116 replies to this topic

[reVelske]

... We are on illal ... Might not have the same physics as earth?

Idk I'm just sayin...

 

Then any and all physics talk is pointless, because ANYTHING could be possible. As such "realism" and "physics" cannot be used as an argument against jumppad AC, you can't selectively choose what you think should adhere to our law of physics.

 

 

another solution: the mechs run instead of hover while being pushed forward by the thrusters.

 

We don't need a solution, nobody is really complaining about the dash animation, it looks cool, it does the job, so it's all well and good. It is simply brought up to point out that physics discussion is rather moot in the context of Hawken.

[Grollourdo]

Lil side note... Even if we implement the no canceling the up ward motion by keeping momentum, I think people will still complain since we still go a different direction and all...

I vision these sayings:

1st post

Ac should not be used while projected by jumpads, its an exploit, its hard to hit, its in predictable, etc

2nd post
Get better, we already changed it for y'all complainers blah blah blah

The rest:

Constructive ways to change ac AGAIN...

[BIsmuthZornisse]

nobody is really complaining about the dash animation, it looks cool,

i disagree with it looking cool, i'd actually complain about it, but this kind of purely cosmetic change is a very low priority concern for me. Balancing game mechanics is much more important.

[BaronSaturday]

To be fair. I can't answer for the thrusters. In their current form, they make little sense. It's everything else. After really evaluating I can't really find any contention with the physics. I'll get my video uploaded tonight.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

Then any and all physics talk is pointless, because ANYTHING could be possible. As such "realism" and "physics" cannot be used as an argument against jumppad AC, you can't selectively choose what you think should adhere to our law of physics.

 

When Cavolrite (or however you spell it), was when anything could have happened. Although it is not impossible to calculate the gravity of Illal by comparing the size of the mech to find out the height at which a mech falls, then also time how long it takes to cover that distance, and you should be able to get the gravity. But then again, you would also need to know the mass of the mech as well, which would be hard.

 

My main problem is Cavorite, because it's basically the mythril of this game's world. I cannot imagine how something can be so strong, yet also be so light. Graphene is a prime example of this, but it also has some nasty side effects to it, which is the reason why everything is not made from graphene nowadays. Only way I can think of Cavorite is if it's a modified graphene which is completely made from carbon atoms in many bonds to become so strong.

 

I don't know - at this moment, I feel like I am blabbering, and I'm not sure if everything that I'm saying is making sense.

[Grollourdo]

Meh.... I'm happy with hawken XD

[Kopra]

When Cavolrite (or however you spell it), was when anything could have happened. Although it is not impossible to calculate the gravity of Illal by comparing the size of the mech to find out the height at which a mech falls, then also time how long it takes to cover that distance, and you should be able to get the gravity. But then again, you would also need to know the mass of the mech as well, which would be hard.
 

You only need the height and time of the fall to determine the gravitational acceleration. Unless you take air resistance into account, mass, size and shape are irrelevant. I'm pretty sure Hawken doesn't take it into account.

Cavorite on the other hand is described as a mineral with antigravitational properties. The specifics are not revealed, only that
it lets mechs hover. (Amazing, muh scrips!)

[Nept]

[StubbornPuppet]

Since we're all going uber-nerd up in this beotch, let's just say that there is a three-part magnetic gyroscope inside the mech, at the center of gravity, spinning at an incredible rotation velocity.  It creates a field that counteracts gravity and velocity by changing orientation, thus excerting it's own gravitational pull in any direction.

 

It's the same way many great physicists have theorized that the commonly perceived UFO would be capable of the seemingly impossible properties they display... and it could work.  The incredible acceleration, the instant changes in direction, the lack of any propulsion... it's all possible with high speed magnetic rotation.  The only thing we humans (supposedly) lack in engineering it ourselves is a compact and lightweight enough energy source to create the incredible power needed to run it.  Heck, the physicists even believe that it would be possible for a human to survive the acceleration, negative acceleration and g-forces because they would be inside the magnetic field.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 28 May 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Niels]

Since we're all going uber-nerd up in this beotch, let's just say that there is a three-part magnetic gyroscope inside the mech, at the center of gravity, spinning at an incredible rotation velocity.  It creates a field that counteracts gravity and velocity by changing orientation, thus excerting it's own gravitational pull in any direction.

