44 replies to this topic

[spicymelons]

Been playing Berserker a lot in this closed Beta. I’ve mostly been playing Siege and Missile Attack. I like objective based games.

I hate giving out my strategies but there seems to be some grief surrounding Rocketeers.
Rocketeers are a pain to deal with, They can just about one shot me if I have even a little damage.

As a Berserker, the last thing I want to do is fight one. Conditions have to be perfect for me. I will not go near one in the open, unless I can safely boost to cover.
If there is a Rocketeer more than a football field away from me, I won’t bother.
Just get behind some cover and stop moving. If you’re still, you’re invisible on radar.
I am playing the fastest Mech in the game. When I see a Rocketeer, I will boost directly toward him. Trying to keep him on my right side (those missiles can’t turn around and seem to make wide right turns.)
I want to get behind him ASAP. Most of the time you can’t do this. They will turn around too. Maybe their teammates are around. That’s fine. Keep him focused on you. The mobility is your real advantage.
Pop my damage booster if I can and start rattling his cage. I’m not trying to kill him, just get him about halfway. Then I will run.

If they don’t follow me, I will circle around and come back.
If they follow me, I am dead. Unless there is plenty of cover.
If they run, let them. You successfully rattled their cage.

[Zyrusticae]

Lithium03, on November 25 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

It's the 5th greatest heat generator out of 15 weapons, and due to the ability to charge the HEAT cannon, it's effectively 0, so Seeker gets bumped up to 4th greatest.

Numbers, please.

I've never seen one overheat, ever. Something is off here.

[Akaon]

Zyrusticae, on November 26 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Lithium03, on November 25 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

It's the 5th greatest heat generator out of 15 weapons, and due to the ability to charge the HEAT cannon, it's effectively 0, so Seeker gets bumped up to 4th greatest.

Numbers, please.

I've never seen one overheat, ever. Something is off here.

I have, both playing with and against rocketeers. Ofc, if they're just hanging back and not shooting constantly, why would they. If they fire constantly, they'll overheat relatively quickly (tho not as quick as a vulcan perhaps).

[ReachH]

spicymelons, on November 26 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

If you’re still, you’re invisible on radar.

Well fuzzy bunny, you learn something every day.

Interesting to hear what its like playing as a beserker.

[Zyrusticae]

Akaon, on November 26 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

I have, both playing with and against rocketeers. Ofc, if they're just hanging back and not shooting constantly, why would they. If they fire constantly, they'll overheat relatively quickly (tho not as quick as a vulcan perhaps).

Interesting.

I think the problem is that it is simply impossible for me to fight rocketeers because of the blockage of sight from explosions, the homing projectiles, and the fact that their DPS is the same as mine even though their projectiles have a near-100% chance to land, so they just end up killing me long before they actually hit that threshold.

Seriously_ I can't believe people are defending this junk. If they're homing, they should do less damage. If they're doing the same damage with the same heat generation as other primaries an ability as powerful as homing should not be thrown on top of it. I don't even care what your excuses are, it is just absolutely frustrating to play against these things, I'd rather they be taken out of the game entirely and replaced with something else.

Edited by Zyrusticae, November 26 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[ReachH]

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

You seem to have missed the core of the argument entirely
If a class isn't balanced for 1v1 (in that it's so powerful it shouldn't be looking at you if you hope to survive) and if it can choose its fights through firepower, and engage multiple targets
Then what do you expect to do against multiple rocketeers_
If a numbers advantage is required to beat a particular mech, what do you do when you CANT have the numbers advantage_
If there's no way to viably shut down a rocketeer (which there shouldn't be, by your admission) then they're imbalanced
If a rocketeer facing you = you die (something else that you yourself said), then they aren't balanced

Also lol@ another thread in which people try to base balance off of deathmatch

SS have 0 problems dealing with Rocketeers.

We dump on them.

