69 replies to this topic

[_incitatus]

I use both interchangeably with no rhyme or reason

 

Same here.

[ticklemyiguana]

Did tickle just ask our opinion on something then tell us we're wrong?

Actually I was asking how it was pronounced in the UK region, as that was the topic at hand. You're not, but you're still wrong. The strongest piece of evidence to that end is the fact that there is a word, "rout", whose definition is completely separate from "route". You'll notice it's the same exact spelling as "route" except there's no E at the end. When an E is silent at the end of the word, it is modifying the pronunciation of the word preceding it, often for a harder and more direct sound, but not always, so let's not immediately assume that. Rout is pronounced "rowt" by default as an unmodified OU sound is pronounced "ow". That leaves few other options for pronunciation when the E is in place. Once we go through that very limited list, which includes "rut" and "rot", of which obviously neither are correct, the only remaining option so long as we're assuming "route" is a single syllable word, is "root".

It's not actually a matter of opinion in this case, it's one of those special cases where English follows logic. Hearing people say "rowt" is like hearing them say "irregardless." Some people accept it, and in fact some have tried to formalize it based on its apparent frequency of use, but it doesn't change the fact that it's fully and completely wrong.

 

I was seeking input from occupants of the UK because while English is still formally the same, I have very little experience with how colloquial English is spoken.

 

 

No, he asked how people pronounced it for the purposes of attempting to make fun of people employing the dynamism of the English language.

The dynamics of the English language are only very rarely imparted to its pronunciation, and even then, nothing rises to the top of my head. Given the significance of language for my trades, it is a matter of high importance to me. If you speak enough, eventually someone will misinterpret what you say no matter how cautious you are.

 

And for the record, all of you, I occasionally catch myself saying "rowt" as well, especially in things like routing cables. It doesn't change the fact that it's incorrect and I make a conscious effort to change that.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 26 January 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

The context is a clue in this case as to if "offense" is meant seriously or not. "it's just words" would lend to them being taken seriously. Different languages have different ways to get those clues.

 

For example there's a lot less "multi-function" words in french than in english, in english you'll often see a word that can have an entirely different meaning depending on the sentence and context. French has more "single-use" words that mean one specific thing. Taking that into account some things which seem evident and "just words" to one language isn't as clear-cut for the other language.

While I appreciate this explanation greatly as it does provide some new insight, I feel this is a matter best left to exposure to the language and/or culture. There are still holes in the gap in communication here that I feel would take a very long time to remedy by text.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 26 January 2016 - 12:17 PM.

[Hyginos]

Actually I was asking how it was pronounced in the UK region, as that was the topic at hand. You're not, but you're still wrong. The strongest piece of evidence to that end is the fact that there is a word, "rout", whose definition is completely separate from "route". You'll notice it's the same exact spelling as "route" except there's no E at the end. When an E is silent at the end of the word, it is modifying the pronunciation of the word preceding it, often for a harder and more direct sound, but not always, so let's not immediately assume that. Rout is pronounced "rowt" by default as an unmodified OU sound is pronounced "ow". That leaves few other options for pronunciation when the E is in place. Once we go through that very limited list, which includes "rut" and "rot", of which obviously neither are correct, the only remaining option so long as we're assuming "route" is a single syllable word, is "root".
It's not actually a matter of opinion in this case, it's one of those special cases where English follows logic. Hearing people say "rowt" is like hearing them say "irregardless." Some people accept it, and in fact some have tried to formalize it based on its apparent frequency of use, but it doesn't change the fact that it's fully and completely wrong.

[Amidatelion]

It doesn't change the fact that it's incorrect and I make a conscious effort to change that.

[ticklemyiguana]

Ugh. fuzzy bunnyng phones.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 26 January 2016 - 01:22 PM.

[EM1O]

or you could get back to the dialects thing. here in Tidewater Va, old scotts dialects still haunt the more rural areas. moas, hoas, and roat. and it's sort of flat-tongued, not the cartoon lighthouse keeper with a moos loos inna hoos pronunciation. 4 centuries and people still can't speak american here. and the box on the desk is a roa-tah (and it is a warping of router/ "ow")

i won't go into how they pronounce "Norfolk" here, but i've had help-desk people hang up on me.

