47 replies to this topic

[asipo]

Hellfire Missiles is one of my favorite weapon

As my experience, never shoot without lock since dumb fire can be easily miss

 

So my suggestion is, you guys remember half life 1 bazooka/RPG with laser guide?

Once you shoot, the rocket will follow your laser example: https://youtu.be/uNHcJpJ8sJI?t=26s

 

If you shot without lock, hold middle mouse button to guide the rocket

This will be much better and allow you to attack in arc for enemy behind cover

Of course the turning angle need to be limited

[JackVandal]

You have opened something beyond your power to close, 

 

As to the point, i think the dumbfire could use a solid speed boost, the laser guide is similar to a nepa suggestion. though it might not be balanced with the hellfires.

[Merl61]

Most people agree that the Hellfire missiles need some sort of buff. There is really no agreement as to what that should look like.

[Bazookagofer]

Due to the nature of homing lock on weapons in MM games like HAWKEN the hellfires need not a buff, nor a nerf. But a complete overhaul.

[JackVandal]

Due to the nature of homing lock on weapons in MM games like HAWKEN the hellfires need not a buff, nor a nerf. But a complete overhaul.

i agree it is hard to balance them, thats why i think the dumb-fire buff would be good, because it would not buff the locking nature of the weapon, what do you have in mind for an overhaul?

[Dawn_of_Ash]

i agree it is hard to balance them, thats why i think the dumb-fire buff would be good, because it would not buff the locking nature of the weapon, what do you have in mind for an overhaul?

 

I'd also like to know this.

 

What the OP suggested was quite a reasonable way to increase the skill-ceiling of the weapon without making it over-powered. I would also suggest something amoung the lines of a flare to directly counter missile weapons (hellfires included) but I've heard people disagree with the idea because it targets a specific weapon. 

 

I would honestly love a overhaul if it still allows for me to hit with 350 ping. Reason why that's a big deal is that this game is dying in many countries and people are being forced to play in other regions (with higher pings) due to their love for the game. I hope you don't punish them for that.

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 24 October 2015 - 09:30 PM.

[MomOw]

an easy way to have a useful dumbfire mode is to reduce the spread and increase the initial speed when targets are not locked.

(let's say same spread as mini-flak and an initial speed of at least 150m/s)

[Amidatelion]

Why improve Worst Shotgun?

[GreyFa1con]

Anyone ever think that the Bruiser and Rocketeer are bad at close range, by design?

I.e. They are a menace at long and midrange, but relatively helpless at short range.

And overall, would the game actually benefit from 2x more missile Mechs in every round?

[Amidatelion]

Having weaknesses at close range is fine, but you need to be good at long range to compensate.

 

Hellfire mechs aren't.

 

They're terrible at all ranges.

[thedark20]

Bruiser worst enemy is itself, it works against itself: primary CQC weapons, mid-long range secondary. Doesn't make sense

[IareDave]

He'll fires are still a pain in the ass to As in maps like bunker, bazaar and Eco to name a few. So please, folks, let's not buff this POS and let it be used as an entry mech for new scrubs (and Dew)

[ticklemyiguana]

new scrubs (and Dew)

You make it sound like the categories are mutually exclusive.

[AxionOperandi]

So my suggestion is, you guys remember half life 1 bazooka/RPG with laser guide?
Once you shoot, the rocket will follow your laser example: https://youtu.be/uNHcJpJ8sJI?t=26s
 
If you shot without lock, hold middle mouse button to guide the rocket
This will be much better and allow you to attack in arc for enemy behind cover
Of course the turning angle need to be limited

Thats an awesome idea but that should be a new weapon in my opinion.

To give Hellfires a bit more viability I would suggest a dumb fire that fires the the missiles in rocket mode in a serial fashion. They could fire sequential, in a tighter pattern, and at say 35% more speed and 15% more damage? That should make them much more useful in close quarters and in tighter maps where the Bruiser and Rocketeer are just not good ideas at all.

Edited by AxionOperandi, 25 October 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[HugeGuts]

Trying to make Hellfires into another TOW, as in an all-around general-purpose weapon, will never work given the all-too-powerful mechanic of lock on.

 

What needs to happen is a return to something like closed beta Hellfires. As in, a very large initial spread with slow mid-flight correction means Hellfires are only 100% effective at long range in open areas. However, all missiles hitting does huge damage to compensate.