We have problems with scouts and beserkers, infiltrators etc. Scouts and beserkers can't really engage a rocketeer (as someone else has illustrated, instead of throwing around assertions).

Sounds like balance to me, darling.

What part of my OP sounded like I was balancing off DM_ I literally added that SS goes well with Rocketeer because they screen away the fast A-Class damage dealers. Please read OP properly before replying to any topic.

*edit*
Also, this guy is hilarious - disagree with me here, then stealing the idea and posting it in another thread. http://community.pla...me/#entry103910

Amazing.

Edited by ReachH, November 26 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[Conquistador]

I want to bring up an obvious comparison the lot of you have seemed to miss: we have two homing weapons in the game currently. The first is the aforementioned seeker, the second is the hellfire missile pod.

There are enormous differences between the two of these which dictate why one feels balanced and the other doesn't.

Hellfires have received both a nerf and buff since my early testing. They received a major damage nerf (in line with the grenade launcher and tow) but their missile tracking when locked on has been tightened. I feel the changes are fine because of a major nerf to how long it takes to perform the lock on. Lock on used to be instantaneous... now it takes two seconds or so to lock. And informs your enemy conveniently on their HUD that they're a glowing target. And are extremely visible with contrails pointing the source from where they were fired. Plus they have a decent reload time like all secondary weapons.

You don't get any of these niceties with the seeker. The seeker has an instant lock on, since the moment you fire, it begins to home. The projectiles are almost invisible with no active indicator on the HUD. Their rate of fire is through the roof, and they barely leave any trace pointing to their source of origin. They're practically a stealthy fully automatic version of the Hellfires.

Something has to give. I'd rather the seekers lose their homing ability so seeker rockets actually behave like unguided rockets rather than heat seeking missiles, but no true solution is forthcoming.

Just remember anytime you include a weapon that aims for a player, you've lowered the skill floor drastically, perhaps to irreparable levels. Aim assist, while standard in console gaming, has always been tantamount to multiplayer suicide on the PC. It is, quite frankly, the stuff hacks are made of.

The only way to balance a weapon with aim assist is to give it some major drawbacks that force the player to choose the best tactical time to use them. The Hellfires are balanced this way. The seekers are not.

Edited by Conquistador, November 26 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[ReachH]

Zyrusticae, on November 26 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Interesting.
I think the problem is that it is simply impossible for me to fight rocketeers because of the blockage of sight from explosions, the homing projectiles, and the fact that their DPS is the same as mine even though their projectiles have a near-100% chance to land, so they just end up killing me long before they actually hit that threshold.

Please give us an idea of the mech you play, how you play, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc .etc .etc .etc .etc et.c et.c e.tc. etc.etc .et.c et.cet.ce.tc. et

[Akaon]

Well, as far as i know, the main killer is hitting a good hellfire volley, seekers just give solid dps while waiting for it to pop up again. If you eat an entire stream of missiles, you're gonna die, but you'll also die walking into a constant barrage of grenades, or anything really. Dodging missiles works differently than dodging bullets.

However, if you give the seeker the lowest dps in the game like you're suggesting, rocketeers will be a complete joke with their large hitbox and low speed. Anyone could just run into them and get their easy kill, as it's quite hard to miss them. Both playing my scout and rocketeer, i find rocketeers very easy to deal with, perhaps that's because i actually play the rocketeer and know how the missiles work (and how to dodge them). Absolutely hate fighting class A mechs, however.... (other than the ones that run up to you in a straight line).

Lowering the RoF while keeping the same DPS will make dodging the seekers more rewarding though, and put more pressure on rocketeers to time them properly so that they'll hit, instead of just shooting as long as you have your target in your crosshair.

If you honestly think the missiles have a near 100% hit rate, you're doing something very wrong however.

Edit: making seekers more visible along with the RoF reduction should solve everything, imo. Adding a clear lockon sound might be a bad idea, as you couldn't distinguish anymore between the hellfire and seekers. But, if something is slow,  homing and easy to dodge, how does this take away any skill_ It's so easy to make it hit a wall or to just dodge it. Being homing can actually be used against you without much effort.