[ticklemyiguana]

or you could get back to the dialects thing. here in Tidewater Va, old scotts dialects still haunt the more rural areas. moas, hoas, and roat. and it's sort of flat-tongued, not the cartoon lighthouse keeper with a moos loos inna hoos pronunciation. 4 centuries and people still can't speak american here. and the box on the desk is a roa-tah (and it is a warping of router/ "ow")

i won't go into how they pronounce "Norfolk" here, but i've had help-desk people hang up on me.

I've never encountered that particular strain of English. I flew into Norfolk Airport just two weeks ago as well. Huh.

[6ixxer]

I say:

Geez mate its hot, over forty in the shade

 

Yanks say:

forty's cold, not hot.

 

I will happily say root when referring to driving, however in terms of networking, I say rowt or rowter as I can't stand when people tell me their rooter is broken (Geez, mate sorry to hear yer rooters down and you can't get it up again, go see the Doc lol)

 

I also have a rowter in the garage for cutting notches in wood.

[ticklemyiguana]

I say:

Geez mate its hot, over forty in the shade

 

Yanks say:

forty's cold, not hot.

We don't all live in Florida.

 

40 F certainly isn't hot, but it's only cold on the windiest of days.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 26 January 2016 - 05:46 PM.

[6ixxer]

its more pointing out that 'merica is the only country I know that spells temperature -
f.a.h.r.e.h.e.i.t

You can argue that we pronounce Brisbane and Melbourne incorrectly while we're here, amongst a long list of words I suspect.

[ticklemyiguana]

its more pointing out that 'merica is the only country I know that spells temperature -
f.a.h.r.e.h.e.i.t

You can argue that we pronounce Brisbane and Melbourne incorrectly while we're here, amongst a long list of words I suspect.

We spell temperature t.e.m.p.e.r.a.t.u.r.e. We use Fahrenheit, Celsius, and Kelvin, but Fahrenheit is used colloquially because it's better for the purpose of discussing day to day temperatures. Kelvin is better for scientific processes. Celsius is often best for cooking.

 

There are of course, several other temperature scales that have some niche uses, but no one knows them.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 26 January 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[n3onfx]

 

Fahrenheit is used colloquially because it's better for the purpose of discussing day to day temperatures

 

That's highly debatable. Knowing that 0� means black ice and rain->snow, as well as 37� being the body's temperature (nice round number as opposed to F�) isn't useful just for cooking. I mean the Fahrenheit scale is based on the zero being the temperature of a thermometer placed in brine, it's completely outdated.

 

Just like feet/inches/yards/penislenght/miles/whateverrandomshityouwanttomeasurewith and spelling the date in an order that makes no logical sense whatever compared to DD/MM/YYYY or the reverse YYYY/MM/DD keeping it the old way boils (pun not originaly intended) down to immobilism. Which there is nothing wrong about, but saying it's better makes no sense.

Edited by neon, 27 January 2016 - 04:08 AM.

[hellc9943]

[Hyginos]

That's highly debatable. Knowing that 0� means black ice and rain->snow, as well as 37� being the body's temperature (nice round number as opposed to F�) isn't useful just for cooking. I mean the Fahrenheit scale is based on the zero being the temperature of a thermometer placed in brine, it's completely outdated.

 

Well, when discussing human condition:

In Fahrenheit, 0 is pretty darn cold and 100 is pretty darn hot.

In Celsius, 0 is sorta cold and 100 is lethal.

In Kelvin, 0 is lethal and 100 is also lethal.

 

So in that sense Fahrenheit is an extremely convenient unit of measurement.

Edited by Hyginos, 27 January 2016 - 06:00 AM.

[DerMax]

Hah, this thread.

 

Did you also know that Subaru is stressed on the first syllable in English? Well, the muricans probably know, but for Europeans this can be news.

