59 replies to this topic

[PoopSlinger]

If the weapon raise delay was removed or greatly reduced burst would stand a bit more of a fight against our Evil Sustain Overlords (Great name for a 3v3 team).  It could possibly get rid of the need for balancing SMC, AR and Vulcan.

 

Would it work or not?  (Exeon, we already know your opinion.)

[Merl61]

If the weapon raise delay was removed or greatly reduced burst would stand a bit more of a fight against our Evil Sustain Overlords (Great name for a 3v3 team). It could possibly get rid of the need for balancing SMC, AR and Vulcan.

Would it work or not? (Exeon, we already know your opinion.)

The delay isn't even a big deal. I hardly notice it. All you have to do is play around it and you're just fine

[Elite_is_salty]

Sustain weapons need a 15% dmg reduction. All of em.

[Hyginos]

The delay isn't even a big deal. I hardly notice it. All you have to do is play around it and you're just fine

 

Did you play at all when there was no delay delay cancel?

 

I for one would like to see sustain nerfed/burst buffed indirectly rather than directly. Reducing the delay might help.

 

 

Sustain weapons need a 15% dmg reduction. All of em.

 

Needs qualification. Do you only mean hitscan bullet hose guns (smc,ar,vulc,rpr etc) or are you including 'burstain' like T32 and HEAT? 

Edited by Hyginos, 24 July 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[JackVandal]

im relatively indifferent to the balance between sustain and burst, mostly because im not talented enough to notice the difference most of the time, but i feel sustain is more friendly to those with bad connections, and if its a bit stronger than burst it helps those who cant corner play well, and i feel these are good things to consider.

[Flifang]

I think the problem lies in the fact sustain has a far easier time approaching an engagement and is far more offensively capable with most situations that require a retreat. They have range, accuracy, and immediate dps with very little heat detriment say they miss a second worth of assault rifle shots. They're able to control more engagements that way. I agree that we need an indirect balance tweak and the only thing I can really see working is a movement or mobility tweak and maybe even a ttk increase.

[?FTD? eXeon]

If the weapon raise delay was removed or greatly reduced burst would stand a bit more of a fight against our Evil Sustain Overlords (Great name for a 3v3 team).  It could possibly get rid of the need for balancing SMC, AR and Vulcan.

 

Would it work or not?  (Exeon, we already know your opinion.)

FTD(Fix The Delay ;D)!

 

But seriously, is it possible to even test this Tiggs?

Edited by ?FTD? eXeon, 24 July 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

The delay isn't broken. It doesn't need to be fixed.

 

Also this isn't a "sustain balance fix". This is a "burst balance fix". The point of your topic is, in the end, to get rid of the need to balance the SMCARVulcan by altering delay to buff burst. You don't fix a bike by repairing the roads so cars don't get damaged due to potholes.

[Aregon]

Sustain weapons need a 15% dmg reduction. All of em.

I am not sure but  Ithink 15% is too high, better of with like around 2~% at first and the continue if it doesnt work.

[Elite_is_salty]

I am not sure but  Ithink 15% is too high, better of with like around 2~% at first and the continue if it doesnt work.

 

2% is nothing. TBH, in the end, a total reduction of 15% is perfect. 10% is not enough, 20% is way too much. Doing it on phases helps.

[Aregon]

2% is nothing. TBH, in the end, a total reduction of 15% is perfect. 10% is not enough, 20% is way too much. Doing it on phases helps.

Maybe, but I think that you must go a lot more specific on each and every gun to try and find the percentage fitting best, as we must count in what mechs use said weapons, the abilities of these mechs, etcetc, which is why I think 15% is not correct.

[Shoutaxeror]

2% is nothing. TBH, in the end, a total reduction of 15% is perfect. 10% is not enough, 20% is way too much. Doing it on phases helps.

I like the way your throwing percentages, without explaining anything. This is complete fuzzy bunny and doesn't serve your point of view.

[n3onfx]

I like the way your throwing percentages, without explaining anything. This is complete fuzzy bunny and doesn't serve your point of view.

 

But his point of view is 36.3% correct!

[CrimsonKaim]

Sustain weapons need a 15% dmg reduction. All of em.

 

Or weapon blur back. Atleast while in air. (Damn AC-Reapers) So finally flying (and so getting the height advantage) would have a tradeoff.

[Elite_is_salty]

I like the way your throwing percentages, without explaining anything. This is complete fuzzy bunny and doesn't serve your point of view.

 

I've wrote walls of text about the matter before. I don't have to redo it.