 

It's the same way many great physicists have theorized that the commonly perceived UFO would be capable of the seemingly impossible properties they display... and it could work.  The incredible acceleration, the instant changes in direction, the lack of any propulsion... it's all possible with high speed magnetic rotation.  The only thing we humans (supposedly) lack in engineering it ourselves is a compact and lightweight enough energy source to create the incredible power needed to run it.  Heck, the physicists even believe that it would be possible for a human to survive the acceleration, negative acceleration and g-forces because they would be inside the magnetic field.

 

Science called and wants you to stop describing the Searl Effect as science. It belongs to the perpetual machine and free energy realm, not science :p

 

Although now that I think about it, the mechs must be full of electrical motors. So they do have rotating magnetic fields.

Edited by Niels, 28 May 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[DM30]

Niels summed it up pretty nicely with his Raider graphic IMO; with the way the thrusters are oriented wrt the centre of the mech's mass, none of the maneuvers the mechs perform make the least amount of sense anyway, so any kind of physics-related discussion is pretty moot. It's a sci-fi world with sci-fi technology and mystical anti-gravity metals and energy refined from rat turds, so they can do whatever they want with it.

 

Really, the way things work is just a matter of gameplay and aesthetics. I was originally against air dodging being added to the game at all because a mech moving that suddenly and that quickly in mid-air would just look weird, and after having AC in the game for this long I still think it looks weird, but whatever. It's here, so I've accepted it and appreciate the movement options it adds.

 

The jump pad situation is the same. The mech suddenly stopping all vertical movement and instantly dashing sideways just from a couple of small thruster nozzles hanging off the back of the machine looks completely ridiculous. Gameplay-wise, the fact that normal hovering is completely restricted while AC is free to escape the jump effect at any time also doesn't make sense. They should both be able to affect the mech's direction at any time, or both be locked until the peak of the jump is reached.

 

I'm leaning toward the former myself. As weird as it looks, I like that having AC gives you more options on jump pads. It's an extra incentive to use it over something like an Orb-lord build, a health for mobility tradeoff that I think the game could use more of instead of the boring, flat stat boosts that everything else gives you. But, if some of the vertical momentum was maintained during air dodging I would definitely not complain. You could use a jump-pad plus air-dodge to maneuver yourself into some interesting positions, I expect, and would probably make things like jumping + air-dodge to vault over an enemy more effective since a little bit of your upward motion from the jump would be carried into the dodge, vaulting you farther. It adds options, which I think is a good thing. Being able to affect your flight direction with hovering while using the jump pad falls into the same category. One thing that frustrates me to no end on maps like Origin is how helpless you feel when using even the smaller jump pads while under fire. Even if the directional control from hovering was small, having at least a LITTLE input on how I'm moving would lessen that frustrating feeling a lot.

 

 

tl;dr -- Physics = invalid already because of how the thrusters are positioned, so all of this physics discussion is interesting but pointless and just derailing the thread. Conserving some vertical momentum while air-dodging is an interesting idea and I would like to see it. More movement options = good.

[StubbornPuppet]

Since we're all going uber-nerd up in this beotch, let's just say that there is a three-part magnetic gyroscope inside the mech, at the center of gravity, spinning at an incredible rotation velocity.  It creates a field that counteracts gravity and velocity by changing orientation, thus excerting it's own gravitational pull in any direction.

 

It's the same way many great physicists have theorized that the commonly perceived UFO would be capable of the seemingly impossible properties they display... and it could work.  The incredible acceleration, the instant changes in direction, the lack of any propulsion... it's all possible with high speed magnetic rotation.  The only thing we humans (supposedly) lack in engineering it ourselves is a compact and lightweight enough energy source to create the incredible power needed to run it.  Heck, the physicists even believe that it would be possible for a human to survive the acceleration, negative acceleration and g-forces because they would be inside the magnetic field.