Edited by DerMax, 27 January 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[ticklemyiguana]

That's highly debatable. Knowing that 0� means black ice and rain->snow, as well as 37� being the body's temperature (nice round number as opposed to F�) isn't useful just for cooking. I mean the Fahrenheit scale is based on the zero being the temperature of a thermometer placed in brine, it's completely outdated.

 

 

Knowing the body's temperature is 37 C? That's scarcely better than 98.6, and is also of fairly limited use considering a healthy human internal temperature can vary with ease, and well, how often are you taking your temperature? On the same token, if 37 C is easy to recall, it's quite simple to know that 32 F is the freezing temperature of fresh water.

 

In the meantime, for uses of temperature that are literally every single day of the year, often multiple times a day and in multiple environments, having a scale which not only uses 0 and 100 as fairly human limits, but also allows greater variance in whole numbers when discussing temperatures, since you brought that up, is, well, it's just plain useful.

 

Just like you know French and English on account of so much of the world using English, many if not most Americans know a variety of units of measurements. Would you even know the boiling and freezing temperatures of water in Fahrenheit without looking it up? It's used, not due to immobility, as you've claimed, but because it's convenient. Similar to how saying "June 10th" is quicker and easier than saying "10th of June", and the particular order when written numerically doesn't matter in the slightest, though it's nice to have it mirror spoken conversation. And sure, the metric system absolutely makes more sense. You'll get no argument from me there or really anyone, and I have a real hard time understanding why of all things that is what people like to focus on. That's why most people with more than an elementary school education understand at the very least, distances in the metric system, and if you have even the tiniest focus in the sciences, you understand the rest of it. That being said, we have a landmass almost the size of Europe, and changing to the metric system beyond it being the system taught in our schools (which it is, I'm guessing by your comment you were unaware) by changing every street sign that uses miles or miles per hour to metric would cost the GDP of one of your smaller countries. If you'd like to call that immobile, feel free, but since it's a matter of economics, my assumption is you'd prefer to avoid that whole subject.

 

I apologize for my tone, but the various stereotypes regarding the United States have a tendency to rub me the wrong way, certainly the incorrect ones, but those I can at least attribute to plain ignorance - worse are the ones like this very discussion on temperature where there's a clear and effective reasoning for doing things this way, but much of the world thumbs their noses at it, for what? If we're stating that the ability to communicate effectively makes one system better than another, in the large majority of cases, Fahrenheit is objectively the better scale. But no, we'll attribute it to "immobilism" because water.

 

Allow me to take that back. I have a hard time "apologizing" for my tone. Neon, your own tone was quite flippant to begin with. Lets be civil about this.

 

Thank you for granting the United States our independence from Britain.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 27 January 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[n3onfx]

Wut, why would anyone apologize for any tone? We are talking about temperature scales, any funny jab will make me smile not be mad or vexed 

 

Of course I know metric is used in the US, in fact every single of your scientific institution uses metric (the well known and funny metric/imperial conversion that caused a probe to crash on Mars is one of the reasons why). Which further baffles me as to why another scale is needed for everyday use when C� already exists. As for the date format trust me it's a massive pain in the ass, in IT the standard is to either go DD/MM/YYYY or the reverse, knowing which one is used is pretty easy in one glance. Sometimes though someone will randomly use MM/DD/YYYY and in some cases it's impossible to know if they don't specify it causing fuzzy bunnyups along the chain.

 

Still don't see how Fahrenheit is in any objective way better, it doesn't have a scale that makes much sense, it's used nowhere else, isn't in the ISO standards, it's based on outdated methodology and the argument of "but it allows for more variety!" is moot as soon as you realize you can read decimals. Why make it complicated to learn two different scales when having to switch between cooking, the medical field (honest question, do doctors use F� or C� when talking to patients? What do they use when talking amongst themselves?) and so on. There's a reason it was dropped everywhere else. The list of cons so is big that I honestly can't see how it can be called "objectively" better.

 

I'm not aware that there's a stereotype about that topic, what would a stereotype about measurement scales imply that's negative? Judging people negatively based on that would just be petty to the point it becomes funny.

