229 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Now you're just nitpicking.  They spiral a little, but they still follow the same accuracy spread algorithm as every other weapon, i.e. they will hit somewhere within their acceptable spread limits directly at the termination of their flight based on distance.  Matter of fact, the only weapons that don't follow this formula are the Hellfire and Seeker when they're homing, and the grenades with their arcing flight path.  I'm not even sure dumbfire seekers follow this pattern, because their flight path starts large and ends either smaller thru a narrowing flight path even larger at the capriciousness of chance.

Except the variation in direction is either A. due to lock-on (which means it's something automated) or B: due to RNG (which is something the player has no control over)
Nope, not seeing how that presents a better skill curve than figuring out the corkscrew of a TOW and learning to direct hit with it in more difficult situations

[Karaipantsu]

Because the spin is pretty tight, and doesn't send your missile flying off course in any appreciable manner.  If you point your TOW at a mech that's relatively nearby and he's silly enough to not dodge, you're gonna hit him even if you don't account for the corkscrew flight.  If he DOES dodge, you miss because you didn't predict his movement properly, and that's no on the weapon's spread pattern.  You could certainly argue the range bullseye is difficult, and it is, but that's the same of any weapon that isn't the Sabot.

The TOW is definitely a straight shot weapon, despite it's little oddities.  The spiral doesn't affect your shot enough to really matter.

[Beemann]

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Because the spin is pretty tight, and doesn't send your missile flying off course in any appreciable manner.  If you point your TOW at a mech that's relatively nearby and he's silly enough to not dodge, you're gonna hit him even if you don't account for the corkscrew flight.  If he DOES dodge, you miss because you didn't predict his movement properly, and that's no on the weapon's spread pattern.  You could certainly argue the range bullseye is difficult, and it is, but that's the same of any weapon that isn't the Sabot.

The TOW is definitely a straight shot weapon, despite it's little oddities.  The spiral doesn't affect your shot enough to really matter.

The thing you're complaining about is consistency and reliability, which is something that adds to a learning curve
Random weapons = no learning required
Lock-on weapons = very little learning required
Weapons that only hit if you make them hit = decent amount of learning
Weapons that fire projectiles (read: not hitscan) = lots of learning

Edited by Beemann, December 20 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Karaipantsu]

I think you could ague that the TOW requires more skill at extreme ranges, while the HF requires a lot of luck at close range.  I still maintain that there's more finesse to be squeezed out of the Hellfires than the TOW.

[Beemann]

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

finesse

Mind explaining how a lockon weapon with RNG'd missiles requires more finesse than something that requires actual aiming_

[XenoMorph]

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

I think you could ague that the TOW requires more skill at extreme ranges, while the HF requires a lot of luck at close range.  I still maintain that there's more finesse to be squeezed out of the Hellfires than the TOW.

I remember when I forgot how to aim.

[Aelieth]

I love my hellfires. My primary mech is the Bruiser and learning to properly use your lock-on and the hellfires is important. The hellfires can be shot off at distance without the lock on, so they can be used like TOWs without the ability to explode them at will. You can still pelt an area with them, or fire them at an enemy that may come around the corner.

The lock-on can also be used against targets that you notice dodge. Soon as they are dodging, you fire. Playing against normal people, then moving and playing against AJK, Xeno, h0B0, Beemann, and a slew of other awesome people taught me that my hellfires MUST be timed. I was blowing the A mechs up though, because I would wait for them to dash and then fire them at the right time.

Still have much to learn, but there is no problem with them in my book. The TOW has its strenghts and the Hellfires has its own as well.

Another thought: I have not tested it, but it seems the further away an enemy is, the longer it takes for the lock-on to occur. This is especially true with the battleships. I can hit lock-on and it will take almost the entire time the sight spins to actually lock onto the ship at long range.

[Karaipantsu]

Beemann, on December 20 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

finesse

Mind explaining how a lockon weapon with RNG'd missiles requires more finesse than something that requires actual aiming_

Corner shots. That's been the crux of my argument from the beginning.  Learning to throw rockets around corners or over obstacles is an awesome skill that requires practice and patience in dealing with dropped locks all the damn time.  

Basically, the bruiser is the only mech besides the Grenadier that can deal "full" damage from out of LOS.

Also, get that Inigo Montoya fuzzy bunny outta here.  I know what I mean.

Edited by Karaipantsu, December 20 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[Karaipantsu]

Aelieth, on December 20 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Another thought: I have not tested it, but it seems the further away an enemy is, the longer it takes for the lock-on to occur. This is especially true with the battleships. I can hit lock-on and it will take almost the entire time the sight spins to actually lock onto the ship at long range.

Don't lockon the BS.  It's a big enough target and you should know how to lead well enough that you can peg the engines from a reasonable distance with the whole volley.

[KoreanDoggyDog]

As a Bruiser Pilot, I disagree. Timing and knowing when to use it.

[Beemann]

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Corner shots. That's been the crux of my argument from the beginning.  Learning to throw rockets around corners is an awesome skill that requires practice and patience in dealing with dropped locks all the damn time.  

