56 replies to this topic

[Moonstone]

Personally I would like to see the fast paced action of the light mechs to get a buff to where the competetive scene isn't required to play into the heavy meta, but that's just me.

 

Opinions.

[Exceller]

Completely agree. Incin needs a nerf ASAP. Bring back the A class dance squad.

[Houruck]

This combo is way to powerful, there is good a reason we banned it from scrims.

[Merl61]

In Missile Assault, All mechs have their place. C classes are strong, but the mobility that an A grants has a use on any team. The current meta, (with the exception of incin tech, scanner, and orbs) is in a very good place in my opinion. 

[Moonstone]

In Missile Assault, All mechs have their place. C classes are strong, but the mobility that an A grants has a use on any team. The current meta, (with the exception of incin tech, scanner, and orbs) is in a very good place in my opinion. 

I think one of the main issues is when you get stacked heavies and a tech in any mode that it throws any sort of balence you have out the window unless your side decides it wants to follow suit in some way. Regardless, having balence work for only one mode isnt exactly a positive note regardless.

 

del tech

Edited by Moonstone, 21 March 2015 - 05:47 AM.

[Vdragon]

+1 nerf inci pls

[Merl61]

I think one of the main issues is when you get stacked heavies and a tech in any mode that it throws any sort of balence you have out the window unless your side decides it wants to follow suit in some way. Regardless, having balence work for only one mode isnt exactly a positive note regardless.

del tech

The best tpg teams didn't even run tech in MA, except on origin. It's good, but not the best. The meta is slightly more complex than you are giving it credit for.

[Amidatelion]

What Merl says. The tech is too damn easy to vaporize in any mode that's not Deathball TDM. It was a problem on Origin because that map requires control of S2/AA and the tech has many evac points. 

 

Is tech/incin cheese? Yes, but that has more to do with the fact that the incin is a broken piece of trash, not that the tech is a broken piece of trash. Nerf the incin, leave the tech. Hell, give the tech a prestige weapon that isn't garbage.

[GMKGoat]

I'm seeing a bit of back and forth, but no ideas being thrown around on what could address the issue. What do you guys think could change that would help break up this combination that doesn't involve removing either mech from the game or crippling their use? My experience with Incinerators is pretty sparse so I'm really interested in seeing some opinions.

[Merl61]

What Merl says. The tech is too damn easy to vaporize in any mode that's not Deathball TDM. It was a problem on Origin because that map requires control of S2/AA and the tech has many evac points.

Is tech/incin cheese? Yes, but that has more to do with the fact that the incin is a broken piece of trash, not that the tech is a broken piece of trash. Nerf the incin, leave the tech. Hell, give the tech a prestige weapon that isn't garbage.

<3

[Amidatelion]

Honestly maybe a limit to how much heat an incin can strip from a single mech. That would nerf the combo pretty hard while still retaining both sides abilities and in conjunction with these suggestions would probably solve the problem.

[Sylhiri]

What Merl says. The tech is too damn easy to vaporize in any mode that's not Deathball TDM. It was a problem on Origin because that map requires control of S2/AA and the tech has many evac points. 

 

Is tech/incin cheese? Yes, but that has more to do with the fact that the incin is a broken piece of trash, not that the tech is a broken piece of trash. Nerf the incin, leave the tech. Hell, give the tech a prestige weapon that isn't garbage.

 

We have four sources of healing in the game, that's way too damn much. The only balanced healing system so far is manual healing.

[FlamingBeaker]

Why can't we just make the Tech's heal beam not able to heal incin-class mechs, and make the SAARE alt-fire rate of fire longer/more Detonator-like: big boom but slow?

 

Or make the Tech's heal beam healing rate progressive (heals slowly at first, then accelerates)?

 

Incin P4P4/alt-SAARE is one of my favorites, but yeah, it's definitely OP and needs a nerf.

[Amidatelion]

 

Or make the Tech's heal beam healing rate progressive (heals slowly at first, then accelerates)?

