness" of the tow can be countered by better positioning and heightened awareness. Yes, there are still going to be times when you get snuck up on from behind, or outnumbered, and get hosed.

 

Knowing that a TOW is going to fawk you up if it hits you, teaches awareness, positioning and smart dodging. See: high level A class pilots.

 

Also, this is one of the first weapons used by beginners in the game. Making it harder for new players to get kills is probably not a smart idea when we need to expand the player base.

Edited by HorseHeadProphet, 21 May 2015 - 09:27 AM.

[Amidatelion]

Skill base is the skill level needed to be effective with something - so an Assault would have a very low skill base and a heat scout scout would have a higher base. Ceiling is basically the skill potential for a specific action, in this case the use of the TOW. An experienced player can abuse the TOWs remote det around corners, predicting where the enemy will dodge and firing off a TOW, leading it from a distance etc. There's just a lot of opportunities for a skilled player to push the use and effectiveness of the TOW that newer players will not have the ability to do for some time. 

 

If you still don't know what I mean think of the sustain weapons in the game, such as the AR/SMC. These have a rather low skill ceiling/base in this game due to it being hitscan, the games turn rate cap, hawken's slow gameplay, and passive effects such as reticle bounce from movement and etc. which limit  what you can actually achieve with the weapon. Most top players will have somewhere around 30-45% sustain accuracy and not much higher than that. 

 

No, I get that, but I don't see how the TOW has a higher skillcap than a GL.

[Kopra]

When discussing skillcaps you have to assume the player in question is a Korean savant that can see in the future.
With that reasoning I see GL having more potential on top of being harder to utilize to its maximum.

[IareDave]

No, I get that, but I don't see how the TOW has a higher skillcap than a GL.

Dew is using the term skillcap as the ability needed to use it, so which definition are you meaning? Skillcap as in skillceiling? If so I think TOW has a higher cap due to it's faster ROF, and faster travel speed. In CQC GL definitely has a higher skill cap because you can be fancy and bounce it off of objects but the GL loses much of it's effectiveness at mid-long range due to it's abysmall travel speed and that's where a skilled TOW player can be effective. My highest accuracy on both GL/TOW is around 68% but the fact is GL is less versatile than a TOW at distances.

 

EDIT: Just because something is harder to use than another doesn't give it a higher skill ceiling. For example the EOC has a high skill base but even if used by a highly skilled player it doesn't ignore the fact that it's not a very good weapon.

Edited by IareDave, 21 May 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

Honestly none of the mechs I use regularly have TOW. I simply am not too interested in the weapon.

 

If it gets nerfed, no skin off my back. I can't speak much on it anyway.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Slow the ROF, nerf the AOE, make it a higher-skill risk-for-lower reward weapon, but please do not remove cornerplay from the TOW mechs. 

 

What Kittles is asking for doesn't remove corner play.

It just raises the amount of skill needed to be effective at corner play.

 

Just because something is harder to use than another doesn't give it a higher skill ceiling. For example the EOC has a high skill base but even if used by a highly skilled player it doesn't ignore the fact that it's not a very good weapon.

What kind of backwards logic is this?

 

It is exactly because something is harder to use that gives it a higher skill cap.

 

Being of poor quality doesn't magically lower the skill ceiling. It, in fact, raises the skill ceiling because the skill and effort involved in making a bad weapon equally effective relative to other, easier-to-use weapons is more intensive.

[StubbornPuppet]

It's my belief that the question of whether the TOW is overpowered or not depends highly on which mech it is attached to.  If you mech is slow moving, I think the speed, reload and remote detonation of the TOW is fine.  If you're in a faster, more agile mech, it provides a little too much more of what is already your mechs advantage.

 

What I think needs to happen is that the stats of the TOW need to be slightly adjusted for each mech that carries it.

[Benwizzle]

I prefer the GL to be honest. The tone of this guy has me avoiding to post anything worth reading as he is not going to be convinced.

[Amidatelion]

Dew is using the term skillcap as the ability needed to use it, so which definition are you meaning? Skillcap as in skillceiling? If so I think TOW has a higher cap due to it's faster ROF, and faster travel speed. In CQC GL definitely has a higher skill cap because you can be fancy and bounce it off of objects but the GL loses much of it's effectiveness at mid-long range due to it's abysmall travel speed and that's where a skilled TOW player can be effective. My highest accuracy on both GL/TOW is around 68% but the fact is GL is less versatile than a TOW at distances.

 

EDIT: Just because something is harder to use than another doesn't give it a higher skill ceiling. For example the EOC has a high skill base but even if used by a highly skilled player it doesn't ignore the fact that it's not a very good weapon.

 

No, I got you now, thanks for explaining.

[IareDave]

What Kittles is asking for doesn't remove corner play.
It just raises the amount of skill needed to be effective at corner play.

What kind of backwards logic is this?

It is exactly because something is harder to use that gives it a higher skill cap.

Being of poor quality doesn't magically lower the skill ceiling. It, in fact, raises the skill ceiling because the skill and effort involved in making a bad weapon equally effective relative to other, easier-to-use weapons is more intensive.

Note I said the EOC has a high skill base. I'm not denying you need to be good at the game to use it. But, You're ignoring the fact that the EOC is terrible fundamentally and it doesn't matter if you have flawless accuracy, great tracking and prediction etc because the weapon has poor dps, slow travel speed, many counters such as elevation and distance as well as air play.

I have yet to meet an EOC player worthy of top tier title and I will never see that happen until some sort of balance changes are made with the in-game content.

EDIT: Okay, I get what you mean. My wording was a bit off. My point was that there's only so much a person can do to push the EOC to its skill cap. It's just not a very viable weapon given its stats.

Edited by IareDave, 21 May 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

I think the EOC Repeater is fine as is. It is a weapon with a different functionality than, say, a machinegun.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Note I said the EOC has a high skill base. I'm not denying you need to be good at the game to use it. But, You're ignoring the fact that the EOC is terrible fundamentally and it doesn't matter if you have flawless accuracy, great tracking and prediction etc because the weapon has poor dps, slow travel speed, many counters such as elevation and distance as well as air play.

I have yet to meet an EOC player worthy of top tier title and I will never see that happen until some sort of balance changes are made with the in-game content.

EDIT: Okay, I get what you mean. My wording was a bit off. My point was that there's only so much a person can do to push the EOC to its skill cap. It's just not a very viable weapon given its stats.

Gotcha.