59 replies to this topic

[Panzermanathod]

Wait wait wait.... hold up here a moment. I DON'T CARE what your experience says about the best case scenario playing burst mechs. An alpha is the best case in any situation.

I was referring to how he said EOC would be "better" with altered delay, not about alpha striking.

 

 

I get that the mechs all have roles that make them weaker than others in certain situations but we really should not focus on the individual mechs themselves but on the two playstyles that divide all the mechs in the game regardless of the other small niches they fit into and that's burst and sustain.

 

No, individual mechs must be considered as well. You can't ignore the potential roles mechs have and just concentrate on burst vs sustain.

[n3onfx]

 

I was referring to how he said EOC would be "better" with altered delay, not about alpha striking.

 

Sure you'll shoot out a boost faster. So will everyone else.
 
My experiences say otherwise.

 

Again, delay removal will effect everyone, not just burst
 
and so on

 

 

If you fail to see why firing straight out of a boost makes you do damage faster, and that given how burst fights against sustain it would benefit burst more, then I don't see any point in continuing writing walls of text for nothing.

 

It's one thing to say that you don't think it's a good solution, a good mechanic or a good fix, but can you at least see how it would benefit burst more? Seems evident enough. I hate bringing up the "experience" card but since you mentioned it yourself and said on another thread you played this game for "a few months", maybe if something is said by several high-ish to high level players that have played this game for years than it's worth at least considering it as having some truth to it and testing it for yourself more in depth. I say this to encourage you to watch some good streamers or TPG rounds on Youtube to see for yourself, not to belittle your argument or say I know more than you because I have more epeen points.

 

Again, for the umpteenth time, all I'm saying is that shooting out of boost would benefit burst more. Not that it's the only valid solution or the ultimate fix, I'm not pushing a "no-delay agenda" like you said.

 

Any discussion on this is good and everybody's opinion is worth the same but talking in circles about the same thing is tiring.

Edited by neon, 27 July 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

 

 

If you fail to see why firing straight out of a boost makes you do damage faster, and that given how burst fights against sustain it would benefit burst more, then I don't see any point in continuing writing walls of text for nothing.

 

(((No, I do see it. I've saw this argument many times. But it doesn't matter. As I've said, altering the delay effects everyone. And relatively speaking, it doesn't help Burst all that much. It's like if every mech had 200 HP added to them. Sure, it might help A-classes a bit more, allowing more leeway while dodging attacks... but every still has 200 more HP, so everyone gets the benefit.)))

 

maybe if something is said by several high-ish to high level players that have played this game for years than it's worth at least considering it as having some truth to it and testing it for yourself more in depth.

 

(((Trust me, I've seen the point of view from players who've been around for far longer than I've been, at least for delay alteration. And this is what this thread is made for, delay alteration. You can say it's to help burst all you want, but you're talking about altering a mechanic that *everyone* has. Sustained will be effected too and, barring G2R, all mechs have varying competencies in burst attacking.

 

And then everyone will be super. And once that happens, no one will be. )))

 

[crockrocket]

*snip*

Think of it this way: it takes a burst mech, scout say, a split second to get in a flak-tow combo. Boost -> shoot -> dodge away, all in an exceedingly short amount of time, assuming no delay. Now say we have a beserker perform the same maneuver. Instead of a full flak - tow combo, they only land a tow and some change in the form of a few sustain rounds.

I get what you're saying as far as no delay affecting everyone, but it will benefit burst SIGNIFICANTLY more. It just takes so much less time for burst to get a chunk of damage in.

[Panzermanathod]

I understand how no delay would benefit burst more. I wouldn't call it particularly significant, though. It's not like your example can't be done now, and while a lot can ride on a half second of firing or not firing, burst, or at least shotgun types, already have a damage advantage if they get in close. If the sustain using mech allows that. They may just take the altered delay to their advantage as well.

 

And I'm trying to think of how the lack of delay would give many significant improvements (although I won't deny burst will be buffed in certain CQC situations).  Ambushes? Boosting will put you on radar, and boosting to get in an Alpha Strike is already risky. Corner play? I honestly can't see it helping it at all since you can only boost forward. Sure it would aid in simply getting in on sustained users but at that point it's better to use cover anyway.

