26 replies to this topic

[BaronSaturday]

I've been around the block quite a few times with mice. I bought the "gaming rated" sensor thing until yesterday. I'm only going to talk gaming mice.

First gaming mouse I ever owned was a Razer Deathadder. I suspect it had a philips PNS2303, but I doubt it. While it claimed to have the same capabilities as the TteSports Black element, it was awful. So I returned it and got the TteSports Saphira which was fine. It had a philips PNS2301 which was fine. Never had a problem. I killed the mouse wheel so I got the Black element which has a Philips PNS2303. This was just as good, but has a higher DPI.

Now to the money shot now that I think about it. I owned a Microsoft Intelimouse and it was great. Twin eye even. I just bought the Etekcity scrol x1 and it has an Avago 5050. A notoriously "not-gaming" sensor. This mouse is better than all four of the mice I named above... (I wasn't expecting much from this mouse btw so plecebo out the window.)

So what's the deal with gaming mice? Why do we swear by them when they're not actually better, and sometimes worse than regular mice? I'm never paying more than $30 for a mouse ever again.

[Nept]

https://geekhack.org...p?topic=56240.0

[BaronSaturday]

https://geekhack.org...p?topic=56240.0

I wish I had known all this 4 years ago when I replaced my Msoft mouse.

Also. The list of mice with and without acceleration should be updated. I think some mice weren't included because they have activatedable acceleration to get "higher" DPIs. I find this is the case with mice over 6500. So it's usually not true 10k DPI, but anything below has no acceleration.

Edited by BaronSaturday, 11 June 2015 - 01:43 AM.

[Nept]

From the article;

 

When it comes to the sensor being able to track well on a surface, there are differences between the two, but one is not strictly better than the other. Laser sensors track better on some surfaces (like glass) while optical sensors track better on others (typically, cloth mousepads). Where the laser sensors lose out to the optical sensors is when it comes to accuracy and reliability. While the newer laser sensors manage to avoid prediction, the popular Avago laser sensors (9500, 9800) found in many modern mice all suffer from acceleration issues. Furthermore, while these sensor have a very high malfunction speed, their maximum perfect tracking speed is actually lower than that of the typical optical sensor. Another frequently used laser sensor, the Philips twin eye sensor, uses a different method to register mouse-movement. It actually does not have any acceleration issues, but introduces a problem when lifting the mouse, commonly referred to as a z-axis problem. The cursor moves when the mouse is lifted, which creates a problem for people who lift the mouse frequently with the intention of having the sensor stop its tracking.

One thing that is worth pointing out is that even when mice use the same sensor, that does not mean they have identical tracking characteristics. Different manufacturers implement sensors in a different way. Take the Avago 3090 sensor for example. Due to the specific implementation of it, we see it in mice that have some of the lowest lift of distances, and in mice that have some of the highest lift of distances on the market. Additionally, we see that the max perfect tracking speed differs across mice using this same sensor.

 

The maximum perfect tracking speed might be a concern, regardless of DPI.  ATM I use a Logitech G9, as it's almost the ideal fingertip grip mouse.  If it ever goes tits up, I've a friend with a G9 on hold for me.  And if that goes tits up, the only mice I'd consider purchasing are that 8 dollar Sharkk mouse and the Roccat Savu.  As you mentioned in your OP, gaming mice have been poorly built the past few years.  Companies seem most concerned with inflating DPI and max accel values - which is ridiculous because a) no top-tier gamers run much past 1k DPI (there's absolutely no need) and b) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A HUMAN TO GENERATE 40G's OF ACCELERATION WITH THEIR GODDAMN ARM.

 

I guess it's not much different from whaling rich idiots with 0-60 times on cars that they'll only drive in cramped cities.  At least you could conceivably make use of those things on the track, though.

Edited by Nept, 11 June 2015 - 02:26 AM.

[CraftyDus]

I run my games with super low sensitivity and inch to 360 on the larger side since I picked up CSGO .
So I'm picking up the mouse off the pad a lot (even with a 3 foot pad).
This is the exact situation some say is the bane of the twin eye.
They say that it causes the crosshair to rise and change positions and messes you up.
In my experience this either doesn't happen to the degree I've heard, or it is not nearly critical an issue they'd like us to believe.
I've not experienced that problem at all.

[BaronSaturday]

From the article;


The maximum perfect tracking speed might be a concern, regardless of DPI. ATM I use a Logitech G9, as it's almost the ideal fingertip grip mouse. If it ever goes tits up, I've a friend with a G9 on hold for me. And if that goes tits up, the only mice I'd consider purchasing are that 8 dollar Sharkk mouse and the Roccat Savu. As you mentioned in your OP, gaming mice have been poorly built the past few years. Companies seem most concerned with inflating DPI and max accel values - which is ridiculous because a) no top-tier gamers run much past 1k DPI (there's absolutely no need) and b) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A HUMAN TO GENERATE 40G's OF ACCELERATION WITH THEIR GODDAMN ARM.

