62 replies to this topic

[ShadowWarg]

Sylhiri, on January 29 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

What does it say about the weapon if you can name all the people that regularly use it with relative ease. Lol

Its says what everyone has been saying about it for the past couple of pages of this post topic and the ones in the past. Lol
But in all actuality, its say more for the skill of the players if they can manage to place in the top 3 with it.

[Conquistador]

Sylhiri, on January 29 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

What does it say about the weapon if you can name all the people that regularly use it with relative ease. Lol

EOC does need a buff, if we're THAT rare of a breed, haha.

Edited by Conquistador, January 29 2013 - 11:56 PM.

[Nept]

EOC's quite capable in the right hands, especially with its recent heat reduction buff.

Honestly, the community seems spoiled by all the soft-aiming, remote det splash.  Having weapons whose mastery requires some skill isn't a bad thing.

[DESMO]

Fellow rocketeers,
Dream for a real prestige weapon.


EOC-EX

Edited by DESMO, January 30 2013 - 01:46 AM.

[Owngasm]

I'd love to see it become a dedicated mine-laying weapon. There really isn't enough support-oriented weapons, which is a direction I'd love to see HAWKEN go into. Imagine how scary choke points would become if you had it laden with high explosives. It would also allow for Infiltrator to be more... Infiltrator-y. Go behind enemy lines, drop mines in a hallway, fire at some guys, and kite them into pure destruction.

Having it have a bigger radius would also help against all the A-Classes one deals with. Somebody humping a pillar_ Well, mine it up and see how long they last.

I'd love more stun/slowing weapons too (provided they have low/no damage), simply to add more interesting tactic options.

[ShadowWarg]

Nept, on January 30 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

EOC's quite capable in the right hands, especially with its recent heat reduction buff.

Honestly, the community seems spoiled by all the soft-aiming, remote det splash.  Having weapons whose mastery requires some skill isn't a bad thing.

Are you suggesting that more weapons be nerfed then; in order for skill to be more of a factor_
When you think about it this is already a skill based game compared to other FPS games. (no head shots, clunky movement, and many other things set this game apart)

Conquistador, on January 29 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Sylhiri, on January 29 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

What does it say about the weapon if you can name all the people that regularly use it with relative ease. Lol

EOC does need a buff, if we're THAT rare of a breed, haha.

We're special
And sometimes We're Ninja

Edited by ShadowWarg, January 30 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Nept, on January 30 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Honestly, the community seems spoiled by all the soft-aiming, remote det splash.  Having weapons whose mastery requires some skill isn't a bad thing.

Define this "skill", then put it in numerical form for each weapon so we can calculate it.

[Nept]

ShadowWarg, on January 30 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Nept, on January 30 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

EOC's quite capable in the right hands, especially with its recent heat reduction buff.

Honestly, the community seems spoiled by all the soft-aiming, remote det splash.  Having weapons whose mastery requires some skill isn't a bad thing.

Are you suggesting that more weapons be nerfed then; in order for skill to be more of a factor_
When you think about it this is already a skill based game compared to other FPS games. (no head shots, clunky movement, and many other things set this game apart)

Yes, I will suggest that several weapons be nerfed and that the overall game be sped up slightly.

Not today, however.  The community's become enamoured with (what's effectively) soft aiming, and it'll take several strong posts before opinions start to shift.  Many players shudder to think how quickly they'd be rendered ineffective were remote det removed or nerfed; those same players will undoubtedly protest any such changes with (ironically) cries of "skill", "tactics" and accessibility.  It will be an interesting discussion.

Unfortunately, my current crop of papers doesn't permit that sort of time.  You can rest assured, though, that I'll flesh everything out eventually.

[Owngasm]

ShadowWarg is definitely onto something, however, nerfing "soft-aiming" isnt the direction I'd go into. What should be done, IMO, is buffing or giving "hard-aiming (direct maybe a better word_)" shots to make them higher skill but higher rewards. An example could be something like stunlocking/deaccelerating bonus. Or even better (but probably harder to code) would be to have multiple hitboxes for various points on mech.
Sniping a leg would thus slow the opponent for a second. Arm shots cause an increase in heat or spread from effected weapon. This would reward players for using non-splash (and non-rapid fire as that would make these WAY OP).

Nerfing "soft-aiming would alienate a lot of the community and simply boost A-Class to an even further godlike status, since soft aiming is a reliable way to shot down their mobility advantage.

