206 replies to this topic

[Ace4225]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on November 29 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

im saying HAVING THE CHOICE makes the game better....for everyone. not just the people who would never chose , for example, dual smg on a beserker.....but for EVERYONE. 6 different combo's per mech is better game.

What part of "we had the choice, but it made the game worse" did you not understand_

Regardless of what you think, with the choice of having any combo of weapons you want, there's bound to be certain combos that will have more DPS than any other combo. Competitive players will be forced to pick these high-DPS combos in order to be able to win.

That's why the devs limited the mech classes to only certain weapons in the first place.

[AsianJoyKiller]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on November 29 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

the truth is that many would pick the tow as a secondary anyway. but not EVERYONE. and thats my point the entire time.

People will gravitate towards what is easiest and most power, thus you'll have an overwhelming amount of people using dual weapons.
Because they're more powerful, not because they're more fun.

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im not saying dual smgs would be over-powered or underpowered. no i am appealing to better design.

No, you are not appealing to better design.
You are completely ignoring matters of balance, whether or not dual weapons could be balanced and mindlessly spewing your opinion that "dual weapons = better game design" without backing it up with any factual evidence.

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im saying HAVING THE CHOICE makes the game better....for everyone. not just the people who would never chose , for example, dual smg on a beserker.....but for EVERYONE. 6 different combo's per mech is better game.

Except dual wielding does not actually make the game better, and would ruin balance as has been proven multiple times now. And when you ruin balance, you make the game worse.

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its not like replacing the pawns in chess..
its like adding more pieces to the board, and making the board have more squares.

It's like keeping the board the same number of squares, but just replacing all your Knights or Rooks with more Bishops.

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how can you use team fortress or tf2 as an example when it doesn't have dual wielding_

because in tf2 i get to swap out ANY of the weapon slots. my arm isn't LOCKED by some god-engineer-in-the-sky.

It is a game balanced around being able to use 1 weapon at a time.
Hawken is balanced around being able to use 2 weapons at a time.
On top of that TF2 is not a good example for weapon balance.

[PlagueDoctor]

Ink is your primary weapon, paper is your secondary weapon. Its hard to write a book using two inks or two pieces of paper.



E: two pieces of paper could let you make a rad paper-airplane though.

Edited by PlagueDoctor, November 29 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[z121231211]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

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Les TOW TOW TOW GRENADE HELLFIRE TOW TOW TOW TOW

Anyone else read that in mechakaka's voice_

Spoiler

Let's say you start out the game and find your pretty ineffective with the secondary, but alright with the primary. Why wouldn't you just dual-wield them_ Now you find yourself ripping through mechs like no tomorrow. What reason do you have to learn the secondary now as you're doing just fine without it. Primaries are what you use most in 1v1 combat and the person with 2 primaries will have the advantage.

What would you rather have, your SMG do twice as much damage or use a SMG WHILE having to use a secondary that you have to use differently to get the rest of the damage_

Spoiler

I wrote that just to post Mecha-Kaka.

Edited by z121231211, November 29 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

plague doctor, no it isn't like taking them off.

current mech weapon selection choice. 2
after adding dual wielding.. 6

6 see_ 2 + 4 options PER MECH.

being able to chose to double up is more choice, more squares on the board. better game. DUAL SMG's are a choice. im chosing to focus on bullet damage. and not  have a TOW,

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You say that 2x SMCs is equal to double the stats is false and then go on to immediately say that 2x SMCs is equal to doubling the stats.
Seriously. You just proved Beemann was right, while telling him he was wrong.

WOW is English your second language or something_ He said '' you are just doubling one gun''. and i corrected him, saying in no uncertain terms. '' that's not correct, it is doubling the gun, whilst Sacrificing the tow ''

i have no idea in what messed up way another steel killer is going to de-rail this thread. it's absurd.

Necro, i would say that being able to CHOSE is what matters.
Right now all the mechs feel like a gun with a mech attached, because you can't swap the secondary for a 2nd primary.

I can't rush in with my beserker like i would love to. I have to keep distance due to the TOW's friendly fire.

don't get me wrong, i'll kill you with an smg and a tow, and ill play to win no matter what mech im given.

but in my heart, my mech isn't complete till i chose what is on every part. being forced to take a tow, however good it might be, is a disappointment.

z121231211


I say to you, im ripping though them like no tomorrow anyway. im winning because im a better pilot. Its not the guns winning it for me.
With dual smg's ill have more fun , they have more fun, Everyone has more fun and choice.


bottom line, enough of this,

Dual wielding = more money for hawken.

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, November 29 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

lol just read more retardation from asian killer

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On top of that TF2 is not a good example for weapon balance.

Reeaaaaaaaaaaaly_ so i take it you aren't a game designer then.

http://www.game-ism....vs-vanilla-fps/

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, November 29 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[z121231211]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on November 29 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

z121231211


I say to you, im ripping though them like no tomorrow anyway. im winning because im a better pilot. Its not the guns winning it for me.
With dual smg's ill have more fun , they have more fun, Everyone has more fun and choice.


bottom line, enough of this,

Dual wielding = more money for hawken.