 

Edited by HugeGuts, 25 October 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[AxionOperandi]

Trying to make Hellfires into another TOW, as in an all-around general-purpose weapon, will never work given the all-too-powerful mechanic of lock on.

A relatively quick row of rockets would be a lot different than a TOW rocket. They would not very effective at mid-range and almost useless at a distance but would be useful at close range and tight spots, situations now where you are all but guaranteed to be dead with Hellfires as they are now.

[JackVandal]

Trying to make Hellfires into another TOW, as in an all-around general-purpose weapon, will never work given the all-too-powerful mechanic of lock on.

 

What needs to happen is a return to something like closed beta Hellfires. As in, a very large initial spread with slow mid-flight correction means Hellfires are only 100% effective at long range in open areas. However, all missiles hitting does huge damage to compensate.

 

dang thats purdy, also, amazing to see how fast the game has gotten,

[Dew]

Increased travel speed is probably the safest (read: least likely to be detrimental to balance) and simplest way to buff Hellfires. I don't think anyone is going to disagree with that.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

i alwase feel like if they was a little bit slower it would be in the easy zone for me to dodge a cluster that i can see comming at me, atm they are just too fast to dodge half or more of the missiles cause only when it reaches say, 50 meters and closing do it appear not as 5 white dots but now a cluster of wobbling/yawing missiles i can now judge distance (unless im not also dodging his teamates i can focus on his weapon and should be able to dodge them everytime

Edited by MechFighter5e3bf9, 28 October 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[MomOw]

He'll fires are still a pain in the ass to As in maps like bunker, bazaar and Eco to name a few. So please, folks, let's not buff this POS and let it be used as an entry mech for new scrubs (and Dew)

 

I want usefull hellifre when I'm not using the lock-on button. I don't want it to be as good as MIRV, and as per salty salt google sheet the dumbfire still has a DPS lower than the TOW, so a buff of initial speed and spread reduction only for dumbfire mode would help.

[JackVandal]

Id also like a small damage boost on the things, even if its a longer reload time, Its really annoying to have to shoot 2 salvos to break a scrambler or scanner, 

[Bazookagofer]

Anyone ever think that the Bruiser and Rocketeer are bad at close range, by design?

I.e. They are a menace at long and midrange, but relatively helpless at short range.

And overall, would the game actually benefit from 2x more missile Mechs in every round?

They are not a menace anywhere unless you have 3 -4 Hellfire users on Bunker or Last Eco which are pretty poorly designed maps.

 

He'll fires are still a pain in the ass to As in maps like bunker, bazaar and Eco to name a few. So please, folks, let's not buff this POS and let it be used as an entry mech for new scrubs (and Dew)

Why should 2 mechs be completely scratched off for higher level gameplay? Especially in a game where we are supposed to have horizontal not vertical progression.

 

i agree it is hard to balance them, thats why i think the dumb-fire buff would be good, because it would not buff the locking nature of the weapon, what do you have in mind for an overhaul?

Well I was thinking of making em non lock on, very fast missile speed, medium to low damage. Something along the lines of this:

 

 

The fast missile speed would allow em to hold their own in CQC while also allowing em to surpress enemies at far ranges.

[JackVandal]

 

 

 

The fast missile speed would allow em to hold their own in CQC while also allowing em to surpress enemies at far ranges.

If im not mistaken, those look like SAMs, which are heat-seeking, perhaps give hellfires a more passive lock on? the auto track to nearby targets, and get a damage buff as half a salvo may go to another target.

[AxionOperandi]

If im not mistaken, those look like SAMs, which are heat-seeking, perhaps give hellfires a more passive lock on? the auto track to nearby targets, and get a damage buff as half a salvo may go to another target.

Thats rocket artillery.

Giving Hellfires a passive lockon would be boring as hell and no fun to use. As to their seeking function just start brining them back more inline to what they were before they got nerfed.

Improved dumbfire would be so sweet to have though. I was playing last night in my Bruiser and got into a firefight with a Assault in the hallways in Origin, obviously not a good situation. He was probably at 65% health but I couldn't quite get him so and to make a hasty retreat via a EMP with very little health. I figured he might chase me down rather than repair so I waited at the top the map for a couple of seconds and let a salvo of Hellfires go down the hallway which perfectly met him right at the corner and got the kill!

I think it would be really fun to be able to use Hellfires in those last ditch effort kind of scenarios on a regular basis.

Edited by AxionOperandi, 05 November 2015 - 12:20 AM.

[JackVandal]

Thats rocket artillery.

