61 replies to this topic

[DM30]

Edit: stupid wrong button...

Edited by DM30, December 10 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[The_Silencer]

DM30, on December 10 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

The_Silencer, on December 10 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Personally, other than slightly and softly (you notice the bolds_) nerfing the miniflak... tsk.

+1 to the slightly and softly. Most of my personal (minor) complaints from CB3 were from over-zealous "balancing" from the previous beta. Going into open beta, I hope to see more smaller changes rather than a few big ones.

Yep. I think this chassis requires real skills from pilots and, as has been said, the Scout is very fragile.

P.S. You may use the damn Like button upon a time

[Timber_Wolf]

Mini-flak needs a slight nerf, HEAT needs to go.

[Akrium]

draco7891, on December 09 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Analysis, on December 09 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

The mini flak does not have more range than the flak.

The Mini-Flak currently has an effective range of 55m, the Flak Cannon has a range of 35m.

Quote

As others have pointed out the scout is very fragile and can suffer from self inflicted TOW damage.

If you fire your TOW at sub-8m distances to your opponent, which is the explosion radius of a TOW (at full upgrade, actually 7.7m). At the more nominal 15-20m most people engage at, it's a non-issue.

The Mini-Flak does 160DPS to the Flak Cannon's 124.8DPS. Giving that kind of dichotomy the manueverability, speed, and agility of an A-Class is pure cheese, any way you slice it. Mini-Flak needs a serious rebalance. If it's supposed to be the "SMG" of the shotguns, then it needs to do less damage than a Flak, with less heat and more total damage (ie, longer firing time, but lower DPS).

Draco

You do realize the people saying the mini-flak does 160 dps is based on the idea that it never over heats right_ Because people get it due to its dps over 10 seconds and the gun over heats in a little over 7, so it could never be reached. But this is using the crappy in game numbers as well. The numbers given to use in game are not all correct. I mean if that was the case.. the tow would only do 555 damage in 3 hits and the vulcan heat issue wouldn't have still been in cbe3. So lets be realistic here. We cannot trust any stats on weapons for these closed betas unless they were generated by people in game over many iterations and proven to be true or false. This didn't happen. We don't even know what 35 meters correlated to in distance in the game.

Basically, don't base your judgement on numbers we cannot hold to be true.

The scout has 500 armor and has to get in close to be effective w/ the mini-flak. It will be only rewarding for those that can keep up the movement to stay alive via skill. But as it stands, more scouts will probably go HEAT because it is far safer to use and has more capabilities.

[Necro]

PiVoR, on December 10 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Whaaat_ Please dont nerf my Scout! Cause i wont be able to do something like this:




Well, scraw it. Nerf Scout (and rest of A classes as well) to hell, i want my SS to be viable again ;o.

Link HERE

[Decoy101x]

You touch the scout, I stab. No one wants to be stab I'm sure of it. So if you dont want me to cut you so bad that you wish I no cut you so bad, dont touch the scout.

[Beemann]

D20Face, on December 09 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

I still think the infiltrator is more powerful than the miniscoot. The HEATscoot might be the most powerful, but I never got to try it.

And people seem to forget that A classes have about half the health of C classes. They need the increased damage output to allow them to stand a chance.

The reason A classes needed to be kept away from higher damage in cb1-2 was because a large amount of the survivability gap was easily filled by optimizations. Once that was removed they became fine.

Er... how is increasing A class damage not lessening the health gap_
A classes needed to be kept away from high damage CQC weapons because its piss easy for them to choose engagements, and it only got better with the speed changes

@Akrium
DPs has nothing to do with heat

Edited by Beemann, December 10 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, on December 10 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I have no idea what DPS means but I'm gonna talk about it like I do.

[The_Silencer]

FYI,

DPS: Damage per Second.
AOE: Area of Effect.
ROF: Rate of Fire.

[Necro]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 10 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Akrium, on December 10 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I have no idea what DPS means but I'm gonna talk about it like I do.

Actually no one seems to realize that dps is theoretical because you wont ever be hitting with every pellet with sustained fire.

It's actual REAL dps is much lower in terms of use, just like every weapon in the game.

