73 replies to this topic

[JeffMagnum]

I think the EOC Repeater is fine as is. It is a weapon with a different functionality than, say, a machinegun.

 

The mechanics of EOC are cool, but in terms of effectiveness, it's definitely one of the worst weapons in the game. It desperately needs some sort of stat adjustment to be relevant. 

[Hayseed]

So, I guess first things first. Two years ago there were different developers. The publisher and development team went bankrupt sometime in 2014. The game was purchased just over 2 months ago. The team working on it is a small part of a larger company, and two months is not a reasonable amount of time for them to start tweaking balance, especially since most of that time has been spent increasing server performance and performing maintenance, as opposed to playing the game.

There is literally no one on the forums for you to be upset at. Like, zero people.

That being said, everyone's open to some reasonable and informed discussion here and there. I'm on my phone now and sorting through a somewhat extensive spreadsheet on mech and weapon stats isn't my cup of tea for pre-sleep activities, but the TOW rocket fires once every 2.5 seconds, dealing 125 damage per direct hit, with a splash radius approximately the width of one mech.

I personally think it's rather average as far as secondaries go, but then again, it is by far the most common. It's difficult to label what is essentially the standard for secondary weapons as OP. As jack brought up above, it is probably one of the easier secondaries to hit with, with the grenade launcher and sabots trailing just behind. (The GL for its very high splash radius and still considerable damage, and the sabot for basically just being a "click on the mech" weapon effective at significant range.) More difficult secondaries to use would include weapons like the EOC Predator and the Corsair (on the predator and raider mechs, respectively.) however, these weapons are incredibly effective when used correctly, and if more mechs had weapons like these, I would without a doubt be using them.

The TOW is easy to use, but its stats aren't extreme. This is a game that has a pretty high skill ceiling, and it needs easy to use weapons sometimes - I personally just wish they weren't so common.

(This all being said, the hellfires are quite underpowered, both having a slower RoF than the TOW and a lower damage even if all the missiles hit, which they often do not.)

Well I did NOT know about the whole switching of developers and everything, That explains the whole "I've been gone two years and NOTHING HAS CHANGED" part. It is nice that they are working on server issues and performing maintenance .

[Panzermanathod]

The mechanics of EOC are cool, but in terms of effectiveness, it's definitely one of the worst weapons in the game. It desperately needs some sort of stat adjustment to be relevant. 

Effectiveness in what? It's a mine-layer. It's an effective mine layer. Good for alpha strikes. It doesn't need a stat adjustment, really. It's a heavily specialized weapon.

[IareDave]

Effectiveness in what? It's a mine-layer. It's an effective mine layer. Good for alpha strikes. It doesn't need a stat adjustment, really. It's a heavily specialized weapon.

Effectiveness in being useful, which its not. Anyone who isn't colorblind can spot a glowing hockey puck on the ground.

[BaronSaturday]

Effectiveness in being useful, which its not. Anyone who isn't colorblind can spot a glowing hockey puck on the ground.

But that's not the purpose of the pred. It's and Ambush/Luring mech. It requires first strike to effective or requires a lot of chaos. It tends to be most effective in Siege. Remember. ADH wanted Siege to be the premier match type and everything seems balanced with a king of the hill match type in mind. Unfortunately Siege didn't really live up to that... It is my favorite match type though. The Pred is a specialty item and is only useful in certain situations which is unfortunate.

So yes, I do agree. It needs a change.

[Grollourdo]

Tows are actually easy to use but hard to master.... OK not that hard but there's a Lil difficulty using them...
I like GLS ... God I looove getting that last strand of health by exploding DAT bomb XD

otherwise I don't think tow is op...

I think that we can't really say if a weapon is op or not (unless it really is) but we should say how it is op IN COMBINATION with the primary and how you use it/them...

[Nov8tr]

Tows are not OP because of ......................STUFF!! So there!!

[LaurenEmily]

The Pred is a specialty item and is only useful in certain situations which is unfortunate.

 

Sorry to kinda derail the thread here but isn't this applicable to any mech ? (outside of assault and maybe berserker of course)

 

I mean, this is the whole reason we even have different mechs and weapons. Otherwise everyone would just play assault and never anything else.

[Panzermanathod]

Effectiveness in being useful, which its not. Anyone who isn't colorblind can spot a glowing hockey puck on the ground.

 

It's a mine layer. Doesn't mean the mines have to be unseen.

 

I mean, what change would you give the Repeater? Or anyone for that matter? To make it more like a gun? Wouldn't it kinda defeat the purpose of it?