Also, get that Inigo Montoya fuzzy bunny outta here.  I know what I mean.

Except that's not really finesse, and it doesn't take much to learn how to do it (though your ability to do it is kinda gimped due to the RNG anyway). As well, an edgecase shot doesn't make up for the complete lack of learning curve elsewhere
You can also hit people around corners with the TOW, and you can learn to spiral it around obstacles as well. New players can start out with splash hits, either from midair detonation or from hitting the ground or a wall near the target. Better players can snipe with the TOW, hit people around corners and spin it around terrain

[Timber_Wolf]

So, I haven't read the entire thread, but here's my take on it, coming from someone who's used the hellfires since alpha, and regularly plays with some of the better players.

First, the damage on the hellfires is alright, imo, the TOW is better, but the hellfires have the lock on at long range, and dumbfired rockets at close range are guaranteed small damage.  The biggest thing that they do, is the stunlock and stopping your enemies from moving, currently, which allows your primary and your teammates to rip them apart.  HOWEVER, because stunlock isn't very fun, and hopefully gets changed, this would make the hellfires much worse, and something would probably be needed to buff them, honestly.

Secondly, there does seem to be a lower skill cap for hellfires than the TOW or the GL.  There's some skill required, sure, like knowing when to dumbfire, how to fire to curve around corners, how to compensate for fire delay etc., but I feel there's only so good you can get with the hellfire as opposed to the other alternates.  The hellfire still work at higher level play, just not as well I feel.  Dodging hellfire isn't that hard outside of long range, and then you probably have cover and it is still dodge-able.  It works fantastic against newbies cause it's easy to use, but in higher level play not so much.  This is the biggest problem I feel with it.  

The suggestion beemann offered on HL2 style tracking does solve some problems, sure, but it removes the ability to aim around corners (to an extent, if  the enemy is behind cover you could fire it past the wall and move the laser sight to the wall to have them curve, which is harder to do than with the current system) or fire above hills and have them wrap around to the ground which I feel is important.  I do think it works excellently as a sidegrade option too.

First, remove some RNG (this goes for other weapons too, such as the flak)
Second, kill the delay, it makes it significantly harder to play peek-a-boo, right now trying to do it results in half your missiles slamming into the wall in front of you
Third, the option of HL2 style tracking as a sidegrade opens up more possibilities, BUT, I'd like it to be optional when using it.  Replace middle mouse button lock-on with the laser sight as a toggle so that dumbfiring can be done when needed so I dont have to worry about rockets turning when I'm playing peek-a-boo.

Those changes create a reliable, higher skill weapon and leaves the hellfires as they are for people who like them as is, I feel.

It's late, I used too many commas, I had another idea for another kind of tracking, and I forgot... it's too late to be posting

Edited by Timber_Wolf, December 20 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[RedVan]

Beemann, on December 20 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

finesse

Mind explaining how a lockon weapon with RNG'd missiles requires more finesse than something that requires actual aiming_

HF locking is susceptible to locking on the wrong target when in groups, thus potentially not killing an enemy that can then continue to be a threat.

HF has spread.  Depending on range, not all of your projectiles will hit.  This is a big difference when considering close range.  Even if aiming directly at someone, you still could miss 50% of the projectiles.  TOW on the other hand will go directly where you want it, 100% damage.

TOW really isn't hard to aim and/or use.

TOW has remote det that rewards missing.

I played Fallen Empire: Legions for many years, it's a Tribes like game, but higher skill due to much more maneuverability.  There was a point in time where they had a Rocket Launcher Specialist.  The RLS special feature was that you could manually detonate your rockets.  It took much skill out of the game as people were no longer required to actually hit a mid air shot.  You simply had to be, close enough.  We quickly got that changed so that you cannot manually detonate it, for the sake of skill

HF isn't underpowered in its current state, it's just that the TOW is too easy to use for the amount of damage it deals.  Either reduce the damage, or make it harder to use somehow.

[Deu]

All this talk about firing HFM at close range is gonna start bugging me. Really if you are in CQC as a rocketeer you just have bad game mechanics. That's all! You know your own weakness and advantages but still continue play COD style face plant into people and fire.

[Beemann]

RedVan, on December 20 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

HF locking is susceptible to locking on the wrong target when in groups, thus potentially not killing an enemy that can then continue to be a threat.

HF has spread.  Depending on range, not all of your projectiles will hit.  This is a big difference when considering close range.  Even if aiming directly at someone, you still could miss 50% of the projectiles.  TOW on the other hand will go directly where you want it, 100% damage.

TOW really isn't hard to aim and/or use.

TOW has remote det that rewards missing.

I played Fallen Empire: Legions for many years, it's a Tribes like game, but higher skill due to much more maneuverability.  There was a point in time where they had a Rocket Launcher Specialist.  The RLS special feature was that you could manually detonate your rockets.  It took much skill out of the game as people were no longer required to actually hit a mid air shot.  You simply had to be, close enough.  We quickly got that changed so that you cannot manually detonate it, for the sake of skill

HF isn't underpowered in its current state, it's just that the TOW is too easy to use for the amount of damage it deals.  Either reduce the damage, or make it harder to use somehow.