[ShadowWarg]

Owngasm, on January 31 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

ShadowWarg is definitely onto something, however, nerfing "soft-aiming" isnt the direction I'd go into. What should be done, IMO, is buffing or giving "hard-aiming (direct maybe a better word_)" shots to make them higher skill but higher rewards. An example could be something like stunlocking/deaccelerating bonus. Or even better (but probably harder to code) would be to have multiple hitboxes for various points on mech.
Sniping a leg would thus slow the opponent for a second. Arm shots cause an increase in heat or spread from effected weapon. This would reward players for using non-splash (and non-rapid fire as that would make these WAY OP).

Nerfing "soft-aiming would alienate a lot of the community and simply boost A-Class to an even further godlike status, since soft aiming is a reliable way to shot down their mobility advantage.

So basically, reward precision aiming with high damage shots or consecutive damage on an area (excluding splash damage) causes mechs to malfunction depending on the area hit. That's an interesting idea. People have posted on destructible limbs (personally I don't mind that as long as it arms/weapon that are destructible) so that's a nice alternative. But in general this is a topic for another forum.....topic.

Something like this would be interesting for the EOC. All the puck fly in a straight line unless turn while firing to spray them. (which is a good tactic btw).

[Noin]

Got my Infiltrator to 25 last night and gave the eoc a try.  It wasn't great, but i would also say it wasn't awful.  

TL;DR
Nice burst damage, takes a lot of skill to lead targets, mines are the only bit that needs help.
Choose 2 of the following to improve mines. (Increase detonation range, increase damage radius, one detonates all in the string detonate, charged mines last longer before timeout detonation)



Where it is great:  Sneaking up and landing super close quarters full charge on an unsuspecting Mech. Combine it with a grenade direct hit and you can deal a burst of 360 (210+150) dmg.  If that does not finish your opponent maybe you get another shoot in 3-4 second if you are lucky.  

This is great utility and matches quite well with the infiltraitors cloak ability.  Outside of that in normal combat you only find stationary targets (or targets only moving in a near/farther directional in relation to you) momentarily in repairing Mechs, the very lowest skilled players, and in intense battles which you have flanked very well.

Mediocre:  Any moving target takes great pilot prediction, aiming, and target leading skill which I am still in the infancy of developing.  The further the range the more skill required.  So today I am spray leading my targets which works ok at best with the slow projectile speed.  This results in 1 or 2  (35-70) damage if the eoc is charged.  Now I don't know the recharge time, but i am going to guess that it is 3-4 seconds and that is abysmal.  Even with some outstanding mine damage potential yet to come as to land a direct hit you are not likely aiming in a location where you would like to have the mines land if they miss.  

I feel pilot skill could be a differentiator here and like that there is room to grow and get better.

Poor:  Mines...  I like the utility, nice concept, and should add some width to the set of tactics available in the game.   I even manage to get mine damage on occasion.  I am not sure if it is from pilots running over them or from the 6 second timeout explosion.  Hopefully, these stats are being recorded for the devs to analyze.  I believe that there is a bunch of pilot skill and creativity here to be tapped.  This would apply to area denial and potentially as well even in cqc 1v1, or 1vMany.  

I feel that some minor tweaking here could make the difference in this being a viable and interesting weapon for the    Infiltrator and the Rocketeer. Noting of course that the Rocketeer is missing the sneak up and touch someone aspect.

Here are a couple of options.  
1.  Increase the range of detonation so that a Mech does not have to be right on top of the mine to detonate it.  This could affect the ability to boost or jump over the mines increasing their area denial ability and pillar dancing skills limiting exit routes becomes plausible, not to heat splash level but something more effective.  

2.  Increase damage radius of mines.  Goes hand in hand with #1.  This would also impact timeout detonation.  It might be interesting to tweak one of detonation radius or damage radius to be slightly different.  I would vote for a larger damage radius over a larger detonation radius if they were going to be different sizes.  Both need a tweak.

3.  One mine detonates, all of the mines in the shot detonate.  The description says they are connected by wire.  I'm not sure if this should happen only when the entire set is laid, as in none hit a target in flight or should always be the case.  

