116 replies to this topic

[CraftyDus]

 

 

IareDave, on 22 May 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

NO. Stop trying to ruin my immersive mech simulator.

 

Edited by Crafty, 26 May 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Flifang]

The answer to your question is tectonic plates. (And maybe magnets)

Breacher kills the pilot inside because it goes through right? It's logical that a set of mercenaries developed the technology to fire while boosting through blitz and these major corporations have not yet figured it out yet, right? Let's not forget the fact that the only humans shown in reference to mech size would have to somehow drive cars that come up to their waist. Or how EU can just magically pop out a battleship like a glorified easy bake oven. Ammo magically is reloaded through spaces barely large enough to hold the secondary weapon's ammo through some sort of smoke and mirrors. Or how large and smaller thrusters have zero effect on the speed of the mech itself. I'm stopping myself here

[BaronSaturday]

The joints are not as free as you may think, although I do not know all that much I admit. But imagine flying really fast in the air, the wind would be whipping against the mech and restricting the movement. Also, if hydralic's really stopped the mech from collapsing, why does fall damage your mech and not your mechs legs? I doubt that the force of the impact of the ground on the mech is enough for the legs to be destroyed, but I think that the true damage is dealt to the actual body of the mech.

I still do not understand how the different spins and the pressure that they have to deal with actually comes into effect with the Air Compressor. ^^; Could you please try and explain in a different way?

Instantly truning a plan side ways while moving ar 345/kph is probably equivilant to stopping in mid air off a jump pad. The mechs aren't going nearly that fast. I'd imagine so anyway.

As for the damage, there aren't seperate hit boxes so it could be damaging anything, but if it is damaging anything, I'd assume it's the non cavorite parts such as pressure hoses, steel rods, shafts, the things that take the impact in the ankles, knees, and hips of the mech.

[BaronSaturday]

[Lion_ThunderPants]

Just gonna say that if I cant use AC while in mid-air from a jump pad, then something should be done about the hang-time. Or at least allow its use once youve hit the peak height?

[reVelske]

Considering how you are free to do whatever you wish once you've reached the peak, you would be able to AC during that period as well.

 

If you want to talk about physics and whatnot, it wouldn't make much sense to be able to cancel the jump into regular boost anyways, considering the thrusters aren't positioned in a way to just flat out stop the momentum, it'd be even more jarring than an AC mid-ascend.

 

I find it very hard to believe such minor things are enough to break anyone's "immersion", probably playing the wrong game if they really are. And from a game mechanics perspective, AC is working as intended, that is, side dodge in midair. The fact that it can be labelled as "exploit" just because it goes against some people's beliefs on how this game SHOULD work is really getting on my nerves a bit. Is there a bit of disparity between the fact you can AC mid-jump pad ascend whilst unable to cancel into boost? Maybe, just a bit, but it's hardly something to break out your pitchforks for. 

Edited by reVelske, 26 May 2015 - 11:15 PM.

[Niels]

This topic is not about blocking the air dodge on jump pads. It's about keeping the vertical momentum.

 

(adapted from an Image Houruck posted in an earlier topic)

 

And I think the physics question is better left out of it. We're talking about mechs that can hover using horizontal boosters.

Edited by Niels, 27 May 2015 - 01:20 AM.

[reVelske]

It would make more sense, sure, but is such a change REALLY worth the coding efforts required? I really don't see if affecting all that much TBH. Sliding yourself into a intended favourable spot mid-jump may require a bit more finesse with the change but how often will this even be relevant?

[Niels]

The relevance, I think, is largely limited to Origin. It's not extremely important, but unless the code base is in a very bad state the coding effort should not amount to much either. Just remove the "player->momentum.y = 0;" when the dodge shortcut is pressed AND the mech is in the air.

 

I could be wrong, but I think the momentum reset has to do with ground dodging, and the air behavior is just a side effect of that.

[BaronSaturday]

This topic is not about blocking the air dodge on jump pads. It's about keeping the vertical momentum.