 

 

Science called and wants you to stop describing the Searl Effect as science. It belongs to the perpetual machine and free energy realm, not science :p

 

Although now that I think about it, the mechs must be full of electrical motors. So they do have rotating magnetic fields.

 LOL, I'm not talking about the Searl Effect at all.  That's about creating free energy through perpetual motion.  I'm talking about physics attempting to postulate realistic explanations for the seemingly unrealistic movements in videos and accounts of UFOs.  That's not me saying I am a believer in UFOs and alien visitors, just that I found it fascinating how science could provide plausible explanations for the physics involved.

 

However... if the Searl Effect could be made to work... it would certainly mean that the aliens have solved the energy problem and don't even need power or fuel to keep their saucers flying.  OMG, the mystery of Hawken is alien tech!

[Niels]

 LOL, I'm not talking about the Searl Effect at all.  That's about creating free energy through perpetual motion.  I'm talking about physics attempting to postulate realistic explanations for the seemingly unrealistic movements in videos and accounts of UFOs.  That's not me saying I am a believer in UFOs and alien visitors, just that I found it fascinating how science could provide plausible explanations for the physics involved.

 

However... if the Searl Effect could be made to work... it would certainly mean that the aliens have solved the energy problem and don't even need power or fuel to keep their saucers flying.  OMG, the mystery of Hawken is alien tech!

 

As I said, no, these explanations are not realistic ones. Just because there are sciency words in it, it does not mean it is science. And the SEG is supposed to make you levitate too and uses rotating magnetic "stuff".

 

It's nonsense, no respecting scientist is working on it. Magnetic fields don't cancel gravity. At best, magnets get you magnetic levitation (or maglev). See here: http://en.wikipedia....etic_levitation

 

You want to know if something is pseudoscience crap (aka. woo-hoo), it's:

- when it stays within the web and blog community (instead of reputed scientific journals)

- when you never hear about it working except from excentrics every few months

- when the people working on it are outside the scientific community and/or outside their area of expertise

- when the benefits are gigantic (free energy + levitation) and yet, no serious laboratory seems interested

 

As Carl Sagan famously said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". All you have here are claims, and no evidence at all to back them up. If you do have evidence, I really want to know about it. Academic, peer-reviewed, reputed journal, nothing less will do. Because everything else is make-believe.

 

I like make-believe, fact is my avatar is Rygel from Farscape. I love this series, but I don't think for one second that any of it makes sense in reality.

[StubbornPuppet]

Oh brother.  A guy can't even craft a little levity (not levitation) in this discussion.  

[Epsilon_Knight]

This conversation has gotten silly.  It's a gameplay decision that has as much to do with the lore or physics as infinite TOWs and grenades.

 

For my part, I say keep it as is.

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 28 May 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Amish_Kommander]

having control of where you land using the grav lift should not be incorporated. the lift is there to get you from point A to point B, not so you can diddle your diddler and fuzzy bunny around. the lift takes you from one lvl of the terrain to the next one up. they are placed to get the Mechs up, id imagine that is legit, for getting the mechs to higher ground rather than looking for other ways. they obv dont have stairs cuz all the maps are 'battlefields' that have visuals and interactables that fit that battlefield feel, not open world/ free roam areas. the battlefields are meant for mechs in combat. so if youre not using the AC on your mech then change your playstyle a teeny tiny bit to stay away from those grav lifts when in combat. ive made that mistake many times on my tech and its not cool -____-

[Derpy Hooves]

No, explain clearly how you think it can work. The boost forward, for example.The thrust affects the top of the mech, way above the center of mass.

 

 

As you said earlier, ? = r x F. So how does the mech not pivot around the center of mass (the big green dot) and crash head first into the ground?

 

Hint: it does crash. Three possible solutions against it:

- aerodynamics, but if anything here they probably make it worse because of the large drag created by the legs

- lower the boosters to align with the center of mass, to have r = 0

- thrusters to counterbalance the torque induced by the boosters (I don't see any)

 

Now can we stop this nonsense and go back to the actual suggestion?