4. Longer duration or permanent mines.  Permanent mines = BAD  I could spam all the choke points in a map and then go hide.  Longer duration I can get behind.  The utility of the mine is very limited to being chased and dropping them to do some deterrence, or in a very high traffic area of cqc 6 seconds is nothing in missle assault if you are protecting an entrance to a silo as you head in to cap it.  No one may even come in that time frame, in fact most mines certainly blow up now resulting in no damage.  My thought is charged mines could sustain for longer, no more than 12 seconds though.  This could also let you put down an interesting pattern of charged mines and unchanged mines.

I know the mines do friendly fire damage on timeout detonation, i do not think they are friendly fire detonatable by a teammate setting them off though.  Which adds some more strategy to consider.

Edited by Noin, February 02 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[LongForeignMan]

Hit 25 on my infil a few days ago, and gave a good effort at learning the EOC.
My gosh its poo. Have run screaming back to my HEAT.

I think that it needs to be made into some sort of dedicated mine layer, rather than increasing the projectile speed. Perhaps reducing the direct hit burst, but making the mines detonate when walked on_

For the time being I shal stick with my old faithful *sob - I missed you, I'll never leave you again!*

[RedVan]

LongForeignMan, on February 04 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Hit 25 on my infil a few days ago, and gave a good effort at learning the EOC.
My gosh its poo. Have run screaming back to my HEAT.

I think that it needs to be made into some sort of dedicated mine layer, rather than increasing the projectile speed. Perhaps reducing the direct hit burst, but making the mines detonate when walked on_

For the time being I shal stick with my old faithful *sob - I missed you, I'll never leave you again!*

It is about as fuzzy bunny as weapons get (poo and OP at the same time).  Yes, it's difficult to use, but at the same time, it does a ton of damage when used correctly.

You really just need to get used to it.  Will it ever be as effective as heat_  No, but then, heat needs some balance tweaking.  Once that tweaking is done, the EOC won't feel as fuzzy bunny relative to the heat.  So its not really that the EOC needs a buff or anything, its that the heat just does more damage per ease of use (dmg/ez we'll call it).  The dmg/ez makes the heat the obvious choice.

Only use EOC if you don't want to feel dirty while killing your opponents.
(EOC:  For those who don't want to have to take a shower after turning up the Heat)

Edited by RedVan, February 04 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Gree]

I use it sometimes on my rocketeer. It works well on origin.

[Commy1]

There is only 1 application I've been able to use it successfully, that is to, while cloaked sneak up on a group or individual charge the EOC and burst damage with Grenade Launcher. Will take a full CRT-Recruit to 1/3 or so. In a 1v1 however if I have the choice I'd take an AR (until I get the hang of the Heat Cannon).

[LongForeignMan]

RedVan, on February 04 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

LongForeignMan, on February 04 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Hit 25 on my infil a few days ago, and gave a good effort at learning the EOC.
My gosh its poo. Have run screaming back to my HEAT.

I think that it needs to be made into some sort of dedicated mine layer, rather than increasing the projectile speed. Perhaps reducing the direct hit burst, but making the mines detonate when walked on_

For the time being I shal stick with my old faithful *sob - I missed you, I'll never leave you again!*

It is about as fuzzy bunny as weapons get (poo and OP at the same time).  Yes, it's difficult to use, but at the same time, it does a ton of damage when used correctly.

You really just need to get used to it.  Will it ever be as effective as heat_  No, but then, heat needs some balance tweaking.  Once that tweaking is done, the EOC won't feel as fuzzy bunny relative to the heat.  So its not really that the EOC needs a buff or anything, its that the heat just does more damage per ease of use (dmg/ez we'll call it).  The dmg/ez makes the heat the obvious choice.

Only use EOC if you don't want to feel dirty while killing your opponents.
(EOC:  For those who don't want to have to take a shower after turning up the Heat)

I dont want to hear about them changing my happy place! But yes I hate to say it, when you get the hang of it the HEAT is kinda OP...
I hope they just improve the EOC rather than nerfing HEAT. Building a HEAT GL grenadier now you see.

Perhaps their intention is for the EOC if synergise with the camoflage ability. If thats the case then maybe camoflage could get its cooldown shortened when equipping EOC. its neat to pop out of invis to fuzzy bunny people, but once every 55 seconds seems gimmicky.

[RedVan]

LongForeignMan, on February 04 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

RedVan, on February 04 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

LongForeignMan, on February 04 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Hit 25 on my infil a few days ago, and gave a good effort at learning the EOC.
My gosh its poo. Have run screaming back to my HEAT.