Edited by Akaon, November 26 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[D3m0n1t3]

Actually rocketeers are best use to even out the odds. It helps when fights are one sided. I was getting killed many times when using other mechs. So I switch to my rocketeer trying to upped my kills. Well, it worked, sometimes.

Also, as sportmanship , when the team I'm in is winning the match, I don't use rocketeer. btw, I'm still learning to play this game.

p.s.: about the seeker, how bout making it fire 1 rocket from a 3-5 rocketpack then have to wait for reload_ Reload is half the time of hell fire missiles. Just a suggestion.

[Akaon]

D3m0n1t3, on November 26 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Actually rocketeers are best use to even out the odds. It helps when fights are one sided. I was getting killed many times when using other mechs. So I switch to my rocketeer trying to upped my kills. Well, it worked, sometimes.

Also, as sportmanship , when the team I'm in is winning the match, I don't use rocketeer. btw, I'm still learning to play this game.

p.s.: about the seeker, how bout making it fire 1 rocket from a 3-5 rocketpack then have to wait for reload_ Reload is half the time of hell fire missiles. Just a suggestion.

Why not just reduce rate of fire in that case_ Comes down to the same thing, well, other than the fact you'd want them to be all about burst damage instead of a more continuous stream of missiles.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Conquistador, on November 26 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

Just remember anytime you include a weapon that aims for a player, you've lowered the skill floor drastically, perhaps to irreparable levels. Aim assist, while standard in console gaming, has always been tantamount to multiplayer suicide on the PC. It is, quite frankly, the stuff hacks are made of.

The only way to balance a weapon with aim assist is to give it some major drawbacks that force the player to choose the best tactical time to use them. The Hellfires are balanced this way. The seekers are not.

There's a phrase I like, that I used to describe turrets in GA as.

Legitimate Aimbotting.

Seekers aren't quite there, but it's a damn thin line.

[DeVact]

Akaon, on November 26 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

If you honestly think the missiles have a near 100% hit rate, you're doing something very wrong however.

Couldn't agree more. When using my Berserk i usually just pop in and out of cover and fuzzy bunny the hell out of any Rocketeer!

[Beemann]

ReachH, on November 26 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

SS have 0 problems dealing with Rocketeers.

We dump on them.

We have problems with scouts and beserkers, infiltrators etc. Scouts and beserkers can't really engage a rocketeer (as someone else has illustrated, instead of throwing around assertions).

Sounds like balance to me, darling.

What part of my OP sounded like I was balancing off DM_ I literally added that SS goes well with Rocketeer because they screen away the fast A-Class damage dealers. Please read OP properly before replying to any topic.

*edit*
Also, this guy is hilarious - disagree with me here, then stealing the idea and posting it in another thread. http://community.pla...me/#entry103910

Amazing.

You mean the idea that concerns only hellfire, and doesn't promote seeker use at all_
Y'know, the secondary that's inconsistent, requires a full lock, can be 90% dodged without cover, and has a pretty normal firerate for the secondary_ The one that can't be spammed to "cover a retreat"_
Yeah that one

And where did you suggest balance based on deathmatch of some sort_
Maybe here_

Quote

I don't play siege or assault, maybe you could contribute more to the discussion.