I guess it's not much different from whaling rich idiots with 0-60 times on cars that they'll only drive in cramped cities. At least you could conceivably make use of those things on the track, though.

I see I see. But why is this mouse with an Avago sensor at such a low price point better than all 3 of the mice I had with top of the Line philips PNS sensors? Is it marketing? Why did I pay so much for a 3 mice that are worse than an MS office mouse? Why we do dis? Does it boil down to implimentation? Would this mouse be that much better than those other mice simply because it impliments it's sensors better? I jist feel really cheated. Especially in light of this thermalthief fiasco... Not only did I support a company that decided to steal. I bought a product that should be terrible when compared, but is, in fact, better.

Edit: It's even built better save for the profile switches, but I don't use those.

Edited by BaronSaturday, 11 June 2015 - 02:49 AM.

[CraftyDus]

For sure it's marketing. "Gaming" is a marketing buzzword for the peripheral marketplace.
I get that vibe most nakedly with headphones from the gaming companies.

[Nept]

Honestly, most people don't even notice the difference.  Unless you're a top-tier player, or are particularly perceptive, a bit of angle snapping or acceleration isn't going to register.  Probably didn't register to the designers, either.  That or they figured that raising useless numbers was their better bet.  Can't say they figured wrong, sales-wise.

 

Seeing Crafty browsing the thread reminds me, though.  There's one positive gaming mouse development: more buttons.

Edited by Nept, 11 June 2015 - 02:56 AM.

[Nept]

Hah, one quick example of people not noticing screwy mouse values.  Hawken, like most Unreal 3 engine games, has different scaling for the X- and Y-axes.  You need to remove it through your input.ini.

[BaronSaturday]

Hah, one quick example of people not noticing screwy mouse values. Hawken, like most Unreal 3 engine games, has different scaling for the X- and Y-axes. You need to remove it through your input.ini.

It also has some funky acceleration that I haven't seen since... Well... I can't recall game ever having it. I think I notice it because of my shaky hands, but it's like it's skipping polls or even "dots" if that makes sense. The higher I set the sensitivity the more noticable it becomes. Particularly on my bad days. I think it's something to do with turn cap.

@Crafty. Gaming headsets are not good. Well they're good, but not $75+ good. I want to get senheizer cans and a mod mic. I don't need studio cans, but I'm tired of losing so much bass as volume rises. I'm a bassist after all. >.>

[CraftyDus]

With you there.
Headphones from audio companies.
Although the pro gaming kids are sporting headsets with lights and stuff all over em, looking pretty cool.
But sound quality and comfort 1st.

I too slappa da bass.

[BaronSaturday]

With you there.
Headphones from audio companies.
Although the pro gaming kids are sporting headsets with lights and stuff all over em, looking pretty cool.
But sound quality and comfort 1st.

I too slappa da bass.

Bass off? Did you say bass off?

No I'm JK. Only have my acoustic anymore. Real poppy on the highs and really bumpy on the lows. It's an Aria 4 string standard scale.

[Kopra]

"Gaming" anything is indeed just a marketing buzzword. The difference is often in a "gamer"-ier case and blinking led lights. It turns a bigger profit from a piece of plastic and cheap electronics.

[Zuurkern]

I have a Logitech M100 that I opened up and glued a certain amount of washers into for a comfortable weight (it's a really light mouse). I also removed the little spring on the scrollwheel so it's silent and smooth. Super cheap and it works better for me than some of the more expensive mice I owned. The only thing lacking is some extra buttons.

 

Also the DPI race is simply ridiculous.

Edited by Zuurkern, 11 June 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[Volgraza]

found one for 13. bucks this is really cool. thank you very much!

[Invader_guy]

do I need to post my awesome car mouse again?

[BaronSaturday]

So I just figured out why this mouse is so good. It's good for all the same reasons I was going to buy a zowie. And zowies are good.

Zowie uses avago sensors and huano switches. The Scroll x1 uses omrons. Omrons tend to actuate and release faster where the feed back on a huano is more deliberate. This is a preference thing and I do like omrons. The Scroll x1 uses a pretty high end avago. I don't know where all the hate fot avagos comes from when it's all zowie uses and they have no acceleration. So the scroll x1 is basically a zowie.

We can all thank ThermalThief for this enlightening thread and Nept for posting that enlightening thread.

Edited by BaronSaturday, 12 June 2015 - 12:24 AM.

[Buster X]

RATATATATAATATATA!!!!!!