Giving Hellfires a passive lockon would be boring as hell and no fun to use. As to their seeking function just start brining them back more inline to what they were before they got nerfed.

Improved dumbfire would be so sweet to have though. I was playing last night in my Bruiser and got into a firefight with a Assault in the hallways in Origin, obviously not a good situation. He was probably at 65% health but I couldn't quite get him so and to make a hasty retreat via a EMP with very little health. I figured he might chase me down rather than repair so I waited at the top the map for a couple of seconds and let a salvo of Hellfires go down the hallway which perfectly met him right at the corner and got the kill! I think it would be really fun to be able to use Hellfires in those last ditch effort kind of scenarios on a regular basis.

yeah, i personally prefer the hellfires as they are now, i never got to play with them in the old version as i had no pc at the time, so i cant vouch for that. i would love a dumbfire buff for my cqc bruiser, unholy creation that it is. if the secondary was tweaked in such a way to be more viable in a 1v1 fight the ability adds some really interesting possibilities.

[Bazookagofer]

If im not mistaken, those look like SAMs, which are heat-seeking, perhaps give hellfires a more passive lock on? the auto track to nearby targets, and get a damage buff as half a salvo may go to another target.

Russian Rocket Artillery. They weren't heat seeking when they were first made. The Russians would line up a bunch of them and then aim in the general direction and let loose.

[GreyFa1con]

The fast missile speed would allow em to hold their own in CQC while also allowing em to surpress enemies at far ranges.

Because that wouldn't be balanced.

Besides which, it's already bad enough when you occasionally have 2 rocket spammers on an enemy team.

Now you want 3 to 4 on the regular?

How would that be "Fun"?

_

Edited by GreyFa1con, 05 November 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[Bazookagofer]

Because that wouldn't be balanced.

Besides which, it's already bad enough when you occasionally have 2 rocket spammers on an enemy team.

Now you want 3 to 4 on the regular?

How would that be "Fun"?

_

Unless you are playing on Bunker, Bazaar or Last Eco hellfire spam is never a problem. Even in open spaces their homing is whacky and can be dodged. Also for my idea you can always limit it to a burst of 8 fast missiles and then it can have a reload time. The point is to make em viable just. To balance it out you can increase the missile spread the further away they go. So at close ranges they can dish out some high damage but at longer ranges they are a mere annoyance.

[Nightfirebolt]

Hellfires just need more damage.

 

That's it.

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

[asipo]

after using hellfire for quite some time i'm not sure about this anymore

you guys think its mediocre or seriously under powered?

[StubbornPuppet]

This is still all about the fact that the Hellfires used to have a slightly unfair advantage in average skill to low skill lobbies... people who couldn't dodge them complained... and Adhesive replied with, "We are going to work on the Hellfires.  We're going to start by giving an excessive nerf to their speed and tracking, see what results that brings and then slowly build them back up until we feel we've hit the sweet spot.

 

And so they performed their excessive nerf to travel speed and tracking turn rate... and then never made another single update to the game again.

 

So, in my opinion, that's the first thing that needs to happen: someone at ReLoaded needs to start slowly increasing their travel speed and tracking until that is in a good place.

 

Then I think they need to work on the warning system other players get when they have been fired - so that it is easier to tell the general direction they're coming from and how close they are.  Thus making them something that most players can learn to dodge with good timing.  They aren't hard to dodge at all right now because they barely turn to track at all and fly slow.  The people who have spent so much time on the game and have exception reflexes and situational awareness can dodge them by instinct... but a better warning system would make it possible for more players to have a reasonable chance of dodging Hellfire rockets that are faster and turn more quickly.  Harder but also easier - better for everyone.

 

Then, there's the original point of this topic, improving dumb-fire.  It's my opinion, still, that the dumb-fire only needs slight adjustments to get it to a good balance that makes it useful, but does not make the Rocketeer OP by making it too versatile at all ranges.  I think if they're dumb-fired, they should move just a little faster, have just a little better grouping and have just a bit more splash damange.  Also, their damage should be absolutely consistent with being locked on - meaning each individual rocket should do the same amount of damage just because it hits the target - locked on or dumb.  It's still the same rocket and carries the same payload either way.  So, if 4 of my rockets hit a target I've locked on to, they should take away the same amount of health as if 4 of my dumb-fired rockets hit the same target.  Same for splash damage.