There needs to be a more accurate way, like maybe WoW's recount add-on, to actually tell what your dps is in use.

Edited by Necro, December 10 2012 - 08:59 PM.

[Beemann]

Necro what you don't seem to realize is that the max potential DPS shouldn't be obscenely high compared to the max potential DPS of other guns
Ultimately no other gun can reach 160 DPS
Period
Are you going to suggest that the mini flak is hard enough to aim optimally that a highly skilled player is going to lose over a quarter of their damage output_

[Necro]

Necro, on December 10 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 10 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Akrium, on December 10 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I have no idea what DPS means but I'm gonna talk about it like I do.

It's actual REAL dps is much lower in terms of use, just like every weapon in the game.

I never said the gun wasn't too high on dps.

I'm just saying some people need to stop relying solely on perfect condition dps numbers before they determine certain factors about a class.

There is also the argument of burst damage compared to sustained damage . You can't effectively burst with the mini-flak then take cover, the gun doesn't work like that.

A HEAT+GL user could easily have a much higher DPS number then a scout user depending on the situation because of the need for a mini-flak user to be out in the open to perform it's sustained damage. The error I feel is putting it on such a fast class that it can shorten the amount of time it's in danger of being shot. If the Mini-flak is nerfed it may then be useless on C classes but balanced on A classes.
That's just the nature of this game because weapon balance has to fit the numbers for different chassis.

It's like if WOW gave a Warrior ability to every class how would they keep it balanced for every single one while they all have other ability's that might increase it usefulness.

[PiVoR]

Funny how you say that issue with Scout is mini flak where real problem is HEAT Cannon that NEVER overheats and combined with TOW causes really ridicoulus damage, even one shots A-B mechs combined with Detonator/HE Grenade on direct hit (same goes for opfiltrator).
I never used mini flak on my Scout, it requires too many hits to actually get use of its "dps", regular Flak is much better to use with shot&dodge tactic and its better to hit once and hit hard than trying to pump dps while exposing yourself for too long.

[Karaipantsu]

PiVoR, on December 11 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

one shot A-B mechs

PiVoR, on December 11 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

HEAT Cannon combined with Detonator/HE Grenade

Edited by Karaipantsu, December 11 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Beemann]

PiVoR, on December 11 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Funny how you say that issue with Scout is mini flak where real problem is HEAT Cannon that NEVER overheats and combined with TOW causes really ridicoulus damage, even one shots A-B mechs combined with Detonator/HE Grenade on direct hit (same goes for opfiltrator).
I never used mini flak on my Scout, it requires too many hits to actually get use of its "dps", regular Flak is much better to use with shot&dodge tactic and its better to hit once and hit hard than trying to pump dps while exposing yourself for too long.

The numbers don`t agree with your "1hk" assertion (unless we're maybe using older values)
The HEAT cannon's primary issue is the lack of heat generation

TBH I find all three of the scout's primaries a bit dumb. The Flak's issues are pretty apparent for any fight club participants (IE there was a reason for Flak not being on A mechs) the Mini Flak is a bit dumb because it allows for any sort of ambush to be a guaranteed kill (remember, any complaints you have about missed damage also apply to other weapons. Unless you're implying that the mini flak is much harder to use in comparison, the damage gap will stay about where it is now, not to mention the fact that there ARE cases where optimal damage is definitely plausible)
The scout is a bit of a slap in the face for any balance considerations. It's an easy in-and-out with high burst (on basically any weapon. Remember also that if you're out of cover for 1 second against the mini flak, that's about 160 damage. If you're out of cover AND on cooldown then you've probably got another 160 before it's over. Without taking into account TOW or HE damage, that's already pretty much HE and HEAT damage in hitscan form, and you can do it more than once every 30 seconds without leading any shots), 2 weapons that need a nerf in some way and one that was a decidedly "bad thing" for A mechs ages ago
Not to mention the fact that one of the weapons that needs a nerf is basically a pre nerf vulcan with less range, but more damage and no spin-up time

[DM30]

Reading through some of these arguments, I'm getting the feeling that issues like this might not have a real solution because of how the game's designed. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks this. One of Necro's points especially got me thinking this.