 

 

I don't hate this idea, but it doesn't address the combo issue. As it is, the tech can heal infinitely with an Incin nearby.

[FlamingBeaker]

Maybe the heal beam needs to be fed from a fuel tank that slowly replenishes over time - empty tank, no heals.

[Merl61]

Maybe the heal beam needs to be fed from a fuel tank that slowly replenishes over time - empty tank, no heals.

It's called heat. Like amid said, the tech is fine. The combo is only op because the incin is op.

[Sylhiri]

In Missile Assault, All mechs have their place. C classes are strong, but the mobility that an A grants has a use on any team. The current meta, (with the exception of incin tech, scanner, and orbs) is in a very good place in my opinion. 

 

What about Team Deathmatch and Siege?

 

It's called heat. Like amid said, the tech is fine. The combo is only op because the incin is op.

 

I **** you not if they nerf Incin the tech will attach itself to the next powerful mech, happened with Raider>Incin. It's like a parasite man.

[hestoned]

just lower the damage output of the incin slightly. isnt that the problem anyway? it just does an insane amount of damage VERY quickly. tech+brawler is really good too but not seen as game breaking because the brawler is easy to run from. i think everything else about the incin is fine (boost speed, fuel, hp) its just the incredible damage output it has that makes it slightly game breaking

[FlamingBeaker]

Well, I guess I admit defeat. Even after throwing everything at the wall ( Slow-mo SAARE! Heat-powered EOC pucks! Immobile when firing SAARE! Huge damage nerf! Slow down primary's ROF! Swap the SAARE for a short-range flamethower!) , nothing sticks.

 

I'm still left with a mech that has near unlimited ammo, enables my teammates to fire longer, has multiple area-of-effect weaponry, and a ton of armor.

 

Incin may well need to be removed from the game, or restricted to Mayhem servers only. Fun to drive, but the whole heat-dispersion mechanic is too OP for regular play. I'll enjoy it while it lasts.

[Grollourdo]

Why not just kill the tech as priority then kill the incin? Maybe a Lil speed Nerf for incin? And yeah of course there are a lot of op combos in the game but isn't all that just strategy? Lol

Edited by Grollourdo, 21 March 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[RespawningJesus]

How about the incinerator cannot drain the heat from any allies that are currently firing or using their weapons? Have it so that the Incin cannot drain heat unless your ally has not been firing for a set period of time (maybe 2-3 seconds?)

[Grollourdo]

How about the incinerator cannot drain the heat from any allies that are currently firing or using their weapons? Have it so that the Incin cannot drain heat unless your ally has not been firing for a set period of time (maybe 2-3 seconds?)

Wow I think we found our winner! XD

[IareDave]

just lower the damage output of the incin slightly. isnt that the problem anyway? it just does an insane amount of damage VERY quickly. tech+brawler is really good too but not seen as game breaking because the brawler is easy to run from. i think everything else about the incin is fine (boost speed, fuel, hp) its just the incredible damage output it has that makes it slightly game breaking

This.

I like the incin. It has a very unique play style. However, it also has the highest dps in the game, one of the fastest Cs, and can fire indefinitely if played perfectly - with its only weakness being air targets, and even then it's not a big deal because of it's hitscan Dmg. Nerf the dps, and you have yourself a solid mech.

[IareDave]

(Delete)

Edited by IareDave, 21 March 2015 - 07:48 PM.

[hestoned]

How about the incinerator cannot drain the heat from any allies that are currently firing or using their weapons? Have it so that the Incin cannot drain heat unless your ally has not been firing for a set period of time (maybe 2-3 seconds?)

this sounds promising and makes sense

[RespawningJesus]

Wow I think we found our winner! XD

The way I see it, if you get rid of the Incin's ability to siphon heat, it loses all meaning of being a support mech.  Damage output can be tuned easily. 