You're complete fuzzy bunny and no one gives a fuzzy bunny about what you think about my point of view. No one gives a fuzzy bunny about anything being said here anyways. Not like devs are gonna listen to what I fuzzy bunnyng say.

[Panzermanathod]

I've wrote walls of text about the matter before. I don't have to redo it.

 

 

A brief overview with the mention of you doing it already would have probably gotten you a kinder response.

[PoopSlinger]

The delay isn't broken. It doesn't need to be fixed.

 

Also this isn't a "sustain balance fix". This is a "burst balance fix". The point of your topic is, in the end, to get rid of the need to balance the SMCARVulcan by altering delay to buff burst. You don't fix a bike by repairing the roads so cars don't get damaged due to potholes.

Dude, it would help.  So far nobody has offered any thing that resembles a good argument either way.  Hyginos, do a video with science.

[Panzermanathod]

This isn't the first time delay has been brought up here, and I personally think the delay is fine as is. It works for the game and was built for the game.

 

Also I was mostly getting to how misleading the title to your thread is. You wish to balance sustained by altering delay (which is something else) so that burst fire (also something else) can be more viable against sustained. And that doing this would mean that you don't need to balance sustained, or at least SMCARVulcan.

[bacon_avenger]

Agree with others, the delay has nothing to do with balancing sustain vs burst.  Both weapon types have it happen after boosting.

[MomOw]

I'm having trouble with the "hold and release" primaries, but other burst weapons such as reflak, miniflak and flak are decent weapons, I don't feel them being outshined by sustained that much.

 

slight heat per seconds increase and lowering SMC efficiency at range (see threads about falloff damages), and you'll get the job done.

 

The balance have to be done to avoid cheese on competitive games, but nerfing sustained would lead to even more stupid roflstomp on lower servers (a good brawler or scout taking out the whole ennemy team with even more ease)

[n3onfx]

Agree with others, the delay has nothing to do with balancing sustain vs burst. Both weapon types have it happen after boosting.

Actually I think it does play a big role. With burst mechs you have to dance to be able to beat a sustain mech, since in a straight dps race you will lose. Which is fine, different mechs different roles and ways to play. Several burst mechs require you to get close to deal good damage as well, and you have to approach while evading secondaries against sustain mechs.

Typically in mechs like scout, raider and infil you'll have to get close-ish and start to dance while unloading bursts between your dodges/boosts. Of course sustain mechs don't want to stand still either and a shorter/no delay benefits them as well but burst mechs would benefit more from a shorter delay.

Burst mechs have cooldowns between their primary shots, any time not spent evading damage during the cool down is wasted time taking less damage. On the other side, for sustain mechs any time not spent shooting primaries is wasted time not dealing damage. I think it's pretty clear why a shorter/no delay stands to benefit burst mechs more often.

Edited by neon, 26 July 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

Burst mechs have cooldowns between their primary shots, any time not spent evading damage during the cool down is wasted time taking less damage. On the other side, for sustain mechs any time not spent shooting primaries is wasted time not dealing damage. I think it's pretty clear why a shorter/no delay stands to benefit burst mechs more often.

So you are basically saying sustained firing doesn't need to dodge as often because -the damage-.

 

But, really, burst *generally* has a decent rate of fire already. Burst, or at least the shotgun types could stand for a bit of a rework. But not from altering delay.

[n3onfx]

So you are basically saying sustained firing doesn't need to dodge as often because -the damage-.
 
But, really, burst *generally* has a decent rate of fire already. Burst, or at least the shotgun types could stand for a bit of a rework. But not from altering delay.

I realize I didn't explain myself clearly, I'm talking specifically about the boost-dodge-boost mechanic and firing in between, not the dodge itself. Sustain wants to dodge of course, they want to avoid boosting in fights though. You're better off walking backwards to keep distance in an assault than boosting because you get to keep firing your 0-cool down weapon. In burst you want to boost-dodge to throw the aim off and get close to break the turncap rate. All of this is done so that sustain mechs don't get to maximize their damage.

[Panzermanathod]

Then this is really an issue with effective ranges. Sustained tends to have better effective ranges while Burst is better close up. If delay is removed how is that really much better for a Burst user to get in and do damage? Either the Burst user charges through the bullets, or dodges it. But whether or not the delay is there, if the Burst user is still too far, damage is already minimized.

 

Due to the mechanics of the game I don't see how altering the delay would be the best way to make Burst better.

[n3onfx]

Because, as I explained twice now, it allows to do damage immediately out of a boost and resume evading damage from the other mech.