 

Yeah, it's not a weapon built for direct combat. Pred and Rocketeer aren't exactly staples in direct combat either.

[Flifang]

Increase the travel speed of eoc and i'll be happy. I wanna see my 46% repeater accuracy go up (this is only on one mech).

 

I can tell you right now that the numbers next to the ingame weapons in their description is pretty inaccurate. There is no way the Kla xt has the same dps as the Kla if they gave it a 1 second longer reload time and a much smaller damage boost to be able to have proportionally the same dps.

[Amidatelion]

It's a mine layer. Doesn't mean the mines have to be unseen.

 

I mean, what change would you give the Repeater? Or anyone for that matter? To make it more like a gun? Wouldn't it kinda defeat the purpose of it?

 

Yeah, it's not a weapon built for direct combat. Pred and Rocketeer aren't exactly staples in direct combat either.

 

The problem is that in something that emulates an arena shooter, anything that is direct combat is generally going to win in any given situation because you can just force the issue. The EOC isn't ineffective because it has a different role, it is ineffective because when it is faced with a direct combat mech it loses. Its role is made irrelevant. Same with a Rocketeer. Sneak an infil, scout, raider, breacher pred up to an EOC Pred or any flavour of Rocketeer and they die. They die because their weapons are ineffective. 

 

Example: The EOC-P is more effective than the EOC because it has limited remote det capabilities, longer uptime, a larger blast radius, more of them can be laid and (lastly and most minutely) is 1/3 as visible. Because of these things the EOC-P is a better minelayer and direct combat weapon because it has applications and capabilities the EOC straight up does not have. A Predator can absolutely be a front-line mech, just ask LE, Rain, Meraple and others. It's just to do so the skill required is phenomenally high and you need to run Breacher.

 

The EOC is fun and a hilarious alpha weapon. But no mech that carries it lacks a better weapon.

Edited by Amidatelion, 21 May 2015 - 06:03 PM.

[Grollourdo]

Lol

[Panzermanathod]

The problem is that in something that emulates an arena shooter, anything that is direct combat is generally going to win in any given situation because you can just force the issue. The EOC isn't ineffective because it has a different role, it is ineffective because when it is faced with a direct combat mech it loses. Its role is made irrelevant. Same with a Rocketeer. Sneak an infil, scout, raider, breacher pred up to an EOC Pred or any flavour of Rocketeer and they die. They die because their weapons are ineffective. 

 

I wouldn't call them ineffective, just not good at direct combat.

 

I only run EOC Pred. I almost never use its other weapons despite me knowing they are better in direct combat. Why? Because I generally do not go into direct combat unless I am trying to get in a good alpha strike against an opponent.

 

It *is* an overly specialized weapon. I don't mind that. Tossing aside the Rocketeer and EOC Pred aside because their weapons are "ineffective" just sounds limiting. And don't forget, the EOC Repeater shoots out multiple mines at once, not one at a time. I've seen some good Repeater use before, so I couldn't call it ineffective as a whole.

 

I use a Rocketeer (more than my pred), and I also try to avoid direct fighting if I can (although given some distance, I tend to do well enough if I get into that situation). I like the Rocketeer, and to a lesser extent Bruiser, as a means to annoy enemies, pick off some stragglers, and to pull off some trick shots.

 

I'm not saying pred can't be frontline. I'm just saying that some weapons do have more specialized uses and shine in those uses. Some weapons are more general purpose. Saying an EOC Pred has no chance against a Breacher Pred of equal skill is assuming the only times they would meet is in direct combat.

[Amidatelion]

I've seen some good Repeater use before, so I couldn't call it ineffective as a whole.

 

That's the thing though. Even in its role as a mine layer it is ineffective compared to the only other mine-layer in the game. The darts are 3 times as obvious as the pucks, have less uptime and far less control of where you place them.

 

Sure you can run two mine weapons on a Pred to double your minelaying abilities, but at that point, you're crippling your ability to respond to other situations. If you have crap ping or FPS, hurling mines into an AA may be the only way some people are relatively effective, but that doesn't mean they aren't ineffective. And sorry, with the ability up, pretty much the only way two preds are going to fight is directly.

[Panzermanathod]

It's one variant mine layer against another variant mine layer. Different capabilities.

 

And saying that getting EOC is crippling ones ability to respond to other situations can be applied to other weapons as well. At this point you might as well just use Assault and CR-T as they are the most general purpose mechs in the game.

 

But at this point this is just a mindset clash. I don't play Hawken with a mindset for combat efficiency. I play Hawken with a mindset for combat variety, and that includes using weapons that aren't good for direct combat. It's why I only run EOC Pred, it's why I use Rocketeer, it's why I don't use Assault/CR-T anymore, and it's why I never gave my Tech any other weapons.