(adapted from an Image Houruck posted in an earlier topic)

And I think the physics question is better left out of it. We're talking about mechs that can hover using horizontal boosters.

I'm not sure it's a necessary one. This doesn't really defy any physics. Maybe it has RCS thrusters on top as well we can't see. I mean, we don't see any type of thruster except on the back anyway.

[Derpy Hooves]

The relevance, I think, is largely limited to Origin. It's not extremely important, but unless the code base is in a very bad state the coding effort should not amount to much either. Just remove the "player->momentum.y = 0;" when the dodge shortcut is pressed AND the mech is in the air.

 

I could be wrong, but I think the momentum reset has to do with ground dodging, and the air behavior is just a side effect of that.

Minimal coding time required, yes. Ease of difficulty for coding it, okay. Need for something that's really a niche way of playing, no. Hayseed is the only person to have ever complained about this, and will most likely be the only person ever.

 

As for you physics heads, there's a few things we don't know about Hawken, those things are. Illial's gravitational force, average weight per mech, terminal velocity per mech, g-forces experienced in maneuvers, whole layout and exact understanding of suspension systems for each mech. How positive and negative g-forces affect pilots on the planet, kinetic energy built up from landing. Or if you want to go with the idea Niels has, what about centripetal force, angular velocity, and last but not least tangential speed?

 

If you wanna do physics don't do it half assed, explore everything pertaining to the subject. Most of which we don't know since it was never elaborated on, by any of the devs or in the books.

[Niels]

I guess you missed the part of my post where I said, and I quote for you, "And I think the physics question is better left out of it. We're talking about mechs that can hover using horizontal boosters". None of the Hawken physics makes any kind of sense anyway. The posts about physics realism related were made by others, not by me.

 

You must have also missed the part where other people agreed on the general idea, be it with posts or votes. So no, it's not just about Hayseed. I've never liked this behavior (AC does not bother me that much beyond that). The vertical momentum problem was talked a little about in the "Air Dodge for ALL" topic, and we all know how that topic went.

 

Here Hayseed proposed a simple fix, much more limited in scope, that may make the Air Compressor a little more versatile and challenging, with the added bonus of looking less silly in Origin.

 

As far as I'm concerned, and others will agree, the gameplay of Hawken is in a pretty good place. The main issues are small issues, most are balance related and some have to do with the gameplay itself. I feel this is one of them, even though in the grand scheme of things it's not a major problem.

Edited by Niels, 27 May 2015 - 12:19 PM.

[Derpy Hooves]

I guess you missed the part of my post where I said, and I quote for you, "And I think the physics question is better left out of it. We're talking about mechs that can hover using horizontal boosters". None of the Hawken physics makes any kind of sense anyway. The posts about physics realism related were made by others, not by me.

 

You must have also missed the part where other people agreed on the general idea, be it with posts or votes. So no, it's not just about Hayseed. I've never liked this behavior (AC does not bother me that much beyond that). The vertical momentum problem was talked a little about in the "Air Dodge for ALL" topic, and we all know how that topic went.

 

Here Hayseed proposed a simple fix, much more limited in scope, that may make the Air Compressor a little more versatile and challenging, with the added bonus of looking less silly in Origin.

 

As far as I'm concerned, and others will agree, the gameplay of Hawken is in a pretty good place. The main issues are small issues, most are balance related and some have to do with the gameplay itself. I feel this is one of them, even though in the grand scheme of things it's not a major problem.

Don't fix what's not broken, if enough torque is applied through linear momentum, sudden and sharp actions can happen. With thrust vectoring, if they make the thrust turn ever more to the left or right, does the engine and whats attached, not begin to move left or right depending on the torque applied through the vectored thrust? As more and more is applied vertical momentum subsides and horizontal momentum begins to take precedence. Just look at a motor vehicle accident, if a tractor trailor slams into the side of a pick-up truck, even though the truck is moving in a vertical fashion, and the tractor trailer hits said truck from the horizontal plane, does the trucks' vertical ascension stop and horizontal progression start? If enough force is applied Newton's 3rd law still applies, vertical will rapidly decelerate and horizontal with rapidly accelerate.