Necro, on December 10 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

The error I feel is putting [mini-flak] on such a fast class that it can shorten the amount of time it's in danger of being shot. If the Mini-flak is nerfed it may then be useless on C classes but balanced on A classes.
That's just the nature of this game because weapon balance has to fit the numbers for different chassis.

I don't see how any overlap at all between weapons on A and C classes can really work for the simple reason of mobility. If a weapon like a flak is set to be 'balanced' on an A-class, then it will be underpowered on a C class because it's much harder for them to keep a target up close. The opposite applies if done the other way, where it might be fine on a C class but murderous on an A class because it can always keep an enemy in the weapon's sweet spot (I'd say this is more how it is right now). Yes, the extra fragility of the A-classes compensates a bit, but with how quickly they can jump in and out of cover or juke around to throw off the aim of a lot of players, this drawback is minimized without taking weapon power into account.

I'd argue that until we get more weapon separation between the classes, problems like this will always exist. Ideally I would like to see two entirely new versions of the flak (such as "light flak" and "light auto-flak") to go on A-classes that aren't quite so devastating at point-blank range, while leaving the current iterations as they are for exclusive use on C-classes (and maybe B-classes as 20 unlocks or something), but I know that might be a bit much to ask.

[Beemann]

Except pretty much every other weapon works this way (C classes don't have a heavy SMC, just an SMC, same goes for HEAT, Vulcan etc)
The only exceptions are weapons that just don't go on A classes, which used to include Vulcans and Flaks, and is now basically limited to Hellfires, Slug, Hawkins and Sabot (unless we're counting all the one-off weapons, like Seekers and the Rev-GL, and I doubt Slug, Hawkins and Sabot will stay off of A mechs)

[Karaipantsu]

I doubt Sabot will end up on A class mechs.  Slug, maybe, and Hawkins definitely, though.  Imagine a Sabot/Heat combo A-class, which already dictates when and where encounters happen, engaging at 200 meters.  That would be awful.

EDIT:  come to think of it, Hawkins/TOW may be a good alternate setup for the Scout, rather than MF.  Hawkins does some decent damage at short/mid range, but the heat is something that has to be managed.  It'd be a good match for the TOW.

Edited by Karaipantsu, December 11 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[DM30]

Beemann, on December 11 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Except pretty much every other weapon works this way (C classes don't have a heavy SMC, just an SMC, same goes for HEAT, Vulcan etc)
The only exceptions are weapons that just don't go on A classes, which used to include Vulcans and Flaks, and is now basically limited to Hellfires, Slug, Hawkins and Sabot (unless we're counting all the one-off weapons, like Seekers and the Rev-GL, and I doubt Slug, Hawkins and Sabot will stay off of A mechs)

That is true, but I would argue that range isn't quite as large of a factor on those weapons (with maybe the exception of the SMC, but unless I'm mistaken that's not even on C-classes(_) And it seems to be consensus already that the Vulcan doesn't go on A's, unless they made a "light" version of that too). HEAT rounds travel fast enough that I wouldn't call range a tremendous factor in them either, although getting the most damage out of them is quite likely easier done up close (don't know, haven't used them). I'd argue similarly for TOW, in that their damage is the same at any range, it's just easier to hit up close. So, amending what I said before, I still say that we need distinctive class separation on weapons where range is a significant factor in damage. And using a "Don't put it on an A-class" logic would basically scrap the scout as a mech entirely as it is now, so that seems like a less than ideal solution.

[D20Face]

Beemann, on December 10 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Er... how is increasing A class damage not lessening the health gap_
A classes needed to be kept away from high damage CQC weapons because its piss easy for them to choose engagements, and it only got better with the speed changes

If the A class does both less damage and has less health then a person using it will never get kills unless the opponent is significantly worse.

With the optimization nerfs they lost 220 health points. That's almost 33%.

Losing all that health hit the survivability of A classes hard enough that they will die in a 5 second engagement against any class should the enemy hit both secondary shots.

They need to be able to kill people in at least a somewhat similar amount of time.

Edited by D20Face, December 11 2012 - 12:28 PM.