 

Techs have the freedom to heal for a considerable amount of time, they really don't need that kind of support to make them best friends with the Incin.

Edited by RespawningJesus, 21 March 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[Grollourdo]

The way I see it, if you get rid of the Incin's ability to siphon heat, it loses all meaning of being a support mech.  Damage output can be tuned easily. 

 

Techs have the freedom to heal for a considerable amount of time, they really don't need that kind of support to make them best friends with the Incin.

 

good point XD

[Draigun]

The very design of Incin breaks the core mechanics of the game. Vana said the same thing. While it was fresh at first, Incin quickly became overpowered because of damage throughput and its ability to cause other pilots to overheat.

 

While you can justify the use continued through a nerf and what not, it won't change the fact that this mech was never designed to see the light of day in Hawken gameplay.

 

I'm going to presume that removing the Incin from the game shouldn't be a pain in the ass, since it has its unique set of weapon loadouts. Although, that being said, since all mechs have access to the same internals and items, perhaps not.

 

Even though the Incin is quite overpowered, you don't see many pilots using it, do you? For good reason too, since its mechanics are not fun; you don't need to take into account anything other than a blurred field of vision for aiming, and a cadenced left/right click on the mouse. You have the necessary amount of health to not totally worry about your position, and escaping should be simple, since it has quite the amount of thrust speed.

Edited by Draigun, 21 March 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[Grollourdo]

Hey ok I just thought of something why not the incin can strip out heat from enemies too I mean come on its kinda logic if u absorb heat how can it be absorbed pricisely from specific mechs? Lol of course the incin can give the heat back with its ability but it could still take it again XD this could be cool since then players can take advantage of the enemy incin get it?

Then if there are two incins in different teams then in a team fight the invins will strip off the heat of all nearby heat which could be shared between both incins depending on how much of the heat is there and how close the incins are to the heat sources XD

Then, incins can also steal heat from enemy incins which is kinda nagating the enemy heat supporter for the team

Enemy incinn can also take the heat in the other incin which becomes a conflict between who could take the heat and negate it from the enemy if this makes sense. This would reenforce the incins supportive aspect and gameplay

Then maybe we can also criple all incins to take damage if they have too much heat XD this could also be played with using tactics letting the enemy take ur heat so he takes damage or something get me?


These are all just ideas XD I came up in a shower lol so yeah feel free to brain storm on these ideas and all XD

XD god I love suggesting ideas lol as u can see XS

[Panzermanathod]

How about the incinerator cannot drain the heat from any allies that are currently firing or using their weapons? Have it so that the Incin cannot drain heat unless your ally has not been firing for a set period of time (maybe 2-3 seconds?)

You mean slightly shorter than the natural time it takes for a normal mech to cool down? What's the point, then? Frankly I think so many people think the Incinerator is trash that they agree to a skill that, really, has no real purpose (and hey, you guys get to give a useless skill to a mech you don't like).

 

This "revised ability" would be draining heat while the mech is cooling down. Either that or your whole team would need to be told "Hey stop firing every now and then so I can get your heat."

 

Having it drain enemy heat is also a bad idea. You're basically giving it an ability that does it more harm than good for it.

 

I've said before I main Incinerator. People want it nerfed/reworked but given what people suggested, in most cases, will either make the mech much worse or you might as well just replace the Incinerator.

 

As for Incinerator not taking heat from Tech's heal beam, that's fine with me. Personally I've had a Tech heal my Incinerator in an extended battle maybe 3 times in the 50 or so hours I've played.

 

Furthermore, if you do have Incinerators absorbe ally and enemy heat, you essentially make it useless in close range battle, to the point of making it a liability. Why even target the Incinerator? Shoot at its ally as the Incinerator just burns up because it takes in everyone's heat.

Edited by Panzermanathod, 31 March 2015 - 06:49 PM.

[Grollourdo]

Yeah that's true but one thing if it also takes enemy heat then their might also be a benefit.

More hear more damage no?

Something like that.

