229 replies to this topic

[Juodvarnis]

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

I went 24/6 with my level 2 brawler last night.  Hellfires are hardly that bad, mang.  Went up 3 levels from that match, too.  

Was the enemy team braindead, AFK or both_

[Karaipantsu]

Neither, I'm just a beast with missiles.  That's actually a little better than I usual do with Fred (usually 3 or 4:1 KDR).

[Juodvarnis]

So i'll assume that they were both braindead and AFK.

Edited by Juodvarnis, December 20 2012 - 08:16 AM.

[Zyrusticae]

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

I went 24/6 with my level 2 brawler last night.  Hellfires are hardly that bad, mang.  Went up 3 levels from that match, too.  

So_

A good player can do well against terrible opponents with the worst available mech and weapons in the game. That doesn't mean anything other than that the gulf in skill between those players is bloody enormous.

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

You know saying the hellfires are the highest burst damage in contest to my claim that they deal the most damage is saying the same thing, right_  A full blast of Hellfires is 30% damage more than a single TOW round, and it really isn't that hard to connect with.  They're also far FAR less heat per round than the TOW.  And they can be dumbfired, just like they were a tow.  You're going to connect with most of the rockets if your aim is good, and that's a boatload of damage.

Burst damage doesn't matter unless you can kill your target within one volley (it falls behind in DPS by the second shot as the TOW will have already fired 3 shots by then). The low heat is the only thing they have going for them.

And you can't hit a moving target with dumbfired Hellfires. Now I know you were playing against unskilled opponents, because no skilled player will ever get hit by those incredibly slow rockets.

[RedVan]

Zyrusticae, on December 20 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

I went 24/6 with my level 2 brawler last night.  Hellfires are hardly that bad, mang.  Went up 3 levels from that match, too.  

So_

A good player can do well against terrible opponents with the worst available mech and weapons in the game. That doesn't mean anything other than that the gulf in skill between those players is bloody enormous.

This is true.

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Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

You know saying the hellfires are the highest burst damage in contest to my claim that they deal the most damage is saying the same thing, right_  A full blast of Hellfires is 30% damage more than a single TOW round, and it really isn't that hard to connect with.  They're also far FAR less heat per round than the TOW.  And they can be dumbfired, just like they were a tow.  You're going to connect with most of the rockets if your aim is good, and that's a boatload of damage.

Burst damage doesn't matter unless you can kill your target within one volley (it falls behind in DPS by the second shot as the TOW will have already fired 3 shots by then). The low heat is the only thing they have going for them.

Nah, TOW wont have 3 shots off in the time of 2 hell slavos.

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And you can't hit a moving target with dumbfired Hellfires. Now I know you were playing against unskilled opponents, because no skilled player will ever get hit by those incredibly slow rockets.

It is much harder to hit a moving target with dumbfired hell, due to the spread, a dodging opponent could get hit with anywhere from one projectile to the full load.  TOW, on the other hand, you don't even need to hit your target to do damage.

The problem here isn't really that the hellfire is underpowered, the problem is that the TOW is overpowered.  This is the biggest issue involved with other mechs feeling underpowered.

Honestly, if hellfire were any more powerful, I'd feel dirty using it (kinda how I feel when I use recruit)

[Zyrusticae]

RedVan, on December 20 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Nah, TOW wont have 3 shots off in the time of 2 hell slavos.

Huh_ This is factually incorrect.

Hellfire rockets have a firing rate of 0.2 per second (one salvo every 5 seconds). The TOW has a firing rate of 0.3 per second (one shot every 3 1/3 seconds). That means that, within 10 seconds, a Hellfire will let loose two salvos whereas a TOW will have fired 3, assuming both let the trigger loose as soon as they were available (in truth, this is unlikely as the Hellfire user will probably also take time to try to get a lock on the target, making it even more in the TOW user's favor).

RedVan, on December 20 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

It is much harder to hit a moving target with dumbfired hell, due to the spread, a dodging opponent could get hit with anywhere from one projectile to the full load.  TOW, on the other hand, you don't even need to hit your target to do damage.

