78 replies to this topic

[draco7891]

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on January 26 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

It looks to me like you just want to nerf this class because you don't have enough 'situational awareness' to realise you should dodge for cover when being shot from outside of your Mech's ideal range.
Either that or you just want to CQC all day.

You know what hitscan means right_ Instant damage application_ Literally faster than the speed of light_

There is no "dodging for cover". There's "put one toe out of cover" and then "have no health left". That's it. No dodge or situational awareness will save you from instant damage. Except maybe clairvoyance.

What I want is for SS to continue to succeed and fulfill its niche (to, as you say excel at something) while not also simultaneously succeeding at everything else too, which is basically what it does now.

Draco

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

If the SS goes back to pre-Reaper stats, the SS will no longer nearly kill you in one volley; problem solved, as you can then get shot, realise the need to GTFO, and have the time to do so.

I also fail to see how the SS succeeds at everything else.
I can't go Rambo with my SS into a group of enemies like i do with my Assault; i get faced with more than 1 opponent, i die, as i don't have the armor or the firepower for it, even in it's current state.
I can't suppress a group of enemies like a Grenadier or Cupcake can; i'll overheat the SS long before doing enough damage to scare them all off, and i also don't have the ROF for it.
I can't go boosting in, finish off a few enemies who are almost dead anyway and then boost back out; even with full speed/fuel in skill tree i'd be so extremely outclassed by the A-Classes that it'd be an exercise in futility.
I'd be able to kill one guy, two if i got lucky, and then get swarmed and turned into lunch.

[Juodvarnis]

Dude, whatever you're smoking right now, stop.

It obviously affects your ability to think coherently.

No offense.

[TwiceDead]

Juodvarnis, on January 26 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Dread Lord, you should really understand that a mech that is meant for long range combat and at the moment is THE BEST mech for that, should NOT be able to kill anything in close quarters. If he gets ambushed, or snuck up on by a mech that specializes in close combat (and so is pretty much useless at long range) he DESERVES to die. It's called situational awareness.

Oh so you're saying make SS useless then. GOOD SUGGESTION!
A long range SS is useless. If an SS is not at point, it's useless. If it's not pursuing the objective, it's useless. You need to be mid-close range to be helpful, or else you'll just be deadweight.

Snipers will always be overpowered when someone skilled enough pilots them, that's fact for every game that is to date. This suggests you nerf SS based on how the good players use it, what are you going to make it useless for scrubs as well_

Quote

There is no "dodging for cover". There's "put one toe out of cover" and then "have no health left". That's it. No dodge or situational awareness will save you from instant damage.

Wrong there is. And if you can't pull it off then the other players is better than you or you are just being careless.

See an SS on the map_ Keep extra careful lookout for it. If you see it, don't see it for more than a half second or your chance of getting shot is extremely high. It's about reflexes at this point, and if yours are not up to par then you will get shot. Just fact.

Oh by the way. Easiest way in the world to counter an SS_

GET A SHIELD. Get into CQC; pop shield, dead SS. Unless the SS charges you and joins you in your shield. In which case it has probably already taken so much damage its going to die anyway. Literally nullifies their damage output to zero and there is nothing they can do about it.

On topic:
Yeah ability is OP.

Edited by TwiceDead, January 26 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[RisorialScion]

Also, hitscan doesn't automatically mean you hit everything. Wanna see how you play SS against 1 skilled A-Class, even with Power Shot and everything. Report back when you have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM STOMPING ANYTHING because Powershot uberopwtfbbq. I mean, its a glory 2 second boost which, funny as it is, makes no diff against enemies with full health. It only means 1 less shot when the enemy is wounded, thats all. I still need at least 4 shots for the frail A-Class with Powershot enabled when I do perfect hits and I play at Maximum damage including full dmg perks and internals that benefit my firepower. Taking into account that I can't fire more than once every second as well as having to stand still to hit the enemy because even when walking the bullets fly into wonderland explains why I still rarely stand a chance against constantly dodging experienced pilots in A-Class.