[ticklemyiguana]

 

Of course I know metric is used in the US, in fact every single of your scientific institution uses metric (the well known and funny metric/imperial conversion that caused a probe to crash on Mars is one of the reasons why).

Er. We switched in 1975.

 

 

Still don't see how Fahrenheit is in any objective way better, it doesn't have a scale that makes much sense, it's used nowhere else, isn't in the ISO standards, it's based on outdated methodology and the argument of "but it allows for more variety!" is moot as soon as you realize you can read decimals.

Your argument not mine:

37� being the body's temperature (nice round number as opposed to F�)

 

 

it doesn't have a scale that makes much sense,

It's a linear scale. So is Celsius.

 

Why make it complicated to learn two different scales when having to switch between cooking, the medical field (honest question, do doctors use F� or C� when talking to patients?

Why indeed? We should just use Kelvin since that's the most objective. That being said, we never actually use celsius, it's kind of the middle child between Fahrenheit and Kelvin in terms of its utility.

 

 

 

honest question, do [medical] doctors use F� or C� when talking to patients?

Fahrenheit.

 

 

What do they use when talking amongst themselves?

Fahrenheit.

 

 

 

The list of cons so is big that I honestly can't see how it can be called "objectively" better.

Your list is comprised of "other people don't use it." End of list.

 

As for why, again, because for basically all common usage, 0 and 100 are representative of extreme outdoor temperatures, and because we can count by fives and tens when discussing variations in temperature without miscommunication.

 

In the process of an edit: The above statement isn't terribly clear.

 

My intent is to basically state that in communication, rounding to the nearest 5 or 10 won't miscommunicate the temperature, whereas in Celsius, that doesn't work. Since most of us don't wear thermometers around our neck, that's a nice perk.

 

 

it's completely outdated.

How?

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 27 January 2016 - 11:26 AM.

[Kopra]

Why indeed? We should just use Kelvin since that's the most objective. That being said, we never actually use celsius, it's kind of the middle child between Fahrenheit and Kelvin in terms of its utility.

 

Celsius converts to Kelvin much easier...

I'd love to have a world with only one type of measurement, in the electronics field it's a pain to start converting mils (1/1000th of an inch) to metric or vice-versa in very space specific applications. The majority of display sizes are also somehow measured in inches in the otherwise metric Europe.

[n3onfx]

Er. We switched in 1975.

 

"officially", in practice though clearly not enforced given the fuzzy bunnyup provided as an example. One word that comes up often when reading about this switch is "voluntary".

 

The 37� example was provided as one of the thresholds being a round number, not as saying decimals are hard to read.

 

 

Your list is comprised of "other people don't use it." End of list.

 

Well yes, other people don't use it because it doesn't make much sense when something better exists, they completely switched at a time where it was possible for them.

 

How?

 

 

It's based on the stable room temperature of a mix of water and brine which was the way back when it was invented to get a stable temperature. As such the scale isn't based on a timeless factor. As opposed to C� which is based on just water. By the way, Kelvins are just C� minus 273,15. That's it. It's again based on just water.

 

It's like measuring distance in inches/feet/miles, but stuff like ammunition is measured in millimeters. Medicine dosage is measure in milligrams but pill containers in drams and so on. There's a metric lol shiton of examples that don't make much sense. Just looking at this is baffling at how ineffective it looks.

 

 

Again, this isn't judging the value of people based on what scale they use to measure temperature. I'm also aware of how daunting it would be to convert every single usage of imperial to metric in a country as big and as advanced (further multiplying the amount of places measurement systems are used) as the US. I'm just addressing your claim of F� being objectively better.

Edited by neon, 27 January 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[hellc9943]

Well, when discussing human condition:

In Fahrenheit, 0 is pretty darn cold and 100 is pretty darn hot.

In Celsius, 0 is sorta cold and 100 is lethal.

In Kelvin, 0 is lethal and 100 is also lethal.