You're a fun guy. I like you.

Casualizing a game=more money. Hats at 11.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

better gameplay + good advertising + effective monitisation + top notch design = More players loving game and buying credits.

im passionate about games as an art, as a business, and as sport.

dual wielding = better game

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, November 29 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[z121231211]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on November 29 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

dual wielding = better game

So CoD is an objectively better game artistically, financially, and competitively because it has dual-wielding_

You're in space man.

Edited by z121231211, November 29 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

i didn't say that, don't put words in my mouth.

[nightsky]

postinginatrollthread.jpg

[z121231211]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on November 29 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

i didn't say that, don't put words in my mouth.

You win this time. Anway,

"With dual smg's ill have more fun , they have more fun, Everyone has more fun and choice."
Being forced to use and get effective with your secondary is a gratifying learning experience, therefor more fun for everyone at a small sacrifice to choice.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

Massive choice loss, 2 mech loadouts instead of 6.
for ....a gratifying learning experience_ from the great engineer god in the sky_

No. one could have that anyway when picking tow as the other arm (which alot of players would do btw, given it as a choice instead of a forced set up)

[AsianJoyKiller]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on November 29 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

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You say that 2x SMCs is equal to double the stats is false and then go on to immediately say that 2x SMCs is equal to doubling the stats.
Seriously. You just proved Beemann was right, while telling him he was wrong.

WOW is English your second language or something_ He said '' you are just doubling one gun''. and i corrected him, saying in no uncertain terms. '' that's not correct, it is doubling the gun, whilst Sacrificing the tow ''

You said that Beemann was "factually incorrect" in stating that having double weapons is the same as doubling the stats on 1 gun.
But now you state that "it is doubling the gun".
By your own admittance, and in your own words, you have stated that it is factually correct that having a dual wielded weapon is the same as double the stats of a single version of that weapon.
Whether or not you lose utility of TOW has nothing to do with the factual correctness of what Beemann stated.

Also, do not lecture people on their abilities to handle the English language when you show a lack of basic reading comprehension skills and can't even display grammar, punctuation and spelling that would meet the standards of a high school graduate.

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im winning because im a better pilot. Its not the guns winning it for me.

Prove it. Make a video that displays your skills as a superior Hawken pilot. I've already shown you the tools you need for it.
At the very least, post a screenshot of your profile.
If you're as good a pilot as you say, you should have a great K/D and winrate.

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With dual smg's ill have more fun , they have more fun, Everyone has more fun and choice.

That is purely your opinion, stated as fact, and this thread is evidence that it can not be fact.

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Dual wielding = more money for hawken.

Prove it.
With solid facts, not your opinion.

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on November 29 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

lol just read more retardation from asian killer

And you accuse me of personal attacks...

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On top of that TF2 is not a good example for weapon balance.

Reeaaaaaaaaaaaly_ so i take it you aren't a game designer then.
http://www.game-ism....vs-vanilla-fps/

And beyond the vanilla weapons with all the other ones they added_ Are you going to seriously tell me there's never been a balance issue because of them_

Also, you have yet to prove that you are actually a game designer.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

giving you facts is giving pearls to swine, I have been logical and rational the entire time. Steel killers have swamped this thread drowning out the noise of all the other players. and when they hear their own echo they say '' can't you hear everyone agreeing with us_''

Why don't you PROVE dual wielding would fail_

This argument is absurd, i could be Alexandra the great and you would argue with me on the finer points of military tactics.

[Omega22]

Yea , i would opt for a custom server that gives players to dual wield or mix  and  combine their load outs  and see how it goes... we are disputing always about output dps and heat.... compensate i say....

Why must my mech shut down .. its only the guns that have over heated , i say guns should go offline until cooled and come back online... The idea of the mech shuts down gets a thumbs down ...

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

keep it on topic, and damn straight i want the opportunity to prove what they are saying is untrue. A patch where dual wielding is an option would be fantastic. These steel killers will never admit they are wrong.

[Necro]

We have proved it would fail in the way you have suggested to implement it.

Necro, on November 29 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

It would take 3.8 seconds to kill an A class even if you missed over half your shots with two mini flaks. I don't know What skill level 1/2 your shots are but i assume it's low. If you didn't want to over heat you could still miss a little under 1/2 like 45% and not overheat but kill them. AND Only 1.6 seconds if you hit with every shot,

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Let's take it further, and look at other dual combos and how fast they would kill the 928 health C-Class.

x2 AR take 6.1 seconds to kill the mech.
x2 Vulcans take 4.6 seconds to kill it.
x2 Flak takes 3.7 seconds to kill it.
x2 Miniflak takes 2.9 seconds to kill it.
The Vulcan and Flak would both overheat before killing the mech, but by letting off the trigger for just a half second, that can be completely avoided.

Even the weakest duel combo is 1.4 seconds faster then having a primary and a secondary.

I'm beginning to think this just might be one person with multiple accounts who feels like trolling.