[StubbornPuppet]

I do not like the current behavior of Air Compressor combined with boost pads.  Keep the upward momentum intact when an air dodge is performed.

 

Stated.

[StubbornPuppet]

Just look at a motor vehicle accident, if a tractor trailor slams into the side of a pick-up truck, even though the truck is moving in a vertical fashion, and the tractor trailer hits said truck from the horizontal plane, does the trucks' vertical ascension stop and horizontal progression start? If enough force is applied Newton's 3rd law still applies, vertical will rapidly decelerate and horizontal with rapidly accelerate.

 

Huh?

How did the truck getting hit from the side result in the pick-up moving vertically?

[Derpy Hooves]

I do not like the current behavior of Air Compressor combined with boost pads.  Keep the upward momentum intact when an air dodge is performed.

 

Stated.

By physics laws and standards, which does apply to the game through the use of Apex. Air Compressors effect would need to be lessened in order to maintain vertical momentum. Which would be expressed as T = r x F = r F, or more simply the second law of motion.

[Niels]

Don't fix what's not broken, if enough torque is applied through linear momentum, sudden and sharp actions can happen. With thrust vectoring, if they make the thrust turn ever more to the left or right, does the engine and whats attached, not begin to move left or right depending on the torque applied through the vectored thrust? As more and more is applied vertical momentum subsides and horizontal momentum begins to take precedence. Just look at a motor vehicle accident, if a tractor trailor slams into the side of a pick-up truck, even though the truck is moving in a vertical fashion, and the tractor trailer hits said truck from the horizontal plane, does the trucks' vertical ascension stop and horizontal progression start? If enough force is applied Newton's 3rd law still applies, vertical will rapidly decelerate and horizontal with rapidly accelerate.

 

Applying torque will make the object rotate on itself, not change direction. Unless you take aerodynamics into account, but you're getting into plane territory. Not heavy mechs moving at less than 50 km/h for the most part (pulled this one out of nowhere, don't take it at face value).

 

Your physics does not make sense, sorry.

Edited by Niels, 27 May 2015 - 12:43 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

I guess you missed the part of my post where I said, and I quote for you, "And I think the physics question is better left out of it. We're talking about mechs that can hover using horizontal boosters". None of the Hawken physics makes any kind of sense anyway. The posts about physics realism related were made by others, not by me.

You must have also missed the part where other people agreed on the general idea, be it with posts or votes. So no, it's not just about Hayseed. I've never liked this behavior (AC does not bother me that much beyond that). The vertical momentum problem was talked a little about in the "Air Dodge for ALL" topic, and we all know how that topic went.

Here Hayseed proposed a simple fix, much more limited in scope, that may make the Air Compressor a little more versatile and challenging, with the added bonus of looking less silly in Origin.

As far as I'm concerned, and others will agree, the gameplay of Hawken is in a pretty good place. The main issues are small issues, most are balance related and some have to do with the gameplay itself. I feel this is one of them, even though in the grand scheme of things it's not a major problem.

In what ways do they not make sense? They seem fine to me. The only thing we really know is that Cavorite is lighter than poly carbon and stronger than steel. Nano Cavorite, which all mechs are now made of are more so.

[Derpy Hooves]

Applying torque will make the object rotate on itself, not change direction. Unless you take aerodynamics into account, but you're getting into plane territory. Not heavy mechs moving at less than 50 km/h for the most part (pulled this one out of nowhere, don't take it at face value).

 

Your physics does not make sense, sorry.

If you wanna go all technical, the Air Compressor(speaking hypothetically), where ever it is inside the mech is the pivot point, and torque is needed to pull the rest of the mech to begin movement into another direction, and then use thrust(force) for translation.

 

Do we know how Air Compressor works? No, general rules of force and laws of motion apply.