Do damage faster + take less damage = more dead stuff that's not you

[Sylhiri]

Because, as I explained twice now, it allows to do damage immediately out of a boost and resume evading damage from the other mech.
Do damage faster + take less damage = more dead stuff that's not you

That might be beneficial for shotgun type weapons but it's not a cure all for burst in general. Fixing the balance between the two types of weapons is going to be a bit more complicated. I can't remember a time where they were balanced with each other.

[Panzermanathod]

You explained your views, yes, but not why it's the best way to buff burst. Again, I don't think it's the best thing to change a mechanic across the board to buff one type of weapon. By altering the delay you're altering a game mechanic that isn''t directly tied to Burst fire. You want to buff something by changing something other than the thing you want buffed.

[n3onfx]

I explained why it would benefit burst more than sustain, never did say that it's the best or only fix. The point was to explain why it would benefit burst.

I don't think it applies to shotgun-only burst, heat and eoc would benefit as well. Honestly don't know what's the best between touching the delay, straight up buffing some burst weapon stats or a slight nerf to sustain.

[crockrocket]

Sustain weapons need a 15% dmg reduction. All of em.

Too steep for sure. 

[Panzermanathod]

I don't think it applies to shotgun-only burst, heat and eoc would benefit as well. Honestly don't know what's the best between touching the delay, straight up buffing some burst weapon stats or a slight nerf to sustain.

 

How would it benefit heat and EOC? You can't charge while boosting anyway and EOC isn't exactly a good weapon for direct combat.

 

The best way to balance things is to balance things. Doing sweeping changes across the board is not a good way to balance things. Especially in a game like this where multiple weapons are on multiple mechs.

 

As was said, it's going to be complicated. Altering a game mechanic effecting everyone is not the way to go about this.

[Sylhiri]

I explained why it would benefit burst more than sustain, never did say that it's the best or only fix. The point was to explain why it would benefit burst.
I don't think it applies to shotgun-only burst, heat and eoc would benefit as well. Honestly don't know what's the best between touching the delay, straight up buffing some burst weapon stats or a slight nerf to sustain.

EOC has horrible DPS and it's main burst power comes from being charged, the delay would barely do anything noticeable.

[n3onfx]

How would it benefit heat and EOC? You can't charge while boosting anyway and EOC isn't exactly a good weapon for direct combat.

 

The best way to balance things is to balance things. Doing sweeping changes across the board is not a good way to balance things. Especially in a game like this where multiple weapons are on multiple mechs.

 

As was said, it's going to be complicated. Altering a game mechanic effecting everyone is not the way to go about this.

 

It would benefit Heat a lot, you want to start engagements with a charged shot and you want to use corners to poke them with charged shots as well. However, if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get to cover you're going to need to land those uncharged shots because you'll never have the time to stop and charge your Heat.

 

Learning how to switch between shooting charged and uncharged depending on the situation and landing those hits is a big part of playing Heat A classes effectively, fight someone in a Heat infil as well and if he knows how to use the uncharged Heat while you try to charge it all the time up close, you'll lose. Some people are good at landing uncharged and they will fuzzy bunny you up.

 

The DPS difference is doubled between uncharged and charged. In that case, I think that a reduced delay for shooting your heat speaks for itself on how effective it would be.

 

EOC has horrible DPS and it's main burst power comes from being charged, the delay would barely do anything noticeable.

 

Well yeah, EOC is in desperate need of at least a projectile speed increase or faster loading for the 6 pucks. I play quite a bit of eoc infil and being able to shoot directly out of a boost would be a godsend though, how many times do you need just a bit more damage to finish someone who's already shooting back? Perfect scenario is alphaing people by surprise and corner-play, but you don't always find yourself in a perfect scenario. People that know how to land eoc would benefit from it. T32 is another weapon that's much better charged, but keep in mind if the delayed is reduced you can also start charging said weapons faster.

 

I think sustain is a tad too strong compared to burst right now. Again, I'm not saying it's the perfect fix and I'm not even saying it's necessary, just pointing out that it's obvious burst mechs would drool all over being able to shot directly from a boost. I know I would.

Edited by neon, 26 July 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[DerMax]

PoopSlinger gets it.

[Sylhiri]

Well yeah, EOC is in desperate need of at least a projectile speed increase or faster loading for the 6 pucks. I play quite a bit of eoc infil and being able to shoot directly out of a boost would be a godsend though, how many times do you need just a bit more damage to finish someone who's already shooting back?

 

If they can shoot back.