[Hyginos]

 

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A HUMAN TO GENERATE 40G's OF ACCELERATION WITH THEIR GODDAMN ARM.

 

 

This statement confuses me for a number of reasons.

 

Foremost is that I have never seen a mouse advertised by its ability to track high accelerations. Second is that acceleration tracking seems like a useless metric for a mouse, as it follows directly from its ability to track at any given velocity.

 

Also I'm pretty sure you can hit 40Gs by smacking your hand on the desk really hard.

[TrueMA]

I would highly recommend the Logitech G502 "Proteus Core" gaming mouse. It's priced at around 80 bucks and comes with weight adjustment, a 2400 DPI stock setting, and ranges from 1200 to 6400 DPI. I've used this for about 5 months now and it hasn't broke, it never slips, and is just an all - round great mouse in my opinion... I just love it!

Edited by TrueMA, 07 July 2016 - 05:21 AM.

[The_Silencer]

i've a razer deathadder with the scroll wheel fully screwed up... do you know how to open it and hopefully fix it?

 

There's time to completely break it after all.. so go ahead, guys... .)

 

edit: Ok... now it's really death (adder) and broken at all... no.. I'm just kidding... Any solid/friendly howto about it?

Right now, I get the 3 side and middle directional clicks in the wheel. The wheel seems to be working more or less, but it looks like pretty displaced to the left.. time to open it and see methinks ... .)

Edited by The_Silencer, 02 July 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[Nov8tr]

I'm happy with my Drakonia Sharkoon Black. I adjusted the weights to where I like it over several months. Same with the settings. I do not use much acceleration at all. I don't use any but the 3 buttons either. Just not convienent for me. I got a fair price for it on sale at Frys so I'm plenty happy. Same with my gaming headset. the bass on it is ungodly. And I've had electrostatic $350 headphones before. I use the Creative - Sound Blaster Tactic3D Alpha headset/mic. I paid less than $50 for em with tax. So not bad.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

i realy enjoy my diablo 3 steel series mouse, to be honest after all the usb peripherals i use/used i hate em all btw, nothing asside from the high dollar gaming peripherals ever satisfied me except for my old dell keyboard and mouse, from my first computer that supported mice and they have given me no problems but the ball occasionaly needing a cleaning, or keyboard keys over a decade or so finaly start sticking/grinding as they go up down but the mini ps/2 has never failed to send rapid input many keys pressing no latency/glitches that my microsoft wireless kb has plagued me with, it is simple cheap and works faster and cleaner than usb, in the end usb polls for input, and ps/2 in contrast sends interrupt signals, this means less stress on the pc, greater responsiveness, this is how it should be, think of a monitor refresh rate and how your game may not keep up causing screen tearing/frame drop etc, they finaly have "g-sync" etc technology comming out in monitors that does the opposite it constantly refreshes as often as it recieves input this is how it should be.    "gaming" devices cost more for a few things other than scammery, they often have  tougher internals rated for far more abuse, have a wide array of driver customisation and actualy installs itself as multiple usb devices to overcome the usb channel limiting to achieve better key rollover.

[Nov8tr]

Yeah the new g-snyc stuff is looking pretty good. They are pretty pricey right now. But that will more than likey come down as they make more of them and as more companies start making them too. Yeah the old PS2 stuff did indeed respond faster. I hated taking the ball out, cleaning it, then cleaning the wheels inside. LOL

[( XD ) wimpyhugz]

I've used Cyborg RAT 7, Razer Ouroboros, Mionix Naos 8200, Logitech G700s, and Logitech G502. The RAT's sensor died but it wasn't too bad, the customisable body was nice. The Ouroboros developed a squeaky left click (mouse... squeak, LOL) so returned it as I didn't like the Synapse software anyway. The Naos' scrollwheel died. Still have both Logitechs in working condition.

I find myself using around 1000-1500DPI so I agree about the DPI race, it's pointless. For sensors, I don't really care. I'm not fussy enough to notice slight acceleration or slight jumping when I pick up and put down my mice. I tend to focus more on comfort and functionality.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

the sensor isnt gonna die through regular use but the infrared LED that shineson it may, solder a new one in

[P3nnyw1se]

I've used a standard mouse on my brother's computer and it doesn't really cut to for me anymore.  I sit around 2K DPI on my Lachesis but I did play a lot of MW back in the day.  After learning to quick scope and just doing that while moving from target to target you get used to having more DPI.  Honestly though the only reason I picked up my Lachesis was because of the assignable buttons.  I hate moving  my pinky over to go prone or crouch and having to hold it down while sprinting was a contributing factor also.  It's a good mouse for what it's worth.  All things aside, assignable buttons make things a lot easier.