[Niels]

In what ways do they not make sense? They seem fine to me. The only thing we really know is that Cavorite is lighter than poly carbon and stronger than steel. Nano Cavorite, which all mechs are now made of are more so.

 

For starter, pilots should be crushed when the mechs dodge. And no, anti-g suits don't work here. They prevent the blood from pulling away from your head and central body, not your brain from splashing against your skull due to inertia when your body takes massive acceleration. Or your brain matter from sliding against your grey matter and cause hemorraghes and axonal degeneration. Or your liver from rotating around the hepatic veins and ripping them apart in the process. The list goes on, you get the argument. The human body cannnot take a lot of Gs, it's that simple.

 

You can also hover with your mech, despite the nearly horizontal boosters (really, look at them) and no visible thrusters to compensate. The mechs walk around with absolute stability on the most irregular surfaces while sponging missiles and bullets from all over. Even in the air they keep absolutely stable and never ever have to suffer from imbalanced torque. The mechs essentially behave like the old crates in Half-Life 1: always upright, always stable until the very last inch of their hitbox leaves the ground. And then, they fall upright, never falling over or anything.

 

Yeah, you can say Cavorite does this. But if Cavorite can do everything you want, then you have essentially redefined it to mean "magic".

 

Is this relevant? Not at all. This game is not about die-hard realism. Gameplay > Physics. But I think the fix asked for in this topic can improve both of these aspects (very slightly), so why not?

[BaronSaturday]

For starter, pilots should be crushed when the mechs dodge. And no, anti-g suits don't work here. They prevent the blood from pulling away from your head and central body, not your brain from splashing against your skull due to inertia when your body takes massive acceleration. Or your brain matter from sliding against your grey matter and cause hemorraghes and axonal degeneration. Or your liver from rotating around the hepatic veins and ripping them apart in the process. The list goes on, you get the argument. The human body cannnot take a lot of Gs, it's that simple.

You can also hover with your mech, despite the nearly horizontal boosters (really, look at them) and no visible thrusters to compensate. The mechs walk around with absolute stability on the most irregular surfaces while sponging missiles and bullets from all over. Even in the air they keep absolutely stable and never ever have to suffer from imbalanced torque. The mechs essentially behave like the old crates in Half-Life 1: always upright, always stable until the very last inch of their hitbox leaves the ground. And then, they fall upright, never falling over or anything.

Yeah, you can say Cavorite does this. But if Cavorite can do everything you want, then you have essentially redefined it to mean "magic".

Is this relevant? Not at all. This game is not about die-hard realism. Gameplay > Physics. But I think the fix asked for in this topic can improve both of these aspects (very slightly), so why not?

I don't think the mechs dodge nearly as fast as we think they do just as the jump pads don't move nearly as fast as we think they do. If you really watch the mechs position change relative to everything else, it's not actually as extreme as it seems to be percieved. Also, I will revert back to planes flat spining as this is usually very fast. It whips the pilot wildly and it also appears more extreme than it actually is.

As for Cavorite. It's stated in Genesis what Cavorite does. It is very strong, very light, not outside of any physics we umderstand (especially considering it's not dissimilar to graphene except that it's metallic). So I'm still not understanding how the physics doesn't make sense.

Edit: I'm in game looking at the dodge from third person and will change this post where needed.

Edited by BaronSaturday, 27 May 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[Niels]

If you wanna go all technical, the Air Compressor(speaking hypothetically), where ever it is inside the mech is the pivot point, and torque is needed to pull the rest of the mech to begin movement into another direction, and then use thrust(force) for translation.

 

Do we know how Air Compressor works? No, general rules of force and laws of motion apply.

 

If the AC is inside the mech, it cannot alter its motion. It's called conservation of momentum. And momentum is a vector, not a scalar. If you change the direction, you change the velocity and the momentum. Even if the speed (the magnitude of the velocity) remains unchanged. A reacting wheel could allow the mech to "rotate" in the air without any external thruster, but I don't see how that helps.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand classical physics. So please stop derailing this thread even more.