 

 

In my opinion the current lack of cover and the amount of LoS is what gives sustain the edge. Burst needs ways to negate or deal with incoming damage to allow them to compete in the DPS race, not to mention that most mechs with sustain weapons have both a sustain and burst option attached to it due to their secondary weapons. Flak Cannon and potentially Heat Cannon still do well because they are pretty close to the sustain side of weaponary.

[deidarall]

If they can shoot back.

 

 

In my opinion the current lack of cover and the amount of LoS is what gives sustain the edge. Burst needs ways to negate or deal with incoming damage to allow them to compete in the DPS race, not to mention that most mechs with sustain weapons have both a sustain and burst option attached to it due to their secondary weapons. Flak Cannon and potentially Heat Cannon still do well because they are pretty close to the sustain side of weaponary.

 

 

 

Also I think the air stuff leads to sustained being just a bit better than it would be otherwise. Cause you can hover and control distance just that little bit better. 

Edited by deidarall, 26 July 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[Flifang]

I'll say one thing, a pure damage reduction to sustain won't fix the problem. There are a few clues in this game as to how damage is calculated and it seems pretty clear it rounds numbers. A 2% damage reduction to sustain is so small the game engine wouldn't even notice a chance because each individual tracer is used in calculation. Unless we're talking a bullet doing any less than 50 damage each the game is going to round up anyway to keep better track of the numbers. Considering most of these bullet weapons deal at least 10 damage per shot a 15% damage reduction would be a maximum of 2 damage per shot lost on a lot of them.

 

This is all fine and dandy unless you were referring to a dps decrease witch in that case you should specify that. A damage reduction is what we should be considering anyway if we're talking a direct nerf to sustain. Dps is merely a perceivable outcome of when the game adds up all it's damage numbers and divides it by the number of seconds the damage went on for. Focus on what the engine uses or a fix like this won't even be considered by a developer who knows how the computer in the game does things.

 

I find it ironic that is the fix that can be calculated almost completely. Not only that, because it is based in mostly what the game itself does we won't have to theory craft or throw our biased opinions at each other like we're doing with the delay thing. Discounting somebody's ideas merely because you "don't think it will go well." is stupid when right here we have a visible, tangible, and completely relatable set of numbers to fuzzy bunny with to our hearts content until we see numbers that might even the score between burst and sustain a little more.

Edited by Flifang, 26 July 2015 - 04:54 PM.

[bacon_avenger]

I may be misunderstanding parts of this, but...
 

Actually I think it does play a big role. With burst mechs you have to dance to be able to beat a sustain mech, since in a straight dps race you will lose. Which is fine, different mechs different roles and ways to play. Several burst mechs require you to get close to deal good damage as well, and you have to approach while evading secondaries against sustain mechs.

Solution: Don't boost in plain sight of a sustain weapon, use cover and dodge around things.
 

Typically in mechs like scout, raider and infil you'll have to get close-ish and start to dance while unloading bursts between your dodges/boosts. Of course sustain mechs don't want to stand still either and a shorter/no delay benefits them as well but burst mechs would benefit more from a shorter delay.

Burst mechs have cooldowns between their primary shots, any time not spent evading damage during the cool down is wasted time taking less damage. On the other side, for sustain mechs any time not spent shooting primaries is wasted time not dealing damage. I think it's pretty clear why a shorter/no delay stands to benefit burst mechs more often.

Burst also does a hell of a lot more damage per shot than a sustain weapon does. Use cover and aim well.

 

Sorry, but I disagree and this entire thread, to me anyway, kind of feels like an attempt to disguise the 'reduce/remove the delay' push in a 'game balance' discussion.  I highly doubt that I'm ever going to agree that the delay needs to be reduced or removed from where it is now.

[Panzermanathod]

It would benefit Heat a lot, you want to start engagements with a charged shot and you want to use corners to poke them with charged shots as well. However, if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get to cover you're going to need to land those uncharged shots because you'll never have the time to stop and charge your Heat.

 

(((Delay removal will not really aid this. Again, delay removal will effect everyone, not just burst)))

 

Learning how to switch between shooting charged and uncharged depending on the situation and landing those hits is a big part of playing Heat A classes effectively, fight someone in a Heat infil as well and if he knows how to use the uncharged Heat while you try to charge it all the time up close, you'll lose. Some people are good at landing uncharged and they will fuzzy bunny you up.

 

The DPS difference is doubled between uncharged and charged. In that case, I think that a reduced delay for shooting your heat speaks for itself on how effective it would be.