 

Plus whatever buff burst get, as said before, is somewhat mitigated by whatever boost sustain get. I agree that burst should be improved, and that delay alteration would improve it. I just don't think that the improvement of burst weapons by altering delay is a good idea.

[n3onfx]

 

And I'm trying to think of how the lack of delay would give many significant improvements (although I won't deny burst will be buffed in certain CQC situations).  Ambushes? Boosting will put you on radar, and boosting to get in an Alpha Strike is already risky. Corner play? I honestly can't see it helping it at all since you can only boost forward. Sure it would aid in simply getting in on sustained users but at that point it's better to use cover anyway.

 

You know you're actually making a really good argument for no delay being a good fix for burst/sustain right here? It won't alter ambushes and corner play in which the balance between sustain and burst is fine, the only difference will be that it buffs burst in the open where most of the complaints of burst vs sustain come from.

[Flifang]

Sustain is mostly instantaneous top-notch dps that is ridiculously easy to use. A dead center aimed smc won't miss almost any shots if a target moves a few steps to the side. A flak cannon however, will lose half its damage or more unless you're having an intimate staring contest with your target. Smart sustain players won't utilize the delay reduction unless they're just then initiating combat with their secondary. A second of lost dps on sustain is huge. Burst mechs often can't even utilize their weapon's dps potential because of how risky missing a shot can be. Their aim gets harder because they have to outmaneuver a sustain's damage to be able to survive because they won't win a dps race ever.

[Panzermanathod]

You know you're actually making a really good argument for no delay being a good fix for burst/sustain right here? It won't alter ambushes and corner play in which the balance between sustain and burst is fine, the only difference will be that it buffs burst in the open where most of the complaints of burst vs sustain come from.

 

Not "in the open". "In the open" covers a lot of ground, unlike the effective Burst range, HOIYOOOO!!!!!

 

I don't mind making a case for delay removal, but I don't actually agree with it being actually removed or altered. I personally say change the burst weapons themselves.

 

 

Sustain is mostly instantaneous top-notch dps that is ridiculously easy to use.

 

Easy to use, yes. Top notch DPS, no.

[Flifang]

No I'm pretty certain Assault rifle, SMC, and vulcan are topping the boards on dps as far as singular weapons go. If you didn't know this I can understand why you don't think our suggestions will make much of an impact. It may not seem like it in most pubs but when you're facing an opponent who can track very well you fuzzy bunnyng feel that dps in your soul. Dave does it better than anyone I have come across and he really is a good example of just how fast an assault can melt you if they can aim extremely well.

[Panzermanathod]

But what about damage falloff?

[HHJFTRU]

But what about damage falloff?

I can see that you have no Brawler or Scout in your garage, so I assume that you are not very familiar with the flak cannon.

But think about T-32 on the Raider or on G2R. Aside from the damage falloff, stand in front of a wall and shoot. See that random and loose spread? If you are more than a few meters away from the enemy (especially A-class) , it's sure that you can't make all of your pellets hit.

Heat has slow projectile speed, unless it's charged. Which again takes time. I don't know if there is anyone who is effective with the EOC when playing with people with comparable skill. (EOC guides and videos, please!!!)  Breacher is fine. Except that it's terribly loud for a stealth mech.

Edited by HHJFTRU, 28 July 2015 - 03:59 AM.

[Meraple]

But what about damage falloff?

The two currently most dominant sustain mechs, AR Salt and Hawkins Brawler, have plenty of range.

Most of the fighting occurs in their optimal distance, so they usually don't need to worry about it.

 

I honestly think sustain isn't as "easy" as people make it out to be when fighting good opponents.

You've to neutralize their cover as much as possible, and make sure to not let the enemy abuse your turn-cap up close.

If it turns into dancing around eachother at point-blank with very little time to actually aim I think burst has the advantage.

Sustain's easy in most pubs because most people aren't that good at the game.

[Panzermanathod]

-snip-

I was referring to sustained. Besides, I have other mechs with shotgun type weapons anyway.

 

 

The two currently most dominant sustain mechs, AR Salt and Hawkins Brawler, have plenty of range.

Most of the fighting occurs in their optimal distance, so they usually don't need to worry about it.

 

My point was to Fifang that while sustained tends to have a better optimal range, for a lot of sustained fire there's a good amount of falloff. And, besides, AR and Hawkins were the more long ranged sustained fire, right?

