62 replies to this topic

[ShadowWarg]

The HellFire thread seems to be getting a lot of opinions, so I thought I would bring up (again) what seems to be the worst weapon in then game. (Yes, worse than the HellFire. At least people use that. Depending on your skill level your actually good with it.)

I am talking about the EOC Repeater.

I have a better understanding of the gun after watching a poor soul try and use it during a match. My final impression of it was that its a really bad sticky grenade launcher. Forget the whole "mine laying" thing, because the projectiles that stick to surfaces last for such a short period of time, they can't even be called mines.

Threads in the past about the EOC have made many suggestions, but the more I think about it, the more I come to realize, that none of these suggestions, except for one, helps the EOC without changing what the gun was seemingly designed to be; a mine layer.

The most notable suggestions to me and how they change the EOC:

1) Increase the duration that the mines stay before they explode or make them permanent AND increase the splash damage radius.
(This would pretty much leave the EOC as it was intended to be.)

2) Increase the projectile's speed
(If everything else is left the same, this would turn it into a burst shot assault gun with explosive rounds. Think Halo Battle Riffle but with exploding bullets.)

3) Make the projectiles explode if an enemy is within the blast radius; both in mid flight and attached to a surface.
(If everything else is left the same, this would turn the projectiles into flying proximity bombs (air-burst bombs) and function more like a crowd control weapon much like the Rev-GL.) (My personal favorite suggestion.)

My point is I don't think the EOC can be saved without changing the guns identity.

Edited by ShadowWarg, February 10 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

So hang on a second here, have you or have you not tried the EOC yourself_

[ShadowWarg]

Sorry to say only in CB (even then I had a hard time using it). That doesn't stop me from noticing how the gun works by watching others use it during matches though. No one uses the gun and though who do use it, don't score very high. I'm only stating my opinion based off observation. (At least I'm honest)

Edited by ShadowWarg, January 25 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[andythebomb]

I gotta say the heat cannon out shines the eoc in about every way.

I don't think anyone would cry OP if we got a eoc buff.

[PlagueDoctor]

Itt people that are bad with EOC

Edited by PlagueDoctor, January 25 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[fwip]

I haven't used it since the heat got reduced yesterday, but I think it's perfectly salvageable. I would like to see a larger radius on mine detonation, and perhaps longer duration. I don't think that changes the gun's identity, though.

[Conquistador]

.... I LOVE the EOC. Especially on infiltrator. It gives the infiltrator a great hybrid role of directed fire support against heavy targets, and also makes it the deadliest ambush predator in the game: an invisible eoc infiltrator will instagib damaged Mechs repairing too close to the battlefield, when used in conjunction with He grenades and the GL.

When utilized in conjunction with an excellent team, it can be absolutely devastating. Perhaps the person you were watching doesn't know how to properly aim it_

I did like how you compared the Hellfires, the easiest weapon in the game to aim but the most unlikely to hit, with the EOC, the hardest weapon in the game to aim but the most likely to hit if aimed properly.

They're practically on opposite ends of the skill scale, with the Hellfires having a low skill floor and low skill ceiling, whereas the eoc has one of the highest skill floor/ceiling combinations in the game. We need to distinguish newbie-friendly auto-tracking  weapons with terrible hit capacity from extremely difficult (but extremely rewarding) direct fire support weapons that actually require a substantial amount of aim and prediction. Timing is everything on the EOC, and if you don't lead properly, you won't connect.

In short: just because he can't aim it doesn't mean it's a terrible weapon. The heat reduction actually made it incredibly viable now. Granted, HEAT will always be better in duels, but I would like to see EOC used in competitive team fights.

Edited by Conquistador, January 30 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[RedVan]

The only problem with the EOC prior to this patch was the heat.  I haven't tested it with new heat values, but as far as damage goes, it's got one of the highest damage outputs in the game.  It just requires a skilled user.

[Sylhiri]

Conquistador, on January 25 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

In short: just because he can't aim it doesn't mean it's a terrible weapon. The heat reduction actually made it incredibly viable now. Granted, HEAT will always be better in duels, but I would like to see EOC used in competitive team fights.

It's not really the aiming part. Sharpshooters need to aim but their bullets are pretty much hitscan. The EOC you need to aim and time your shots even in close quarters and that kind of relies on the enemy and it's not reliable enough to use in competitive matches, not even support. It's fantastic for ambushes but I can't say I could disagree with a mine buff as it is a secondary function of the weapon rather then only using the direct hit shots.

I do hope to see interesting techniques when paired with the Detonator though.

Edited by Sylhiri, January 25 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[Conquistador]

Sylhiri, on January 25 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Conquistador, on January 25 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

In short: just because he can't aim it doesn't mean it's a terrible weapon. The heat reduction actually made it incredibly viable now. Granted, HEAT will always be better in duels, but I would like to see EOC used in competitive team fights.

It's not really the aiming part. Sharpshooters need to aim but their bullets are pretty much hitscan. The EOC you need to aim and time your shots even in close quarters and that kind of relies on the enemy and it's not reliable enough to use in competitive matches, not even support. It's fantastic for ambushes but I can't say I could disagree with a mine buff as it is a secondary function of the weapon rather then only using the direct hit shots.