Talking about balance in the two more likely competitive gamemodes = not adding to the discussion, unless of course you're asking people to treat you like a child and explain the entire gamemode and why 1v1s happen in it
In which case, that's still pretty sad and you still admit to basing your balance considerations around DM and TDM

And yeah, I can't particularly think of a situation in which an equally skilled sharpshooter always gets killed/can't chase a fleeing A class, so I'm not sure how that's even remotely close to "It should win because it fires rocketdeathbeams all the time but that's totally balanced"
As well, seeing as though both sides can actually miss in just about any situation due to other factors, and the rocketeer wont, I'd say there's a pretty large difference between the two conflicts

@Darkpulse
Maybe you should read the post I'm addressing_
The OP claimed that Rocketeers SHOULD be able to fight MULTIPLE targets AND escape on a consistent basis, and has continued to essentially claim that it should be a hard counter to A mechs

[ReachH]

Never once did I make a balance suggestion. I simply said that RoF allowed you to suppress areas easily - which in turn makes it possible to retreat from multiple targets around corners (think the streets of prosk). If my use of the word 'engage' confused you, I apologize profusely.

Our role is to play the game to its potential, not to do the devs jobs. We give feedback, not instructions.

Also I cannot understand your angry rant, are you talking about the SS or the Rocketeer_ And what are you even saying about them_

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

And yeah, I can't particularly think of a situation in which an equally skilled sharpshooter always gets killed/can't chase a fleeing A class, so I'm not sure how that's even remotely close to "It should win because it fires rocketdeathbeams all the time but that's totally balanced"
As well, seeing as though both sides can actually miss in just about any situation due to other factors, and the rocketeer wont, I'd say there's a pretty large difference between the two conflicts

[Beemann]

ReachH, on November 26 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Never once did I make a balance suggestion. I simply said that RoF allowed you to suppress areas easily - which in turn makes it possible to retreat from multiple targets around corners (think the streets of prosk). If my use of the word 'engage' confused you, I apologize profusely.

Our role is to play the game to its potential, not to do the devs jobs. We give feedback, not instructions.

Also I cannot understand your angry rant, are you talking about the SS or the Rocketeer_ And what are you even saying about them_

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

And yeah, I can't particularly think of a situation in which an equally skilled sharpshooter always gets killed/can't chase a fleeing A class, so I'm not sure how that's even remotely close to "It should win because it fires rocketdeathbeams all the time but that's totally balanced"
As well, seeing as though both sides can actually miss in just about any situation due to other factors, and the rocketeer wont, I'd say there's a pretty large difference between the two conflicts

You're arguing that the rocketeer, in its current state, is fine
In your argument, you suggest that a rocketeer should be able to counter an A mech using seekers, and that it should also be able to escape easily from multiple attackers through the use of spam
If it can do that, why can't it just melt multiple A mechs_ If it's reasonable for it to consistently escape, and it SHOULD hard counter A mechs, then it should be fairly simple for it to just destroy A mechs in groups
And my point about the sharpshooter is as follows
I havent particularly noticed any hard counters one way or the other with the ss, but ASSUMING there is one, that hard counter can still fail in its ideal fighting scenario through player error
The only way that's happening with a Seeker Rocketeer is if the pilot has fallen unconscious or gone AFK
Between the lolstunlock currently on their homing rockets, the fact that all of their weapons are autoaimed and the fact that they don't have to take burst fire or anything else into consideration to deal max DPS is absurd. Cover use is universal, and indiscriminate, seekers get blocked the same as AR's, but the AR requires some repositioning or burst fire to achieve maximum DPS
And the AR doesn't remove your ability to see the second it hits you

[fwip]

I play a Scout primarily (mini-flak, mobility specced, Detonator/Radar), and rocketeers are difficult if I don't have cover, but not too bad with it.

If there is a large cover object (think Missile Assault bases), my main strategy is generally to keep them at midrange while orbiting the cover. Their seekers and hellfires have a travel time that seems longer than my TOW, and unless they're blind-firing Hellfires, I generally don't take too much damage and gradually whittle away their health.

Of course, this only works 1v1 - if any of their teammates shows up, it becomes near impossible to hide from both, and I just turn and run.

Edit: I haven't run into many Rocketeers who fire Hellfires without locking on first, so I haven't gotten a feel for how difficult it is to avoid that.