Every much should have advantages and downfalls. XD that's all I enjoy from hawken XD everything balanced....

Edited by Grollourdo, 31 March 2015 - 07:56 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

Every time this convo comes up, it's the tech that gets the short. Stop complaining about the tech and kill it. We do it all the time. We have a scout/infiltrator for that reason. It's a hard counter. A tech healing any heavy cannot be defended by that heavy from a scout. Even an incin unless it gets too close. I play a tech. It's not easy business once you get past 1700 mmr because people know how to play up there. Incins aren't terribly scary to anyone but me and our scout and that's only because that's one mech the scout has to be supper careful around. Like Merl says, the meta is a little more complex. High level meta may require this combo, but that's map and enemy team dependant, not somethimg that must be done to play. We don't evem have a dedicated incin. We'd like one, but there are mechs that fill different roles that can be just as dangerous. Does it need a tweak? Sure. It's hell in low mmr encounters. But it's only slightly dominant in my mmr range. Maybe barring techs and incins shouldn't be allowed at low level play. If we had a ladder this wouldn't be an issue to impliment.

[JackVandal]

I'm seeing a bit of back and forth, but no ideas being thrown around on what could address the issue. What do you guys think could change that would help break up this combination that doesn't involve removing either mech from the game or crippling their use? My experience with Incinerators is pretty sparse so I'm really interested in seeing some opinions.

i feel the incini would be better balanced if it had issues stripping heat from the tech, if it removed heat at half rate for techs that will nerf it in most areas, it does have crazy dps, but only with PPA, and if it slightly overheats hes down for 7 seconds.

 

As to the main topic, i think the heavy's are in a mostly good spot, the only issue is when one team ends up all c class against a mostly a class team, the c's will out hp the other team and win by shear tonnage, but aside from these rare occasions i think the c class is in good spot. 

[Grollourdo]

I completely agree with you two

[Panzermanathod]

Yeah that's true but one thing if it also takes enemy heat then their might also be a benefit.

More hear more damage no?

Something like that.

Every much should have advantages and downfalls. XD that's all I enjoy from hawken XD everything balanced....

 

If it takes enemy heat that just means the enemy can shoot you more. Well, you and any nearby allies. One of the downfalls of a mech should not, in any way, be "helps the enemy shoot you more". At least with Turret Mode you get added defense and become a damage sponge to draw in fire. But your suggestion is actively helping your opponent.

[Grollourdo]

If it takes enemy heat that just means the enemy can shoot you more. Well, you and any nearby allies. One of the downfalls of a mech should not, in any way, be "helps the enemy shoot you more". At least with Turret Mode you get added defense and become a damage sponge to draw in fire. But your suggestion is actively helping your opponent.

Of course why not?

If he can shoot you more but also, we can shoot them more.

I think this might solve all the "the incin too op!" Problems

On icin vs another mech.
Other mech over heats but in in doesn't .

If we do this then icon does a bit more damage (idk about damage and all but maybe we can do it) but both mechs continue to fight and doesn't over heat. It a two way corridor don't look at it one way XD

if its 5v5 then (I think you could see the scenario XD)

ETC

[Panzermanathod]

Having a mech who's ability is actively aiding the enemies to your detriment is not balance. Being a prime target is one thing, like a Tech, but if the tech could heal enemies and drain life from allies it would be a far worse mech.

[Grollourdo]

but the thing is that it does not ONLY take from the enemys  or ONLY takes from alies it takes from EVERYONE in the radius .  i think that is balance no? 

[Panzermanathod]

What I said still stands, you should not balance a mech by making it help your opponent with your own ability. I don't see that as balance or nerfing, I see it as breaking a skill.

[Trinnexx]

Seems a lot of people are saying the Incin damage is too high, I have noticed. Its ability is to control heat, and use it as a weapon so it should probably be balanced as such. A simple solution for the feedback could be: An Incin cannot absorb the heat of a healing Tech.