 

So in that sense Fahrenheit is an extremely convenient unit of measurement.

On a side note, this is very depending on location when it comes to human condition and perception. A lot of people will rarely if ever have the need to measure outside temperatures below 10-15�C, let alone temperatures below zero, and probably don't even have an idea what that feels like (it's certainly not "sorta cold" to them).

[6ixxer]

That little troll on Fahrenheit went way beyond how I thought it would :) :P
I knew US used Fahrenheit mostly for temperature, hence why I chose an example about a 40 deg temperature day.
Thanks Tickle for bringing logical arguments and reasoning. Its so much more interesting than most misguided uninformed augments on the internet.

I thought more may react to the original accompanying comment that we rarely say 'rooter' because in 'straya root is a colloquialism for fu**. eg: Didya root 'er? Mate, its rooted.

Also in straya a 'tinny' is both a can of beer or a small metal boat (dinghy)

Cheers,
6ixxer

[/tangent]

Edited by 6ixxer, 27 January 2016 - 01:54 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

 

"officially", in practice though clearly not enforced given the fuzzy bunnyup provided as an example. One word that comes up often when reading about this switch is "voluntary".

 

The 37� example was provided as one of the thresholds being a round number, not as saying decimals are hard to read.

 

 

 

Well yes, other people don't use it because it doesn't make much sense when something better exists, they completely switched at a time where it was possible for them.

 

 

It's based on the stable room temperature of a mix of water and brine which was the way back when it was invented to get a stable temperature. As such the scale isn't based on a timeless factor. As opposed to C� which is based on just water. By the way, Kelvins are just C� minus 273,15. That's it. It's again based on just water.

 

It's like measuring distance in inches/feet/miles, but stuff like ammunition is measured in millimeters. Medicine dosage is measure in milligrams but pill containers in drams and so on. There's a metric lol shiton of examples that don't make much sense. Just looking at this is baffling at how ineffective it looks.

 

 

Again, this isn't judging the value of people based on what scale they use to measure temperature. I'm also aware of how daunting it would be to convert every single usage of imperial to metric in a country as big and as advanced (further multiplying the amount of places measurement systems are used) as the US. I'm just addressing your claim of F� being objectively better.

Ughhhhh. So I have to make this kind of brief. I think I just broke my ankle for this shot:

Spoiler

(raw image)

 

These two statements:

 

"officially", in practice though clearly not enforced given the fuzzy bunnyup provided as an example. One word that comes up often when reading about this switch is "voluntary".

 

First, whoever made that mistake was a dolt. Plain and simple. High schoolers don't make that mistake. There was definitely an error in the oversight as well, but it most likely boiled down to no one expecting anyone to make such a juvenile mistake.

 

Second, is it not voluntary over there? You really couldn't use the imperial system if you wanted to?

 

This one:

 

Well yes, other people don't use it because it doesn't make much sense when something better exists, they completely switched at a time where it was possible for them.

 

Thus far you haven't provided any evidence of Celsius being the better option for common usage - barring things like cooking. As such, your argument seems to pivot on the notion that x number of people use it. I'd like to move away from that kind of thought process given that majority opinion doesn't necessarily follow logic.

 

This one:

 

It's based on the stable room temperature of a mix of water and brine which was the way back when it was invented to get a stable temperature. As such the scale isn't based on a timeless factor. As opposed to C� which is based on just water. By the way, Kelvins are just C� minus 273,15. That's it. It's again based on just water.

 

I think the formal response to this is "So?"

But I'll expand on that. I was perhaps wrongly taught that the word "Kludge" is a term that refers to something that was intended for one purpose but found a better usage in another. Though that may be the wrong definition, I would like you to keep that concept in mind. Whatever the roots of either Fahrenheit or Celsius, their most common usage is in telling the temperature of the air that people are in or might be exposed to. I find it extremely difficult to find one to be "outdated" for that usage, though, as you might imagine, I would find Celsius to be outdated when applied to common uses of temperature. If we were to say the roots were outdated, well, Celsius would be too, since its most common usage is measuring the temperature of air, not water.