Edited by fwip, November 26 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[ReachH]

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

You're arguing that the rocketeer, in its current state, is fine
In your argument, you suggest that a rocketeer should be able to counter an A mech using seekers, and that it should also be able to escape easily from multiple attackers through the use of spam
If it can do that, why can't it just melt multiple A mechs_ If it's reasonable for it to consistently escape, and it SHOULD hard counter A mechs, then it should be fairly simple for it to just destroy A mechs in groups
And my point about the sharpshooter is as follows
I havent particularly noticed any hard counters one way or the other with the ss, but ASSUMING there is one, that hard counter can still fail in its ideal fighting scenario through player error
The only way that's happening with a Seeker Rocketeer is if the pilot has fallen unconscious or gone AFK
Between the lolstunlock currently on their homing rockets, the fact that all of their weapons are autoaimed and the fact that they don't have to take burst fire or anything else into consideration to deal max DPS is absurd. Cover use is universal, and indiscriminate, seekers get blocked the same as AR's, but the AR requires some repositioning or burst fire to achieve maximum DPS
And the AR doesn't remove your ability to see the second it hits you

I dunno why are you pinning all these 'SHOULD's on me buddy. I never said should, just that it can (based on my impressions - which is the point of this thread: non-whiny, non-QQ, reasonable impressions on the Rocketeer).

The term 'Hard Counter' is for trading card games and RPGs. There is literally no 'Hard Counter' in Hawken. Also the seekers have 0 stunlock effect. So I have no idea what you are imagining! Also I have no idea what you are talking about Assault Rifle and burst fire. Why would you want to use burst fire in a game that has no recoil_ You have a Heat mitigation ability as Assault ffs.

By the sound of it, you play Assault. In which case I think you just need to accept you will have a harder time dealing with Rocketeers! But what do I know, I've never bothered with mine.

I hope you won't be offended if I stop replying to you now.

[Beemann]

Hellfires do. They have some sort of slight jolt or knockback effect that screws up juking. Pretty sure it's a bug, still adds to their overall ability to kill things by holding down both mouse buttons
And I thought Rocketeer was meant for A class mechs, the Assault is a B
I play a variety of mechs. Early on I played a lot of Brawler and Sharpshooter, last CB I played primarily infil and this test I've been swapping out a lot. I've played everything but Bruiser and Berserker at this point in CB3

As for the "SHOULD" stuff, in your post you suggest the Rocketeer is balanced
You also suggest that it's reasonable for it to do the things I pointed out, and point out that it CAN do those things quite consistently
Yet you're saying you never said they should be able to do that_ Care to explain_
Oh and if I can't ever be in front of the rocketeer, and it's not hard for the rocketeer to turn around and see me, how exactly is that not a hard counter_ I'm now supposed to take piddly little potshots without ever being spotted_ Why don't any other mechs work in that manner_ Why aren't they even CLOSE to that, considering the fact that they ACTUALLY REQUIRE AIM
You also don't understand how spread works on the AR, which is hilarious for someone making balance suggestions

Also reasonable impressions don't come from decrying all balance feedback as QQ, nor do they stem from not playing objective-based gamemodes whatsoever

[Lithium03]

Zyrusticae, on November 26 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Lithium03, on November 25 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

It's the 5th greatest heat generator out of 15 weapons, and due to the ability to charge the HEAT cannon, it's effectively 0, so Seeker gets bumped up to 4th greatest.

Numbers, please.

I've never seen one overheat, ever. Something is off here.

Tootlips, on every weapon. But for convenience: 11.8 hps, overheats in 8.5 seconds of non-stop fire. Why don't they always over heat_ because they don't non-stop fire, they stagger a bit to cool down between shots. Next highest is Rev-GL: 12.1hps, Mini Flak: 13.1, HEAT: 15hps(but when charging, it cools down faster than you fire, so 0-ish), Flak 16.3hps.

Though the vulcan is supposed to be less heat (11.4hps) that doesn't seem to have gone live, so it's still at 16.9hps.