[LaurenEmily]

the skill required is phenomenally high

 

According to who, and why exactly ? Alright, a lot of people seem to have this opinion but i cannot understand where it is coming from. Sure the predator is possibly the most unique of all the mechs but it's actually pretty straightforward.

 

-The breacher is a hitscan flak cannon that converts to a mid-range sniper style weapon when needed. Simple.

-The eoc-p is most effective when you get a direct hit, but the fact that you can aim at the opponent's feet & remote detonate it when it lands with a huge splash radius makes this one pretty simple as well.

- You get the heat-vision which makes it much easier to strike first / surprise your opponent. This makes it ridiculously easy to kill lonely a-classes even at full health.

 

Please enlighten me what is so phenomenally difficult about the predator.

[Draigun]

Hawken is a game that is all about positional and combat efficiency. Depending where you and your team are on the map, there are always advantages and disadvantages associated with that particular location. Corner play isn't necessarily key to pushing forward on some maps, and this certainly includes the TOW launcher as a tool to do so. If your team is losing due to corner play, or in this case, the TOW's splash radius hits yours and your teammates' mech, you have to adapt to that and respond. Almost every map in Hawken is large enough to allow defensive gameplay, which should be noted for when situations favor the TOW. You can either cause the enemy to react, or you react to your enemy. You have to know when to do one or the other in order to win against an opponent, or the entire enemy team.

 

The TOW launcher is straightforward to use, and in fact only requires a bit of decent accuracy to be combat and situationally effective. It's a slightly different story with CQC, since you have to suffer from self-damage and detonation is essentially no longer needed. Removal of the detonation would probably dumb down combat regarding all mechs that use it, since you now have to fire it from a varying vertical axis of flight to enable the splash damage. Flying is already frowned upon, and for good reason, since you're more vulnerable. A good part of functional combat regarding A classes with the TOW will benefit from this change�they will become stronger than sustained mechs, since their combat design is based around hit and run, for the most part. They also have greater mobility, so avoiding all projectiles, including the TOW, is second nature. There are just too many circumstances that A classes will gain the upperhand from a missed TOW; and if detonation was removed, well, you would be better off fighting in a situation where you have the height advantage, or just running away.

 

I'd rather see a reduction in either the splash damage or radius, or the travel speed, above all else. Other than that, TOW is fine where it is. A change to gameplay mechanics is currently too risky.

Edited by Draigun, 21 May 2015 - 07:33 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

Sorry to kinda derail the thread here but isn't this applicable to any mech ? (outside of assault and maybe berserker of course)

I mean, this is the whole reason we even have different mechs and weapons. Otherwise everyone would just play assault and never anything else.

I disagree. Most mechs are pretty viable save for the G2A, G2R, SS, Reaper, Pred, and Bruiser. Some are better at certain things, but 1v1 they're all pretty dangerous.

[CrimsonKaim]

I play EOC since I play Infiltrator, I olay Infiltrator since the start of open beta 12/12/12.

The EOC was way different back then. In the burst meta, it was the weapon you choose for the best alpha strikes, plus it has a good amount of terrain control. It was very effective in burst- and corner play plus the hit n' run tactic.

Today the burst is the only effective part of it. Its mines do 50% on the ground (100% is a direct hit).
One direct hit deals (correct me if I am wrong) 26 hp of dmlamage and a mine on the ground only 13.
So 6 mines deals just as much damage as 3 direct hits.
This damage only tickles even for an A class.

The EOCP, however, deals 65 hp of damage on direct hit an (!) 60 hp of damage as a mine. It fulfills its task as a terrain control weapon way better than the actual EOC ever did.

While I recently started playing double EOC pred, I can confirm the effectiveness of it as a mine layer, though, the power comes from the EOCP.

One more thing, the EOC is neither hitscan, nor instant, which keans it has actual projectiles (way harder to hit) and secondly (which is a damn huge disadvantage) it fires for like 0.5 seconds instead firing 6 pucks like a shotgun. This forces you to stay in sight with the enemy for that time assuming you want to hit something.


Conclusion: The EOC does not fulfill its task as a mine layer properly. Its younger but bigger brother, does this task way better than the EOC ever could.
The EOC is a pure burst weapon, not more, not less. And I consider it as one of the most ineffective weapins ingame.


Edit: sorry for so many spelling mistakes, mah phone ya know?

Edited by FakeName, 21 May 2015 - 09:27 PM.