Edited by Niels, 27 May 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[Niels]

I don't think the mechs dodge nearly as fast as we think they do just as the jump pads don't move nearly as fast as we think they do. If you really watch the mechs position change relative to everything else, it's not actually as extreme as it seems to be percieved. Also, I will revert back to planes flat spining as this is usually very fast. It whips the pilot wildly and it also appears more extreme than it actually is.

 

I agree that we should actually quantify the forces involved. Intuition can easily be off, especially with the weird scales involved in this game. I'll look closer this week-end.

 

This does not adress the rest of my post, though. Such as the horizontal boosters. I mean, it's obvious when you pilot in third view. The boosters just don't make sense. I mean, hold the spacebar. How can you hover and stay stable? Better yet, spacebar + backward. How does it do that? :p

Edited by Niels, 27 May 2015 - 02:16 PM.

[reVelske]

I think someone needs to come up with an explanation to the way mechs dash forward before we allow any sort of actual physics and realism discussion, at least, if it involves altering mechanics for the sake of realism.

[Derpy Hooves]

I think someone needs to come up with an explanation to the way mechs dash forward before we allow any sort of actual physics and realism discussion, at least, if it involves altering mechanics for the sake of realism.

Force, the exhaust from the combustion of the engines(thrusters) on the mech. The exhaust acts as a propellant which in turn translates into force for propagation of forward momentum.

[Kopra]

Force, the exhaust from the combustion of the engines(thrusters) on the mech. The exhaust acts as a propellant which in turn translates into force for propagation of forward momentum.

I don't think that was what rV meant. The way how the thrusters are placed would make the mechs nosedive the very instant.

[Derpy Hooves]

I don't think that was what rV meant. The way how the thrusters are placed would make the mechs nosedive the very instant.

All depends on how the gravity works on Illial. That's the key missing factor.

[Kopra]

All depends on how the gravity works on Illial. That's the key missing factor.

Do explain your reasoning, with pictures.

[reVelske]

[BaronSaturday]

Had a video. Upload failed, will edit post.

[Derpy Hooves]

Do explain your reasoning, with pictures.

Well, gravity, momentum, force, etc can't really be defined well with pictures, but NASA's Glenn Research Center has some slightly interesting demographics as to how it all works.

 

https://www.grc.nasa...ne/vectors.html

https://www.grc.nasa...ane/torque.html

https://www.grc.nasa...e/newton2c.html

https://www.grc.nasa...ane/newton.html

https://www.grc.nasa...anslations.html

https://www.grc.nasa...irplane/cg.html

 

As far as the thrusters in game look at assumed how they operate, they're similar to ramjet/scramjet propulsion.

 

here's a bit more info that's relevant to their operation.

 

https://www.grc.nasa...plane/mass.html

https://www.grc.nasa...lane/conmo.html

https://www.grc.nasa...e/thermo1f.html

 

Since it's best guess on the operation of the Air Compressor, here's a bit more that may play in to it.

 

https://www.grc.nasa...lane/termv.html

https://www.grc.nasa...ane/angdva.html

https://www.grc.nasa...e/equilibt.html

https://www.grc.nasa...e/equilib3.html

https://www.grc.nasa...ne/bmotion.html

https://www.grc.nasa...e/vectpart.html

https://www.grc.nasa...ane/shortp.html

 

Granted this is all based on, aerospace/aviation as well as Earth space boundaries, since neither mechs nor Illial exist, there for there's no real numbers or mathematical equations for how they these laws and theories work within Illial's atmosphere. 

[reVelske]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't see how your info dump in any way explains the way Hawken mechs dash, that is, hovering whilst having the entire body slanted forward, with nothing more than a booster on the back.

[Grollourdo]

Oh my god..... I just got on from my long hibernation (exams keeping me from have hawken) ... And I see this....

OK ac is not op, ima not put any reasons cuz I'm too lazy to post AGAIN... Tho I do agree on keeping the momentum, it makes sense physicly and could be interesting for future gameplay and tactics...