 

(((By "Speak for itself" it looks like "says little to nothing". Delay removal isn't going to help it much, in relation to every other weapon that will be changed. Sure you'll shoot out a boost faster. So will everyone else.  )))

 

 

Well yeah, EOC is in desperate need of at least a projectile speed increase or faster loading for the 6 pucks. I play quite a bit of eoc infil and being able to shoot directly out of a boost would be a godsend though, how many times do you need just a bit more damage to finish someone who's already shooting back?

 

(((Are you asking that for EOCifil or just in general?)))

 

Perfect scenario is alphaing people by surprise and corner-play, but you don't always find yourself in a perfect scenario. People that know how to land eoc would benefit from it.

 

(((My experiences say otherwise.)))

 

T32 is another weapon that's much better charged, but keep in mind if the delayed is reduced you can also start charging said weapons faster.

 

(((I think T32 needs some alteration in general, and the delay isn't part of the issue I have with it)))

 

I think sustain is a tad too strong compared to burst right now. Again, I'm not saying it's the perfect fix and I'm not even saying it's necessary, just pointing out that it's obvious burst mechs would drool all over being able to shot directly from a boost. I know I would.

 

(((Then play Raider?

 

You don't have to say it's the perfect fix, but think about it...

 

If even you are saying that this alteration isn't a "perfect solution" (or at least a very good one) or necessary, why even bother trying to push the no-delay/ delay-removal agenda in this way? You and others are making it an ulterior motive, not a solution. )))

[Flifang]

Wait wait wait.... hold up here a moment. I DON'T CARE what your experience says about the best case scenario playing burst mechs. An alpha is the best case in any situation. You deal your damage first before they can begin attacking. Assuming your opponent will be wanting to shoot back this is one of the best things you can do to initiate combat. As for corner play: saying that isn't optimal for burst either is just plain ignorant. Every mech in the game save a technician, g2 assault, and an incinerator benefits from corner play. The meta is all defensive friend and aside from a few circumstances that would show otherwise any form of cover or preemptive strike will greatly tip the balance of power in favor of those able to achieve them.\

 

A player has choices in an engagement where neither of these are possible. They can either A hold their ground and rely on their dps and/or superior health pool to defeat an opponent or they can B use their mobility to try and avoid a good portion of their attacker's damage while dishing some out in between maneuvers. A lot of times you don't have the health or the dps to wear down an opponent say an EOC raider facing any form of Assault loadout. A raider is going to try and out maneuver the assault if it has to because out in the open running in this scenario would be a death sentence.

 

On the "perfect fix," part of this you really need to understand the outcome of these situations are 100% reliant on human competence. You can argue all day about dps numbers and dodge cooldowns but in the end it's what the player themselves are able to do. You can't fix something like this perfectly with so many factors to take into account. When I'm in my point-d assault and I see a scout in the middle of bazaar I immediately think "easy points." Any good scout player here would run in that scenario especially if I get the first tow in. Now, if that scout is able to hit me with a flak and tow before I notice him, he/she is at about even health with me now and has the element of surprise. Now it's a lot more even. What I would like to see, is for situations like I described with the assault getting the first shot in to be more even.

 

This has been a topic for a while and it's not just some random idea people like me who have a burst damage fetish made up to give them uber powerz. It's about the fact that for all the speed that is in the game now compared to before, the meta took a 180 right into favoring defensive play. Sustain damage has an advantage in that it can output solid damage at just about any time while also being able to assault, retreat, or hold position. That's something a lot of the other mechs plain can't do. I get that the mechs all have roles that make them weaker than others in certain situations but we really should not focus on the individual mechs themselves but on the two playstyles that divide all the mechs in the game regardless of the other small niches they fit into and that's burst and sustain. I want to see better elaboration from both sides of this argument because now both sides are refuting each other in the most brainless, narrow minded way possible. Stop telling other's they're wrong and not giving enough of a damn to give them a worthy response that actually elaborates more than two sentences.

[Onstrava]

You want a easy fix for the G2A???? Increase the damage for both vulcans by 2-3 points..DONE. No need for crazy nerfs to other mechs or crazy buffs, just alittle buff and that mech is fine. Personally I would still like to see a change in that mech's ability to something that increases it's rate of fire but thats my personal opinion. The reason that would be perfect for that mech is because it's the only mech that uses twin machine guns and doesn't do a crazy amount of damage per shot. The G2A is sooo close to being where it was meant to be from the start, it just needs alittle push and thats it. I said my piece, I'm done.

Edited by Onstrava, 26 July 2015 - 10:46 PM.