1. The same issue with lockon can be said for any aimed weapon. Trying to hit one person in a group of people will ultimately deal splash damage to your intended target, but there's an equal chance of hitting the wrong guy with any weapon
2. RNG doesn't add to the learning curve. A skilled player and a complete newbie are just as susceptible to RNG
3. Protip: Less damage is not a reward
4. The TOW's unnecessarily buffed damage has nothing to do with the learning curve. Do you even know what the discussion is about_

[RedVan]

Beemann, on December 20 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

RedVan, on December 20 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

HF locking is susceptible to locking on the wrong target when in groups, thus potentially not killing an enemy that can then continue to be a threat.

HF has spread.  Depending on range, not all of your projectiles will hit.  This is a big difference when considering close range.  Even if aiming directly at someone, you still could miss 50% of the projectiles.  TOW on the other hand will go directly where you want it, 100% damage.

TOW really isn't hard to aim and/or use.

TOW has remote det that rewards missing.

I played Fallen Empire: Legions for many years, it's a Tribes like game, but higher skill due to much more maneuverability.  There was a point in time where they had a Rocket Launcher Specialist.  The RLS special feature was that you could manually detonate your rockets.  It took much skill out of the game as people were no longer required to actually hit a mid air shot.  You simply had to be, close enough.  We quickly got that changed so that you cannot manually detonate it, for the sake of skill

HF isn't underpowered in its current state, it's just that the TOW is too easy to use for the amount of damage it deals.  Either reduce the damage, or make it harder to use somehow.

1. The same issue with lockon can be said for any aimed weapon. Trying to hit one person in a group of people will ultimately deal splash damage to your intended target, but there's an equal chance of hitting the wrong guy with any weapon

Yes, but with TOW, you don't need to wait for any lock to get optimal targeting.  It's a much quicker solution, and much more precise, even with a chance of hitting the wrong person.  Besides, I'd much rather hit the wrong person with 100% damage, than hit a few people with a little damage.  It's better to make one person run to heal than watch a group of people not care about taking a little bit of damage.

Quote

2. RNG doesn't add to the learning curve. A skilled player and a complete newbie are just as susceptible to RNG

RNG_  Range_

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3. Protip: Less damage is not a reward

It sure as hell is when the other option is 0 damage.  fuzzy bunny, I wish I had a weapon this easy to use in many a game!

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4. The TOW's unnecessarily buffed damage has nothing to do with the learning curve. Do you even know what the discussion is about_

The discussion is about the OP thinking the HF needs a buff, which is not true.  The HF is fine.  The TOW is simply easier to use and does more damage.  That is where the current biggest balance problem lies in hawken.

To think that the TOW has a learning curve at any level that would be considered hard is a fallacy.  The lead required is minimal at mid range, it's huge splash, it remote detonates, and does a fuzzy bunny ton of damage.

Most games I abhor lock on in, for example, MWLL.  But in hawken where movement can outpace lockon, it's much easier to use a TOW to pick off people dodging in and out of cover.  When you have to wait for a lock every time they dodge out of cover, you're only decreasing the total damage you could be doing to them.  And even with the HF dumbfire, it's still not necessarily 100% damage with a good hit, unless you're point blank.

So in comparison between how much finesse is required for the amount of damage dealt, the HF does take more "finesse" to use.

[Omega22]

yea please show us how to use the hfm and post videos showing in game battles with mechs at level 10 and above,,, i wana see how its done

as a mech , i want to fire and hit something .. not shoot and pray and hope for luck that the hfm make contact. you just cannot go face to face with other mechs , they will shred ur health in seconds... this mech bruiser and hfm is only good at as a artilary support mech...

i am really disgusted with myself for buying this bruiser junk mech... and i was complaing about the assualt mech wen infact the assault mech is a fantastic mech to play with . what a dumb needle dik i am

theses missles are a joke

[Colin23]

The Hellfire works fine, I have gotten many a kill with it in my rocketeer, but it is clearly a long range weapon. No wonder you are having trouble with it up close.

[ScHizNiK]

Hellfires are slow moving so they take quite a lead, the way they bunch means that its easy to hit most of the missiles when you dumb-fire them in close range. You also have to aim twice, once for each rocket volley.

If you get this down they destroy people up close. I don't lock most of my shots and I think its funny when I get into cqc with another bruiser and they take the time to lock each lot of hell-fires, they always die before they get to lock and shoot a second time.

[Zyrusticae]

Deu, on December 20 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

All this talk about firing HFM at close range is gonna start bugging me. Really if you are in CQC as a rocketeer you just have bad game mechanics. That's all! You know your own weakness and advantages but still continue play COD style face plant into people and fire.

Except I play a bruiser that is meant to engage in both medium-long range and up-close. Just ignoring the existence of my secondary in CQB isn't exactly going to win me any matches.

I want someone to record a Youtube video of them hitting a skilled A-class player with dumbfired Hellfires, because I'm seeing a whole lot of talk here that doesn't match up with what seems to be reality.