So maybe we could do this?

Every dodge (every single dodge in any way) could maybe make you lose momentum? So if you dodge once from a jump pad, you go diagonal then if you dodge again, you start going horizontal, but you stop going up since all your momentum has been shifted towards the dodge direction.

In resume XD IMPLEMENT DA PHYSICS WE ARE LEARNING IN 9TH GRADE THIS YEAR XD

[Grollourdo]

Also I do not think its exploits, cuz if you take advantage of a class being slower than yours then you are basicly "exploiting" that as well...

[Niels]

...

 

No, explain clearly how you think it can work. The boost forward, for example.The thrust affects the top of the mech, way above the center of mass.

 

 

As you said earlier, ? = r x F. So how does the mech not pivot around the center of mass (the big green dot) and crash head first into the ground?

 

Hint: it does crash. Three possible solutions against it:

- aerodynamics, but if anything here they probably make it worse because of the large drag created by the legs

- lower the boosters to align with the center of mass, to have r = 0

- thrusters to counterbalance the torque induced by the boosters (I don't see any)

 

Now can we stop this nonsense and go back to the actual suggestion?

Edited by Niels, 28 May 2015 - 03:47 AM.

[Kopra]

-snip-

You specifically mention that gravity is the key factor yet fail to explain why. Throwing a bunch of links doesn't convince anyone when all you needed to do was to explain your idea in a picture (a free body diagram, for example) where you would explain how the force from torque (spinning motion) is transformed or otherwise compensated into a thrusting force (forward motion).

What I think is the most plausible solution to all of this is that the artists of the game simply didn't take physics into account when creating the assets.

Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 28 May 2015 - 03:48 AM.

[BaronSaturday]

No, explain clearly how you think it can work. The boost forward, for example.The thrust affects the top of the mech, way above the center of mass.



As you said earlier, ? = r x F. So how does the mech not pivot around the center of mass (the big green dot) and crash head first into the ground?

Hint: it does crash. Three possible solutions against it:
- aerodynamics, but if anything here they probably make it worse because of the large drag created by the legs
- lower the boosters to align with the center of mass, to have r = 0
- thrusters to counterbalance the torque induced by the boosters (I don't see any)

Now can we stop this nonsense and go back to the actual suggestion?

RCS thrusters. RCS thrusters. Easy fix. Given there's no visual for the AC... RCS thrusters.

[Grollourdo]

... We are on illal ... Might not have the same physics as earth?

Idk I'm just sayin...

[BIsmuthZornisse]

No, explain clearly how you think it can work. The boost forward, for example.The thrust affects the top of the mech, way above the center of mass.

 

 

As you said earlier, ? = r x F. So how does the mech not pivot around the center of mass (the big green dot) and crash head first into the ground?

 

Hint: it does crash. Three possible solutions against it:

- aerodynamics, but if anything here they probably make it worse because of the large drag created by the legs

- lower the boosters to align with the center of mass, to have r = 0

- thrusters to counterbalance the torque induced by the boosters (I don't see any)

 

Now can we stop this nonsense and go back to the actual suggestion?

another solution: the mechs run instead of hover while being pushed forward by the thrusters.

 

as for the topic, yeah, the air compressor shouldn't cancel the upward momentum.

[Niels]

RCS thrusters. RCS thrusters. Easy fix. Given there's no visual for the AC... RCS thrusters.

 

Sure, I mentioned it. It's the most probable solution, but we don't see them. And the torque looks massive, so I hope they pack a punch. And the other situations are even more ridiculous from a physics point of view:

 

 

How do the mechs stay in the air? Their is barely any vertical component to the thrust visible in this picture. And yet they can hover without going forward, and without any torque. And they can even go backward :)

 

The RCS thrusters would have to be much bigger than the boosters to compensate for it.

 

As Kopra said, it's very probable the artists didn't worry much about it. And honestly, I don't care much. I'm just getting dragged into this discussion, because... well, you know :)