[KaszaWspraju]

Change abilities between Raper and Sharpshooter.
Raper Powershoot - but lower percentage multiplier.
Sharpshooter  Precision Overdrive - this give CQ abilities.

Problem solved.

[TwiceDead]

KaszaWspraju, on January 26 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Change abilities between Raper and Sharpshooter.
Raper Powershoot - but lower percentage multiplier.
Sharpshooter  Precision Overdrive - this give CQ abilities.

Problem solved.

No it's not. Slug is perfectly accurate. Sabot is perfectly accurate when scoped. What you would give us is a useless ability.

draco7891, on January 26 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

I'm not going to engage in speculating about the manifold strategic possibilities that may occur in the course of gameplay. The point is, there are methods, tools and techniques available that provide a snuck-up-upon SS the capability to stand its ground, in the absence of straight weapon damage.

So SS should not be able to defend itself relying on it's weapon damage_ Even when the SS's weapons has lower DPS than any weapons in the game_ Every other class has a higher dps output than the SS, and SS is not even allowed to defend itself relying on it's weapon damage when every other class does_

You make sense! Brilliant suggestion! I am astounded by your magnificent suggestion!

No... I'm not.

[KaszaWspraju]

Quote

No it's not. Slug is perfectly accurate. Sabot is perfectly accurate when scoped. What you would give us is a useless ability.

Increase noscope ability in CQ.

[RisorialScion]

If the SS gets nerfed to not be able to fight properly, I'm just gonna play Scout or Zerker just like everybody else. 2 Classes; perfect balance

[TwiceDead]

KaszaWspraju, on January 26 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Quote

No it's not. Slug is perfectly accurate. Sabot is perfectly accurate when scoped. What you would give us is a useless ability.

Increase noscope ability in CQ.

Sabot is still perfectly accurate when scoped. You just need to quickscope in CQ, scope out, fire your slug a few times, scope in, fire sabot, scope out, perfectly accurate. Except that you have to compensate for ping.

[draco7891]

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

So SS should not be able to defend itself relying on it's weapon damage_

Up close_ No.

Quote

Even when the SS's weapons has lower DPS than any weapons in the game_ Every other class has a higher dps output than the SS, and SS is not even allowed to defend itself relying on it's weapon damage when every other class does_

The Slug is 75dmg every 1 second, 75 DPS.
The Sabot is, what 170 every 4 seconds_ That's 42.5 DPS.

Total: 117.5 DPS

AR is 79.4, TOW is 46.25, total 125.65 DPS.

So for the "massive" handicap of 8.15DPS, the SS gets laser accuracy, and an ability that will let it output just shy of 600 damage... in 3 seconds. Before items, optimizations and internals.

Do you not see why this is broken_

Draco

Edited by draco7891, January 26 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Juodvarnis]

draco7891, on January 26 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

So SS should not be able to defend itself relying on it's weapon damage_

Up close_ No.

Quote

Even when the SS's weapons has lower DPS than any weapons in the game_ Every other class has a higher dps output than the SS, and SS is not even allowed to defend itself relying on it's weapon damage when every other class does_

The Slug is 75dmg every 1 second, 75 DPS.
The Sabot is, what 170 every 4 seconds_ That's 42.5 DPS.

Total: 117.5 DPS

AR is 79.4, TOW is 46.25, total 125.65 DPS.

So for the "massive" handicap of 8.15DPS, the SS gets laser accuracy, and an ability that will let it output just shy of 600 damage... in 3 seconds. Before items, optimizations and internals.

Do you not see why this is broken_

Draco

Don't forget that Slug rifle doesn't need constant Line of Sight to be effective like the AR does.