The problem here isn't really that the hellfire is underpowered, the problem is that the TOW is overpowered.  This is the biggest issue involved with other mechs feeling underpowered.

Honestly, if hellfire were any more powerful, I'd feel dirty using it (kinda how I feel when I use recruit)

That may indeed be the case. I haven't used the other secondaries (grenade launcher and SABOT rifle), so I don't know how well they hold up against the TOW.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Zyrusticae, on December 20 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

RedVan, on December 20 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Nah, TOW wont have 3 shots off in the time of 2 hell slavos.

Huh_ This is factually incorrect.

Hellfire rockets have a firing rate of 0.2 per second (one salvo every 5 seconds). The TOW has a firing rate of 0.3 per second (one shot every 3 1/3 seconds). That means that, within 10 seconds, a Hellfire will let loose two salvos whereas a TOW will have fired 3, assuming both let the trigger loose as soon as they were available (in truth, this is unlikely as the Hellfire user will probably also take time to try to get a lock on the target, making it even more in the TOW user's favor).

Just an FYI, those numbers are outdated, I wouldn't quote them as fact.
I'm currently working on getting new, more accurate numbers to the community. However, since they removed all the stats in favor of graphical representation, we (the testers who NotKjell recruited) are having to do agonizing manual tests on everything from damage, RoF (a fuzzy bunny on high RoF weapons), to blast radius and other such things.

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RedVan, on December 20 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

It is much harder to hit a moving target with dumbfired hell, due to the spread, a dodging opponent could get hit with anywhere from one projectile to the full load.  TOW, on the other hand, you don't even need to hit your target to do damage.

The problem here isn't really that the hellfire is underpowered, the problem is that the TOW is overpowered.  This is the biggest issue involved with other mechs feeling underpowered.

Honestly, if hellfire were any more powerful, I'd feel dirty using it (kinda how I feel when I use recruit)

That may indeed be the case. I haven't used the other secondaries (grenade launcher and SABOT rifle), so I don't know how well they hold up against the TOW.

The GL and Sabot hold up quite well in their respective roles.

[Phaaze]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 20 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Just an FYI, those numbers are outdated, I wouldn't quote them as fact.
I'm currently working on getting new, more accurate numbers to the community. However, since they removed all the stats in favor of graphical representation, we (the testers who NotKjell recruited) are having to do agonizing manual tests on everything from damage, RoF (a fuzzy bunny on high RoF weapons), to blast radius and other such things.

Two things:
I'll put a note at the top of the page that numbers are out of date.

Also looking forward to your test results

[Karaipantsu]

Zyrusticae, on December 20 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

A good player can do well against terrible opponents with the worst available mech and weapons in the game. That doesn't mean anything other than that the gulf in skill between those players is bloody enormous.

The score wasn't my point.  I felt the performance of the Bruiser with Vulc/Hellfires was comparable to the performance of Fred with SMC/TOW against a wide variety of players.  Not EVERYONE is awful, and while I'm not always facing off against the likes of AJK, BuDeKi, and Beeman, neither am I always facing off against total scrubs.

The Hellfires may have a steeper learning curve than TOWs, and their lack of airburst gives the TOW the edge in overall utility, but I'd hardly call Hellfires "terrible" as they are currently.  I can only imagine they'll be even better when I get to that +10% homing upgrade.  Their huge burst damage matches up nicely against the Vulc's spray and pray mentality and damage capacity.  And don't forget, DPS don't mean jack squat in real world circumstances; TOWs are even easier to dodge than Hellfires, especially out past medium range encounters.  You can only do as much damage as you can connect with.

[Beemann]

Karaipantsu, on December 20 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

The Hellfires may have a steeper learning curve than TOWs

No they don't
They're easier to use, and thus their effectiveness has been capped off

The hellfires are terrible once you take out the stunlock bug. They're inconsistent and unreliable for the user, and for the person you use them against, the damage is only avoidable at certain ranges, or if you have cover handy

TBH though, the TOW is the worst weapon to compare it to, as the damage on it is too high at the moment

[Crewl]

Tow pwng ftw

[Karaipantsu]

Beemann, on December 20 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

No they don't
They're easier to use, and thus their effectiveness has been capped off

TOWs are straight line dumbfire missiles with an airburst function; fire, and then hit or don't.  Hellfires have the lock on function that can allow you to bend missiles around corners and over objects, have a reasonably predictable traversal arc for homing, and have a... uh.. unique, let's say, spread pattern.  I'd certainly call that more of a learning curve than TOWs.