Part of the drag created by the legs could be keeping it upright, not to mention there's no doubt stabilizers, gyroscopic gimbals, a stability augmentation system, the list goes on. "Counterbalance boosters" or in real world applications, are really called a Reaction Control System often emit thrust generally 30~40x more than their size would theoretically allow due to the use of mono-propellant.

 

Also as per your comment of "The RCS thrusters would have to be much bigger than the boosters to compensate for it." they don't need to be as big or bigger it all depends on the propellant being used, the space shuttle weighed 165,000lbs the RCS pods were capable of 26.7Nm(Newton Metre) of thrust while the primary boosters were capable of 30.16Nm of thrust. RCS is extremely powerful but at the same time in comparison to regular engines, quite small. The space shuttle is the size of an Airbus A430 yet the OMS/RCS pods were just a mere 21.8ft x 11.37ft in size.

 

As for how they stay in the air, like I said before, stabilizers, gyroscopes, OMS/RCS pods. Obviously all sorts of things we can't see or the original artist didn't care to design.

[Flifang]

What if the cockpit is suspended in a vacuum?

[Derpy Hooves]

What if the cockpit is suspended in a vacuum?

That would affect how gyroscopic systems that are most likely present in the mech, little to none, since it's main job is keeping the pilot inside on a level field in relation and translation of the orientation of the mech.

[n3onfx]

 

 

 

 

 

Oh god thanks to you Niels I'll now have visions of mechs activating their boosts and instantly smashing head-first into the ground every time I see those fancy mech pictures.

 

I hope you're proud of yourself.

[Kopra]

 

Part of the drag created by the legs could be keeping it upright...

 

 

You can't possibly be serious.

[Derpy Hooves]

 

 

You can't possibly be serious.

if the feet are dragging on the ground yes, they would act much like a ships anchor and pull the mech backwards.

[Niels]

You've got it backwards. The aerodynamic drag on the legs will increase the torque even more. Let's keep it simple for you: the legs will be dragged backwards by the atmosphere, while the body goes forward. The only way for this to work without pulling the mech apart is for the nose to go down and slam the ground.

 

And by the way, my picture was a big simplification. I wanted to keep it stupid simple, to make the message clear, but obviously it did not work. I omitted many things which make it even worse, not the least of which is the fact that the center of gravity is way outside of the support polygon, given the position of the legs. If you're not convinced, try staying up with your entire body inclined 45� forward. Good luck.

 

Obviously it can be done with the mech, provided you place the boosters correctly. But as it is, everything in the design of the mechs will make them fall on their nose, and nothing exists to counterbalance that.

 

And you're completely wrong about the RCS thrusters. The values are wrong by orders of magnitude, the units are wrong, everything. Stop talking about stuff you obviously don't understand.

 

I'm really really tired now, so I'll go into more detail tomorrow. With a more complete schema. Although I'm starting to wonder why I bother.

 

Oh god thanks to you Niels I'll now have visions of mechs activating their boosts and instantly smashing head-first into the ground every time I see those fancy mech pictures.

 

I hope you're proud of yourself.

 

Sorry :)

Edited by Niels, 28 May 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

Faceplant.

[Grollourdo]

Lol

[Massive_Assailant_Stingray]

I think you guys are forgetting one very important thing, mechs do pooping. You see, when ever a mech is damaged, they do pooping to heal themselves. Now, the generation of pooping does not directly correlate damage sustained. In actuality mechs are constantly build up the pooping, so that it's ready to do when they are hurt.

 

Lift cancellation doesn't make sense? Simple really.

 

You simply take, pooping not done^(pooping capacity - pooping buildup speed) + the amount of gumballs you can fit in your robots glove compartment / how many style points you accumulate mid air

 

I'm sure if you follow the formula properly you'll have no trouble seeing how the robots do this maneuver. You can also take into account the pilots hairstyle and music choices as co-percolators to the formulas sub-tangent.

[PepeKenobi]

I have a bad feeling about this ...

 

no one in here might be looking for a new unfair way to reach orbital heights via exploiting such a suggestion like this (and if "rawly" implemented like so) which hopefully should improve the physics in the game?

 

Do you (any)?