 

In any case, what's under "DPS", if it isn't completely wrong, is still a figure under optimal conditions. I don't know the figures by heart, but if even sustained has better range, it is at long range that falloff tends to happen for most of them.

 

In any case, man I wish the shotgun types had better range. Especially T-32. Faceraeping isn't my style of gameplay and that's the optimal range of the uncharged shots.

[n3onfx]

It's the same for charged T32, charging doesn't extend the range. Charged it does 15 maximum damage after the end of the falloff range which is actually not that far when you couple it with the random spread on the weapon.

If you don't want to stand in their face you'll want the reflak or if you're a masochist/really good with it the eoc.

Edited by neon, 28 July 2015 - 06:18 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

It was partially the range and partially the obscene spread T32 has.

 

Also, I'm more an EOC guy. I use EOC Pred and EOC Rocketeer.

[JackVandal]

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas how tightening the spread on some of the burst weapons(looks at T34) would help buff burst against sustain? would that be to much? or not enough to help with the issues of optimal range and dps?

 

On a different approach, almost all of the talk about burst vs sustain revolves around the fact that most of the fighting takes place at ranges outside burst optimal range, i wonder if its not burst that's under powered but the maps that are more open, as in what fool challenges a flack brawler in the wreckage narrows with a G2 assault? or have i missed that its easier to change the weapons than add/change maps?

[Panzermanathod]

 I've been saying that burst weapons should be altered. That's part of what bugged me about the OP's initial statement. He says its to balance sustain in the title, but this is a lie as it's to balance burst. But he's not balancing burst, he just wants the delay altered so burst will get some "significant" benefit.

 

Additional maps would be fine. This isn't a matter of balance or anything, we just want additional maps. I personally think that whatever burst weapon changes happen, I think it should be on a case by case basis.

[bacon_avenger]

I've been saying that burst weapons should be altered. That's part of what bugged me about the OP's initial statement. He says its to balance sustain in the title, but this is a lie as it's to balance burst. But he's not balancing burst, he just wants the delay altered so burst will get some "significant" benefit.

*cough*

...
Sorry, but I disagree and this entire thread, to me anyway, kind of feels like an attempt to disguise the 'reduce/remove the delay' push in a 'game balance' discussion.  I highly doubt that I'm ever going to agree that the delay needs to be reduced or removed from where it is now.

'Fix' burst? Lets start with removing the RNG on the pellet patterns for the weapons, something that was suggested way back during the closed betas, if not alpha.

[HHJFTRU]

The two currently most dominant sustain mechs, AR Salt and Hawkins Brawler, have plenty of range.

Most of the fighting occurs in their optimal distance, so they usually don't need to worry about it.

 

I honestly think sustain isn't as "easy" as people make it out to be when fighting good opponents.

You've to neutralize their cover as much as possible, and make sure to not let the enemy abuse your turn-cap up close.

If it turns into dancing around eachother at point-blank with very little time to actually aim I think burst has the advantage.

Sustain's easy in most pubs because most people aren't that good at the game.

 

That's an interesting point. Unfortunately, I can't argue with it, because I'm only 1700 MMR which is mediocre at best. I can only say that there is a quite big skill gap between sustain and burst. I'm practicing with T-32 and EOC Raiders and it's like I was 1400 MMR. It works somewhat on certaiin maps (Wreckage, Uptown, maybe Origin and Frontlne) but most of the time, for me it's Hard Mode vs Easy Mode compared to sustain.

 

 

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas how tightening the spread on some of the burst weapons(looks at T34) would help buff burst against sustain? would that be to much? or not enough to help with the issues of optimal range and dps?

 

Yes, please tighten the spread on T-32 and XT and make it less random.

[Sylhiri]

On a different approach, almost all of the talk about burst vs sustain revolves around the fact that most of the fighting takes place at ranges outside burst optimal range, i wonder if its not burst that's under powered but the maps that are more open, as in what fool challenges a flack brawler in the wreckage narrows with a G2 assault? or have i missed that its easier to change the weapons than add/change maps?

 

It's way easier (and cheaper) to adjust weapon stats then to change maps but I'm of the opinion that maps are more or less the cause of the imbalance. Game needs a lot more unscalable cover but then again that would cause problems for ranged weapons.