[AxionOperandi]

^^^

Yeah, if you simply buff Hellfire damage then it quickly becomes OP noob killing machine at lower levels of play which is not what Hawken needs at all. Tweak speed and seeking slowly in increments and change the dumbfire.

[JackVandal]

^^^

Yeah, if you simply buff Hellfire damage then it quickly becomes OP noob killing machine at lower levels of play which is not what Hawken needs at all. Tweak speed and seeking slowly in increments and change the dumbfire.

the simple solution to that is to increase the cooldown and buff damage, dps stays the same while giving the hellfires a little more oomph.

[GreyFa1con]

the simple solution to that is to increase the cooldown and buff damage, dps stays the same while giving the hellfires a little more oomph.

Umm no. That just makes it even more annoying. And instant death if 2 or more players are using it.

You really gotta think these things through.

Furthermore, virtually every long range weapon in the game is weaker at short range defense.

"Balance" is all about balancing strengths and weaknesses. Long range and "the gun aims for you" are pretty big strengths.

Stop asking for "no weaknesses".

http://www.gamedev.n...y-balance-r1765
_

Edited by GreyFa1con, 13 November 2015 - 04:06 PM.

[JackVandal]

Umm no. That just makes it even more annoying. And instant death if 2 or more players are using it.

You really gotta think these things through.

Furthermore, virtually every long range weapon in the game is weaker at short range defense.

"Balance" is all about balancing strengths and weaknesses. Long range and "the gun aims for you" are pretty big strengths.

Stop asking for "no weaknesses".
 

In comparison to a Sabot? hitscan tow? im not saying make it op, im saying make it more burst, the idea of balanced is that it has to be good at a something, hellfires are meh at best at medium range, they are close to useless at long and short.

 

it would be easy enough to give them a similar spread and increase initial speed then have them home at range, they stop being worthless at short range, and they get a buff to burst make them actually competitive, 

[Meraple]

it would be easy enough to give them a similar spread and increase initial speed then have them home at range, they stop being worthless at short range, and they get a buff to burst make them actually competitive,

Increasing the initial speed and burst won't do much against anyone with good reaction time in close range since the max velocity isn't that high and no airburst.

To put it plainly, buffing the acceleration and burst of a weapon that barely hits anyone together with a long reload won't make it competitive.

[JackVandal]

Increasing the initial speed and burst won't do much against anyone with good reaction time in close range since the max velocity isn't that high and no airburst.

To put it plainly, buffing the acceleration and burst of a weapon that barely hits anyone together with a long reload won't make it competitive.

thats what i was getting at, buff the speed of the weapon to where its competitive, even if it slows down to track, that buffs dumbfire and doesn't break tracking.

[DeeRax]

I feel like buffing dumbfire to the point of being generally viable is worth sacrificing the effectiveness of the lock-on ability, if need be.
In other words, the weapon should be an awesome cluster of missiles, first. Lock-on capability should be secondary to it's overall effectiveness (just IMO).

(I want effective dumbfire to be a thing, and most important, because I think with good dumbfire capability, heat cannon rocketeer would actually be extremely fun to play, for everyone of all skill levels).

Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 14 November 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

While we're all considering all the factors that balance a weapon/mech, remember that the Rocketeer is super slow moving and it's choices of primary weapons are all pretty sad - even the Seekers.

 

The Seekers were also nerfed as part of Adhesives unfinished attempt to cripple the Rocketeer and then slowly bring things up to find a sweet spot (remember, they never got back to updat it like they intended).  The Seekers can barely even be called that any longer because they hardly turn to track at all.

 

And, although the Heat Cannon is a great weapon in general, the Rocketeer is too sluggish to use it effectively like you can on an Infiltrator or Scout.  And EOC's... there's just nothing sneaky about a Rocketeer to make this a good fit in my opinion.

[asipo]

While we're all considering all the factors that balance a weapon/mech, remember that the Rocketeer is super slow moving and it's choices of primary weapons are all pretty sad - even the Seekers.

 

The Seekers were also nerfed as part of Adhesives unfinished attempt to cripple the Rocketeer and then slowly bring things up to find a sweet spot (remember, they never got back to updat it like they intended).  The Seekers can barely even be called that any longer because they hardly turn to track at all.

 

And, although the Heat Cannon is a great weapon in general, the Rocketeer is too sluggish to use it effectively like you can on an Infiltrator or Scout.  And EOC's... there's just nothing sneaky about a Rocketeer to make this a good fit in my opinion.

change EOC to SA-Hawkin then