Edited by Necro, November 29 2012 - 06:02 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on November 29 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Why don't you PROVE dual wielding would fail_

I already did.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Omega22, on November 29 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Necro , thanks for the technical stats about weapon damage... i liked that and thanks.. Using that as a base example lets fix the odds and ends of the inbalance the damage out put would cause.
Lets not look at raw damage ... we can lower them to compensate ... but the cream, the cherry would be , yes we would get an edge in firepower damage output say 10-20% extra damage output  BUT OUR HEATBUILD UP WOULD BE X 2 than not dual weilding..
game balanced !!! Vola ...

Here's the first problem, if you tweak damage values, heat values or any values to balance them for dual wielding, then you end up throwing off the balance for standard weapon combos. You literally cannot have the weapons balanced for both standard loadouts and dual loadouts.

Now on to the second problem.2x heat generation does not equal balance. And here's the math to prove it.

A C-class mech that has been fully outfitted for maximum health, will have 928 armor.

2x SMCs will do 174 Damage per Second and take 6.7 seconds to overheat.
Dual SMCs will kill a 928 health C-Class in 5.3 seconds.

A SMC/TOW combo does 124 Damage per Second and takes 9.8 seconds to overheat.
The SMC/TOW combo will kill a 928 health C-Class in 7.5 seconds.

That means it takes 2.2 seconds longer for the SMC/TOW combo to kill that mech than the dual SMC. That means that dual SMCs can kill 29% faster than a standard combo. As you can see, the doubled heat generation does nothing to counter the superior killing power.

Let's take it further, and look at other dual combos and how fast they would kill the 928 health C-Class.

x2 AR take 6.1 seconds to kill the mech.
x2 Vulcans take 4.6 seconds to kill it.
x2 Flak takes 3.7 seconds to kill it.
x2 Miniflak takes 2.9 seconds to kill it.
The Vulcan and Flak would both overheat before killing the mech, but by letting off the trigger for just a half second, that can be completely avoided.

Here's another thing to consider.
Using weapons like dual SMCs or dual Miniflaks is much easier than using a SMC/TOW combo or a Miniflak/TOW combo. With SMCs, Miniflaks (and since they are the most effective dual combos, they will be the most used) and the like, all you really have to do is get in range, point at your target and hold down the trigger to get optimal DPS.
On the other hand, in order for a gun/TOW combo user to get optimal DPS, they have to manage to get direct hits with the TOW every time. And getting direct hits consistently with a relatively slow moving projectile is much more difficult than doing so with bullet weapons.

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we have a game that is  suited for both playing style
For skilled players who choose not to dual weild
And for  players who like to rely on raw firepower.. rather than skill

As I've shown above, the dual wielded weapons can be far more effective than a standard combo.
This means that the benefit of using easy weapons far outweighs the benefits of using skilled weapons.
And in fact, even if a skilled player uses the standard combo perfectly, the will still lose to the dual combo.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 29 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Omega22, on November 29 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

You mean to say a c class mech or any other mech is simply going to be a open target , like shoot me...that is based on assumption that the mech is stationery .  if its moving, if its fast, if the player is skilled, then by golly its going to take lot more than 5.3 seconds....to kill...

You ignored this:

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That means it takes 2.2 seconds longer for the SMC/TOW combo to kill that mech than the dual SMC. That means that dual SMCs can kill 29% faster than a standard combo. As you can see, the doubled heat generation does nothing to counter the superior killing power.

So obviously, that just means if it takes more than 5.3 seconds to kill a C-class with x2 SMCs just because it's dodging, then it will still take even longer to kill using a standard weapon combo.
You also did absolutely nothing to address the fact that dual wielding give vastly superior firepower, while taking less skill to use.

Aside from that all, there is just as much burden on you to prove that it can work in a fair and balanced manner as there is on my to prove it can't. You do not get a free pass.

And who do you really think the devs would side with_
The people who are backing up their posts with numbers, facts and reason, or the guy who regularly calls people "retards" and has provided no facts at all_

[Omega22]

The only reason i started this thread or had this suggestion are for all the reasons that rdKNIGHTMAREZ had mentioned and for Hawken  to add more depth and options for the game and for the players...

having said this , it would be really good for all of us to see a video clip made by our Team Hawken showing us a game play with dual wielding primary guns and what the game will feel like so we can all decide finally ...

As a FPS gamer , what draws me to a game is wider selection of guns / mods/ and customization ... if you give me standard issue of load outs that i am stuck with ... well it gets boring  and lacks that killer punch feeling...

its like this .. primary deals less damage , our secondary deals more damage

i want 2 primary guns that would deal the same amount of dps as having  1 single primary and 1 secondary but for the loss of my secondary i would gain a small amount damage output  boost for my dual primary ... energy from the secondary is transferred to the dual primary system , the trade off here being the heat build up will be accelerated by 2 bars extra quicker so we cannot fire our weapons like a Gatling gun ...

So Hawken Team ... if you can make us a video showing us in game footage of dual wielding primary guns then it would bring this subject to a close .

Edited by Omega22, November 29 2012 - 06:32 PM.