[BaronSaturday]

Finally got it uploaded. Windows 10 started acting funky so I had to reinstall 7. Hopefully I can get a hold of sony vegas one more time...

Edited by BaronSaturday, 30 May 2015 - 02:08 AM.

[Hayseed]

This isn't true. You can use the spacebar to boost vertically during a jump, but only after you've reached the top point of the jump pad's projected arc.

 

This allows you to do things like, say, land on the highest ledge in the main open area in Uptown without having to go up the ramps. Or in Origin, you can make it onto the top of the AA platform from the jump pad that doesn't quite send you there.

 

I wish I had a video in my pocket to demonstrate. Maybe I'll make one later.

 

Perhaps they need to just remove the restrictions on boosting from jump pads altogether, it would make things less confusing.

Still, you are able to air dodge AS SOON AS YOU STEP IN THE GRAV LIFT AND IT CANCELS THE LIFT. You cant do that with anything else

[Grollourdo]

Well... I kinda have mixed feelings... I like how it is right now but I also like the momentum ideas...

[Hayseed]

AC was implemented to upgrade maneuverability in the air. I don't get the complaint, it's just what it does. Being a 3 slot item I don't think the AC is OP.

 

I can understand if it can be tricky to dodge immediately after getting on the launchpad to stay on the ground, but if it's short before the landing, your speed won't be that fast and it's not much different from dodging while hovering. But I'm not sure if I understand this sentence right. I just don't think it's an extreme situation that needs to be adressed because it's exploited. To me it's just part of the game and part of the AC.
I personally think it makes the AC viable, not only to dodge and trick other players, but also while you are going for the AA on origin, after delivering EU you can get to the jumppad leading towards the plateau and cancel your z-axis momentum and getting to the aa faster.
It just rewards skilled players.

The pad are placed there for a reason, and they send you and a very slow, very predictable, path for a reason. By using the pad you trade maneuverability for the ability to get to one exact position really quickly...Absolutely EVERY mech has to deal with this UNLESS you have AC. 

Now I'm not necessarily saying that the AC shouldn't be able to do this, but if the AC can then standard boosting should be able to cancel the lift effects as well.

 

It's bad enough that you can pop AC on an A-class mech with TOW and wreck everyone. Do you really think that just applying this little fix is going to hurt anybody? Do you really think that it would be so traumatic the the AC usefulness if the ability to cancel grav lifts were taken away or given to everyone?

 

Come on be sensible.

[Silverfire]

You can pop AC on a B class mech with TOW and wreck everyone

You can pop AC on a C class mech with TOW and wreck everyone

 

What's the difference?

 

I just would prefer to be able to keep movement options available as they are.

[The_Silencer]

Still, you are able to air dodge AS SOON AS YOU STEP IN THE GRAV LIFT AND IT CANCELS THE LIFT. You cant do that with anything else

Although unrealistic i don't see that to be problematic from a gameplay stand point. I can see a number of cases in which you can appretiate this actual "feature" right after stamping your foot on a jump-pad. Personally, I do not like much having map features or just features in general terms to become and act as traps. When we talk about maneuverability then the maximum freedom factor is mandatory, IMHO.

 

Now, define that what you said above and i colored in red, please.

 

Thanks.

[Hek_naw]

Infinite ammo, magical respawning and all such contradictions to realism do not contribute to reject the game's fun nor its playability nor its credibility. Because there's a process playing part in our minds called suspension of disbelief. It's all in poetic faith. I think everyone understand this.

 

That said, when I see a mech do an AC lateral boost mid-flight out of a jump-pad, I get this knee-jerk reaction. I mean, even a middle school kid would think there's something odd in that suddenly-sideways movement.

 

Can you take it in after poetic faith? Sure, yeah, but it will still remain bad poetry.

[PepeKenobi]

all the good points made into this thread one side.... many I think...  I think map jumpads should not cancel gravity lifts; it's reasonable.

[Grollourdo]

Well... Ima try out a new playstyle and put ac and jump pads toy advantage and let's see what happens? XD lol

[Grollourdo]

Oh but god just thought of this... It will take away TONS of fuel!!! ... Gonna have to find a way to kill my enemy quick when using this....