I do hope to see interesting techniques when paired with the Detonator though.

Predictive aim is still aim. Eoc requires a substantially different type of aim from other weapons. It's like a double prediction of sorts, which is where the challenge lies.

The weapon has its niche, to be sure, but any further buffs and it ceases to become a situational side grade and becomes a direct upgrade to AR or HEAT, and I'm certain we'd rather not go down that route.

I do see the challenge behind needing to lead your shots before you fire, then immediately needing to re-lead/re-orient your shots in the split-seconds after you fire. But the challenge is a necessary evil, because the weapon has the potential to do as much damage as a secondary if used successfully. Heat reduction also made partial charged shots viable, because now you don't overheat immediately when firing the weapon as fast as possible, which gives it some application in close quarters combat.

I'm pretty sure the eoc repeater is fantastic as a team fight support weapon, too, seeing as it has plenty of success against slower heavy Mechs with their large hit boxes and slow movement. In fact, the weapon really shines in infiltrator vs heavy Mech matchups.

Edited by Conquistador, January 25 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[ShadowWarg]

Conquistador, on January 25 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

.... I LOVE the EOC. Especially on infiltrator. It gives the infiltrator a great hybrid role of directed fire support against heavy targets, and also makes it the deadliest ambush predator in the game: an invisible eoc infiltrator will instagib damaged Mechs repairing too close to the battlefield, when used in conjunction with He grenades and the GL.

When utilized in conjunction with an excellent team, it can be absolutely devastating. Perhaps the person you were watching doesn't know how to properly aim it_

I did like how you compared the Hellfires, the easiest weapon in the game to aim but the most unlikely to hit, with the EOC, the hardest weapon in the game to aim but the most likely to hit if aimed properly.

They're practically on opposite ends of the skill scale, with the Hellfires having a low skill  and low skill ceiling, whereas the eoc has one of the highest skill floor/ceiling combinations in the game. We need to distinguish newbie-friendly auto-tracking  weapons with terrible hit capacity from extremely difficult (but extremely rewarding) direct fire support weapons that actually require a substantial amount of aim and prediction. Timing is everything on the EOC, and if you don't lead properly, you won't connect.

In short: just because he can't aim it doesn't mean it's a terrible weapon. The heat reduction actually made it incredibly viable now. Granted, HEAT will always be better in duels, but I would like to see EOC used in competitive team fights.

My apologies and yes you could be absolutely right. Then let me rephrase this question. Is there a way to make it more accessible to more players rather than the select few_

[Sylhiri]

Conquistador, on January 25 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the eoc repeater is fantastic as a team fight support weapon, too, seeing as it has plenty of success against slower heavy Mechs with their large hit boxes and slow movement. In fact, the weapon really shines in infiltrator vs heavy Mech matchups.

Well from my experience in the tournament since most of any damage around s2 was moving slightly to the right/left, firing burst weapons and sliding back into cover, any chance of hitting them was about two seconds before they moved to the right or left. Any C classes also dodged behind a lot of cover, any attempt to try to finish them off was met with 4 TOWs to the face. Any attempt to get in the line of fire meant death so a lot of weapons used was weapons that had splash or quick burst damage.

The mines aren't really great at area denial because they auto explode after quite a long time and do minor damage unless they sit on the whole thing. If you look at the loadout for the best damage possible you'll see that the EOC is slow, HE Charge/Detonator is slow and the Grenade Launcher is slow when you compair it with the Heat and TOW. The HEAT Infiltrator works because the HEAT is fast and you can combine GL and HEAT splash to great effect.

I just don't see the EOC being a viable competitive weapon when you can use the HEAT instead for better effect. I love both weapons but you have to think about the better option to help your team and yourself in combat when you NEED to win. I don't want to see the EOC beat the HEAT or become the HEAT but I would like to see it on par with the HEAT in terms of effectiveness and reliability. I will have to play around with the EOC when I get back from work, maybe your right about the heat gen difference and that I spent 10 minutes wasting my time typing this only to look like a jack***, lol.

Edited by Sylhiri, January 25 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[RedVan]

ShadowWarg, on January 25 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Conquistador, on January 25 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

.... I LOVE the EOC. Especially on infiltrator. It gives the infiltrator a great hybrid role of directed fire support against heavy targets, and also makes it the deadliest ambush predator in the game: an invisible eoc infiltrator will instagib damaged Mechs repairing too close to the battlefield, when used in conjunction with He grenades and the GL.

When utilized in conjunction with an excellent team, it can be absolutely devastating. Perhaps the person you were watching doesn't know how to properly aim it_

I did like how you compared the Hellfires, the easiest weapon in the game to aim but the most unlikely to hit, with the EOC, the hardest weapon in the game to aim but the most likely to hit if aimed properly.