I think that it needs to be made into some sort of dedicated mine layer, rather than increasing the projectile speed. Perhaps reducing the direct hit burst, but making the mines detonate when walked on_

For the time being I shal stick with my old faithful *sob - I missed you, I'll never leave you again!*

It is about as fuzzy bunny as weapons get (poo and OP at the same time).  Yes, it's difficult to use, but at the same time, it does a ton of damage when used correctly.

You really just need to get used to it.  Will it ever be as effective as heat_  No, but then, heat needs some balance tweaking.  Once that tweaking is done, the EOC won't feel as fuzzy bunny relative to the heat.  So its not really that the EOC needs a buff or anything, its that the heat just does more damage per ease of use (dmg/ez we'll call it).  The dmg/ez makes the heat the obvious choice.

Only use EOC if you don't want to feel dirty while killing your opponents.
(EOC:  For those who don't want to have to take a shower after turning up the Heat)

I dont want to hear about them changing my happy place! But yes I hate to say it, when you get the hang of it the HEAT is kinda OP...
I hope they just improve the EOC rather than nerfing HEAT. Building a HEAT GL grenadier now you see.

Perhaps their intention is for the EOC if synergise with the camoflage ability. If thats the case then maybe camoflage could get its cooldown shortened when equipping EOC. its neat to pop out of invis to fuzzy bunny people, but once every 55 seconds seems gimmicky.

The problem with the heat is that you don't need to be LOS with your opponent to hit them.  It's ok to be able to splash around corners to a certain extent, but the heat is a bit over the top.  This game already has too much splash in it, they need to reduce it overall.  It wont just affect the heat, TOW needs a small nerf as well.

[ShadowWarg]

RedVan, on February 04 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

It is about as fuzzy bunny as weapons get (poo and OP at the same time).  Yes, it's difficult to use, but at the same time, it does a ton of damage when used correctly.

Poo on me_ Why_ I gave it some good points. I learned it. I just think it needs some tweaks. And by the looks of this thread the tweak that people are demanding is better mine ability.

I'm an EOC user.... or well I was.... am still...maybe. Using HEAT now. (Agree that HEAT is a bit over the top now that I think about it) I learned the EOC before I learned the HEAT. I'm weird like that.  Anyway, in short, mines sucks, the sound when you shoot is awesome, and the EOC is a Sneaky FUZZY BUNNY weapon because unlike other weapons, there is no sound when you get hit by it. Health  just vanishes. Is a ghost weapon.... ninja weapon..... ninja.... infiltrator....  ninja infiltrator....

EOC Infiltrator = Ninja

OMG!! NINJAS!!!
NINJAS!!!!!!

WE EOC INFILTRATORS ARE NINJAS!

(-.-(-.(-(-.(-.-).-)-).-)-.-)

[ShadowWarg]

Added in a poll just to get the final word in by people. If I forgot a major suggestion, tell me and I will add it to the poll.

As a side not I would change the title of this topic, but I am unaware how to do that at the moment.

[marshalade]

Conquistador, on January 25 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

This being said, I wouldn't mind them making the EOC fire the pucks in quicker succession, without an increase to puck travel speed. The delay between pucks fired drastically impacts how much damage you do because subsequent pucks that miss are detrimental to your damage-dealing capacity as a whole. I'm finding a lot of success firing singletons or when the EOC is partially charged (in an odd burst fire mode), because it makes each puck predictable, but this reduces the eoc's burst damage capability. Reducing the downtime between pucks will mitigate this problem, especially at closer range. This should shoehorn the eoc into a long-range, predictive direct fire burst weapon role rather nicely, where the weapon excels at direct hits (as opposed to the HEAT, which should build on its AOE).

I'd rather not see the weapon dumbed down, but I do see that SOME changes should be made.  All I'm saying is the heat reduction makes shooting partially loaded doc bursts much more viable, and I no longer feel like I have to immediately flee the moment a scout sees me.

This. I don't like the idea of a projectile speed buff, because the current speed allows me to have ordinance in the air in a particular location after breaking line of sight, like a Grenade or TOW. This makes for ridiculous burst potential while effectively maintaining cover, if executed properly.

Edited by marshalade, February 04 2013 - 10:18 PM.