If there's more to a weapon than straight fire, it's got a learning curve.  The more options it gives you, the larger the learning curve to become effective with it.

I do agree that they're inconsistent, though.  Annoyingly so, sometimes.  I especially don't like the spread, but it has its uses.  If you completely whiff with a TOW, that's all you get.  You're waiting on reload.  If you whiff with hellfires, their bonkers fire pattern randomly lands you a chance of hitting once, especially if you're firing down on your target.  It's like a rocket shotgun.

[Beemann]

Protip: TOW`s don`t travel in a straight line

[Juodvarnis]

Also TOW doesn't have a consistent projectile speed, instead it starts of slow and accelerates, adding more skill to the equation.

[Karaipantsu]

Now you're just nitpicking.  They spiral a little, but they still follow the same accuracy spread algorithm as every other weapon, i.e. they will hit somewhere within their acceptable spread limits directly at the termination of their flight based on distance.  Matter of fact, the only weapons that don't follow this formula are the Hellfire and Seeker when they're homing, and the grenades with their arcing flight path.  I'm not even sure dumbfire seekers follow this pattern, because their flight path starts large and ends either smaller thru a narrowing flight path even larger at the capriciousness of chance.

[Viruts]

i like the hfm the way they are, if im not mistaken in your gurage it tells you the dificulty of each mech. fred has 2/5 stars while the brusser has 4/5 stars. if thats not a learning curve then ive been miss informed. you say its harder to hit with the hfm becaus of the spread...i didnt know shotguns missed so much. less damage but still a hit. ive played matches where im mvp because of proper use of the hfm and no they wernt aces by far but they wernt derps ether. the hfm is just more specalized than the TOE and takes some geting use to.(gets off soap box)

i would rant some more but alass ive only used the TOE and hfm side arms so it isnt my place to judge them

[ScHizNiK]

Hellfire good Op bad!

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

walls of txt i didn't read.

the rocketter is a long range mech. It isn't ment for close range brawling. its fine.

[Geary]

Just saying, if a weapon is balanced on the basis that it's only useful against people who don't know how to play, then it's not balanced. IIRC, two mechs use Hellfire. This means that two mechs are nearly useless against skilled opponents due to their lack of a useful secondary weapon, and certainly aren't going to win any 1v1s at any range unless the opponent is AFK.

[Peddie]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 20 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Just an FYI, those numbers are outdated, I wouldn't quote them as fact.
I'm currently working on getting new, more accurate numbers to the community. However, since they removed all the stats in favor of graphical representation, we (the testers who NotKjell recruited) are having to do agonizing manual tests on everything from damage, RoF (a fuzzy bunny on high RoF weapons), to blast radius and other such things.

Then clearly the devs need to put the numbers back into the game. Like Totalbiscuit says, the more information you can get the better it is for the community. These discussions would be easier to have if the game provided us with solid information about damage output, firing intervals, and so on. I'm not a fan of the current representation of the stats of the guns at all. "Four blocks on range, all right, but what is four blocks_"

And as an aside, I honestly wouldn't dismiss someone's opinion about a mech or weapon just because you think it's fine. Just because it plays right into your niche or preferences doesn't mean it is suitable for every player out there. Or useful in competitive play. In TF2 pubs you'll see people who can be deadly with, oh, Natascha, but most, if not all competitive Heavy players stick to Sasha.  Which just adds another layer to the discussion of whether a weapon is over- or underpowered or just right.

Which again, is where accurate numerical values about the properties of the weapons in-game would be great. Especially considering we are presented with percentages and stats when levelling up our mechs. 0.3 extra shots per second might sound great, but what am I improving from_ If I fire one round per second that's a 30% increase, but if I fire three rounds per second it's "merely" a 10% increase.

Edited by Peddie, December 20 2012 - 08:51 PM.