They're practically on opposite ends of the skill scale, with the Hellfires having a low skill  and low skill ceiling, whereas the eoc has one of the highest skill floor/ceiling combinations in the game. We need to distinguish newbie-friendly auto-tracking  weapons with terrible hit capacity from extremely difficult (but extremely rewarding) direct fire support weapons that actually require a substantial amount of aim and prediction. Timing is everything on the EOC, and if you don't lead properly, you won't connect.

In short: just because he can't aim it doesn't mean it's a terrible weapon. The heat reduction actually made it incredibly viable now. Granted, HEAT will always be better in duels, but I would like to see EOC used in competitive team fights.

My apologies and yes you could be absolutely right. Then let me rephrase this question. Is there a way to make it more accessible to more players rather than the select few_

The only thing that makes things more "accessible" to players is the players willingness to practice.

[Conquistador]

Sylhiri, on January 25 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I just don't see the EOC being a viable competitive weapon when you can use the HEAT instead for better effect. I love both weapons but you have to think about the better option to help your team and yourself in combat when you NEED to win. I don't want to see the EOC beat the HEAT or become the HEAT but I would like to see it on par with the HEAT in terms of effectiveness and reliability. I will have to play around with the EOC when I get back from work, maybe your right about the heat gen difference and that I spent 10 minutes wasting my time typing this only to look like a jack***, lol.

This may be a testament to just how good HEAT really is, rather than how bad the EOC is, actually. The HEAT is far less challenging because it rewards near-misses (providing you target the nearby terrain at appropriate angles) with a huge splash AOE that easily offsets its slower travel time. But that's a discussion for another day.

I do agree with you that HEAT clearly outclasses the EOC in heavy cover, because the mine laying ability is ridiculously situational and heavily-reliant on timing. I also would not like to see EOC transform into HEAT, or get dumbed down to the point it only becomes accessible because it's easier to use. Challenge is part of what makes the weapon fun.

This being said, I wouldn't mind them making the EOC fire the pucks in quicker succession, without an increase to puck travel speed. The delay between pucks fired drastically impacts how much damage you do because subsequent pucks that miss are detrimental to your damage-dealing capacity as a whole. I'm finding a lot of success firing singletons or when the EOC is partially charged (in an odd burst fire mode), because it makes each puck predictable, but this reduces the eoc's burst damage capability. Reducing the downtime between pucks will mitigate this problem, especially at closer range. This should shoehorn the eoc into a long-range, predictive direct fire burst weapon role rather nicely, where the weapon excels at direct hits (as opposed to the HEAT, which should build on its AOE).

I'd rather not see the weapon dumbed down, but I do see that SOME changes should be made.  All I'm saying is the heat reduction makes shooting partially loaded doc bursts much more viable, and I no longer feel like I have to immediately flee the moment a scout sees me.

[_Hex_]

Conquistador, on January 25 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Sylhiri, on January 25 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

it rewards near misses

*cough* 19 meters *cough* *cough*

Heat needs a blast radius nerf maybe 10-15 meters MAX.

EOC needs the heat produced brought back UP and one of the following buffs in its place:

Mine proximity to be 5M (that's equal to the blast radius)
or...
ROF buff to make it a more viable burst weapon.
or........
Projectile speed buff

[Memag]

You still need to re-charge EOC (and Heat) after boosting forward. Bummer.
I guess that would make it more desirable.

[_Hex_]

It would be game breaking for the HEAT.

[waydownLo]

I would rather see the EOC be a distinct weapon. Rather than increasing the projectile speed (as one poster said, this would turn it into an burst-fire AR with explosive rounds) or tweaking the heat again, I would like to see it become viable as a dedicated tool to lay/detonate mines.

[bacon_avenger]

Memag, on January 25 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

You still need to re-charge EOC (and Heat) after boosting forward. Bummer.
I guess that would make it more desirable.

_Hex_, on January 25 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

It would be game breaking for the HEAT.

The funny thing is that I reported this as a bug back in alpha (boosting forward removes the held charge), and I was told it was a bug and it would be fixed.

I'm guessing they decided to leave it as is.

Edited by bacon_avenger, January 25 2013 - 05:14 PM.

[ShadowWarg]

Too bad it's mine feature is virtually non-existent. (have been messing with it all day) The heat reduction is nice and all, but that really only helps if the weapon is intended to be a direct combat weapon like the AR, Sub machine, Tow, etc. The time between when the pucks hit a surface and the auto detonation is just not good. Its too long for a chance to damage the intended target because they can move away from the spot quickly, and its too short to hold any chance of it being used as a mine. I don't care to much about the damage they do as mines, but like _Hex_ said, the blast radius is to small to even hit anything and the enemy has to run directly over the pucks to set them off. As a direct combat weapon I like it (maybe even more than the HEAT (AR Infiltrator is still my fav)). If it is a direct combat weapon, then I think yes, ROF and/or travel speed buff. If it is an indirect mine laying weapon it sucks and needs a time increase(or infinite), blast radius increase, and maybe motion/proxy sensors.

I guess my point is I think the EOC has an identity issues, being an Indirect VS Direct weapon.

As a side note, I still like option #3 and have them air burst (but that's more of personal taste)

Edited by ShadowWarg, January 25 2013 - 06:10 PM.