[n3onfx]

Conclusion: The EOC does not fulfill its task as a mine layer properly. Its younger but bigger brother, does this task way better than the EOC ever could.
The EOC is a pure burst weapon, not more, not less. And I consider it as one of the most ineffective weapins ingame.

 

That's exactly the thing, it does not fulfill its task as a mine layer (the damage is puny, they are very visible and don't last long) in fact I don't think it was ever meant to be a mine layer, it just allows to zone a bit and is not very effective at that.

 

Couple that with the fact that it does not fulfill any role well in direct fights and you'll quickly see it's an UP weapon. It's sad because the weapon is fun and original, it could have a ton of potential as a high skill ceiling weapon if adjusted a bit. I don't think anyone can argue that its as good as other primaries. No matter how you look at it in terms of weapon role its UP.

 

It begs for at least an increase in the projectile speed, it wouldn't buff it's "surprise burst" capabilities that much and make it suck less in other engagements.

[Dew]

Increase projectile speed, buff mine damage, reduce impact damage. Maybe increase rate of fire to make it more viable after you release your charge. EOC shouldn't do more alpha damage than it currently does (hence the need to reduce impact damage if you buff the mine damage), but the mine damage it does if you don't get direct hits is pitiful, as is its DPS after your initial attack.

[StubbornPuppet]

Reading through all of this, I am reminded of why I thought (and still do) that Adhesives move, upon the Steam release, to increase the speed of all the mechs and reduce the time to kill was a bad idea.  Most of the complaints about one weapon vs. another's effectiveness I'm reading these days weren't an issue when the game was more about good location, good strategy and selective tactics - whereas now it's more about technical prowess and reflexes.

[DerMax]

I have yet to meet an EOC player worthy of top tier title and I will never see that happen until some sort of balance changes are made with the in-game content.

Oh, do you want to meet one? Because I magically have 650 hours on my EOC infil :)

 

And we have yet to duel on a EU server.

[IareDave]

Oh, do you want to meet one? Because I magically have 650 hours on my EOC infil :)

And we have yet to duel on a EU server.

Time & place bruh.

[DerMax]

I can play right now, though we don't have Test Arenas on EU.

[DerMax]

Hello? Davers?

[Amidatelion]

Time & place bruh.

Hello? Davers?

Steam, motherfuzzers, do you speak it?

(I just wanted a chance to type motherfuzzer again. Motherfuzzer. Ok, I'm done.)

[IareDave]

Hello? Davers?

You EU lot get on at like noon EST for us 'muricans. We'll set it up via PM

[CraftyDus]

record or it didn't happen

[Nov8tr]

Oh this should be interesting. Got to see this. We want video!! IareDave v DerMax. Do it! Do it! Do it!!!

[Hayseed]

I agree with the assault, I disagree with the Zerker. The zerkers low health pool makes up for it. The problem doesn't really lie with the weapons on the zerker, it lies in the fact that it's literally a light assault and any changes made to the assault weapons will compound exponentially onto the zerker. Balance the assault, kill the zerker. Really, they need to remove the assault and rename the crt the assault. Boom, problem solved. People are going to disagree, but the reason the FRED isn't used upstairs is because it's balanced and the assault has a more powerful battlefield presence. But people paid money for the assault so it won't happen.

The zerker DOES have a low health pool...for a mech...but it does ALSO have the highest armor for A-class mechs....

 

So the zerker gets the maneuverability of an A-Class...plus some tankiness (not much, but still) ...plus a fuzzy bunny ton of firepower...good luck trying to kill on in direct combat, it'll just freaking murder you 1v1, and good luck trying to kill it even in indirect combat, because it's so fast that it'll out run you if you're not an A class mech, or burst you down if you are an A class mech....

[BaronSaturday]

The zerker DOES have a low health pool...for a mech...but it does ALSO have the highest armor for A-class mechs....

So the zerker gets the maneuverability of an A-Class...plus some tankiness (not much, but still) ...plus a fuzzy bunny ton of firepower...good luck trying to kill on in direct combat, it'll just freaking murder you 1v1, and good luck trying to kill it even in indirect combat, because it's so fast that it'll out run you if you're not an A class mech, or burst you down if you are an A class mech....

Scout, Raider, Brawler. All burst, all pretty effective at dealing with the zerker.

[Derpy Hooves]

TOW effective range : 50

GL effective range : 35

I've made across bunker/last eco/bazaar kill shot/throws with nades before, plus your range info is wrong. If you see someone nearly dead, hail mary that SOB and hope it hits lulz.

[Grollourdo]

Lol guys XD