 

 

It's like measuring distance in inches/feet/miles, but stuff like ammunition is measured in millimeters. Medicine dosage is measure in milligrams but pill containers in drams and so on. There's a metric lol shiton of examples that don't make much sense. Just looking at this is baffling at how ineffective it looks.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend time reading a wikipedia article on common usage of various units in the United States. I live here. When looking at that, I don't even see a chart and you really shouldn't expect someone to read a whole thing for purely numerical information. All I can say is that imperial units are often used to measure distances above a meter or so, and even then it's entirely situational. Beyond that it's also situational. As far as everything else is concerned with the exception of occasionally force, and at that point only colloquially and in reference to gravitational force in particular, metric is quite standard. No one, at least in my generation, that I know of was ever taught imperial units for anything, and I really think that this whole section of this discussion is fully rooted in staunch ignorance of the subject matter - at best.

And as a follow up, the rest of the world still uses imperial units for several things as well. For most people, regardless of what country you're from, the difference in measuring between the United States and elsewhere is limited almost entirely to three things: road signs, cooking, and human measurement - and even then only in terms of height and weight.

 

 I'm just addressing your claim of F� being objectively better.

 

I'm not positive whether or not I've made that specific claim, rather I feel as if I've been wary to word things in exactly not that way. I believe I've been consistently making the claim that it's objectively better for common usage - namely the measurement of air temperature in human environments.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 27 January 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[hellc9943]

Are you typing this drunk from the top of a mountain, tickle? You Canadians are crazy.

[n3onfx]

 

I'm not positive whether or not I've made that specific claim, rather I feel as if I've been wary to word things in exactly not that way. I believe I've been consistently making the claim that it's objectively better for common usage - namely the measurement of air temperature in human environments.

 

"If we're stating that the ability to communicate effectively makes one system better than another, in the large majority of cases, Fahrenheit is objectively the better scale"

 

That's where I got it from, and the basis of my argument anyways. That F� isn't in any means other than subjective better to communicate temperature than C�.

 

For the voluntary part no, in scientific and medicinal fields I know for a fact you need to use ISO standard units here, in the US the 1975 act you mentioned makes the adoption voluntary for each field/agency. I don't how it is now though, I remember reading NASA making ISO units obligatory in two-thousand something.

 

As for the rest, maybe it boils down to me not liking inefficiency, but as I said there's nothing to judge people on. I'm not making a claim on a whole nation's citizens' intelligence or worth based on measurement units. Just typing that feels dumb enough.

 

 

 

 

More importantly though, why are you bothering responding here when you have access to a view like that?! Damn I'd kill to be somewhere like that right now instead of stuck in a tiny apartment trying to shove pages of terminology down my throat for exams in 6 hours.

[ticklemyiguana]

 

More importantly though, why are you bothering responding here when you have access to a view like that?! Damn I'd kill to be somewhere like that right now instead of stuck in a tiny apartment trying to shove pages of terminology down my throat for exams in 6 hours.

 Because this is my view.

Spoiler

 

Regarding literally everything else regarding the immediate discussion, this conversation has lost its luster and I don't intend to contribute any more.

[OdinTheWise]

seems tickle has come to the conclusion that he is drunk and has decided to go home

[EM1O]

@6ixxer

japanese. heh. 

na-GAWs'ki   nagasaki

h'ROH-sh'ma   hiroshima

s'SEbo  sasebo

t'yoh-TAW   toyota

h'yoonDAI   hyundai

s'BARoo   subaru

 

and they have large numbers of village/colloquial variations on "japanese" that verge on insanity.  Almost like Brooklyn or da Bronx

Edited by EM1 O, 03 February 2016 - 12:42 PM.

[6ixxer]

I found a good one last night...

 

Falkin, an Asian player, said he had to empty his 'bladders'. An obvious typo.

 

I eagerly enquired how he had more than one, followed by saying "I suppose a goon-bag counts as a bladder".

 

Reply of WTF???

 

All those that know what I mean by 'goon-bag'... represent...