[Nept]

Very Briefly:

The SS remains underpowered, regardless of an ability that can be activated once per minute.  While you may find this ability personally frustrating, your occasional death isn't a good indicator of SS effectiveness.  Two (2) seconds of burst effectiveness  (i.e., a single salvo, followed by a slug shot) each sixty seconds is nothing to complain about.

To quickly preclude any irrelevant attacks on my ability, let's be clear: I am an excellent sharpshooter.  I am also an excellent scout, in case that means anything to the A-class splash elitists.

Soft-aimed, remote det splash weaponry is ubiquitous.  Most mechs need not expose themselves to do significant damage; they need not even hit their target, for that matter.  As a result, most high-level play involves humping cover, watching the radar, and exposing your mech only briefly - long enough to fire your remote det tow, remote det nade, or your massive-splash heat cannon.  Maybe you'll have to take a shot with your easy-aim, hitscan flak cannon.  In this setting, the sharpshooter carries a massive disadvantage.  Against a quality player, you've a half second to zoom in, take your shot, and evade the incoming tow - a procedure that's complicated by the zoom-in time.  This process becomes slightly easier at medium ranges, but remains unreasonably difficult for most players.

After you've fired your salvo, you've 4-5 seconds before you're triggering that sabot again, and 1.158 before the slug.  That gives the (often faster) enemy plenty of time to close any distance.  In other words, if you're beaten by a sharpshooter at close-medium range, that player damn well deserved that kill:  he/she pinpointed every shot against a fast-moving target while you splashed around with soft-aim and cover.

The new ability makes it possible for average-to-good sharpshooters to defend themselves in medium range/cqc for two seconds each minute.  That's all.  Alternatively, it enables significant damage at range for two seconds each minute.  That's all.

And let's talk about long-range, shall we_  Against quality players, long-range opportunities are few.  There's so much cover in Hawken that any player with decent reflexes and situational awareness will recognize they've been hit, assess the direction of the shot, and dash behind cover.  Once they're roughly aware of your position, it's an easy matter to fight from behind protection; the sharpshooter must then drastically change their firing angle, which means relocation, which means significant time.  So when you say, "The sharpshooter is supposed to be effective at long range only", what you're really saying is either "I don't understand how this game plays at higher levels of skill", or "I want the sharpshooter nerfed into oblivion".  Take your pick.

There's a big difference between pubbing around with new players and competing against quality ones.  Games must be balanced with the latter in mind, not the former.

One other thing: I don't know why the OP suggested making the sabot projectile-based.  Perhaps they subscribe to traditional negotiating tactics, and took a position so outrageous that the "middle ground" - the nerfing of the SS's ability - would seem reasonable in comparison.  Or perhaps they simply don't understand that in a game dominated by remote-detonation noobiness, the entire balance of hitscan vs. splash is altered.  Even without remote det, good splash players, with the massive splash radii of their weapons, would be balanced against good hitscanners.

In the spirit of the OP, here's my counterproposal: Change the SS's ability back to its original 15% for 8 seconds AND remove remote detonation from all weapons except grenades.

[Akaon]

Pitr! Stop your blasphemy against the rocketeer! Even as a joke you can't suggest it should be nerfed!

But honestly, turning the guns in this game into projectiles with very high travel speeds might not be such a bad idea (note: very high travel speeds).

SS does feel overly powerful right now with the new ability, the damage is insane.

[TwiceDead]

Juodvarnis, on January 26 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Don't forget that Slug rifle doesn't need constant Line of Sight to be effective like the AR does.

Neither does AR. Both are hit-scan. The former just deals more damage per shot than the latter. Besides if you are smart... Use your remote det ToWs like any decent player, instead of exposing yourself when you know you're up against an SS that can CQC.

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

So SS should not be able to defend itself relying on it's weapon damage_

draco7891, on January 26 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Up close_ No.

... Really..._

Quote

Even when the SS's weapons has lower DPS than any weapons in the game_ Every other class has a higher dps output than the SS, and SS is not even allowed to defend itself relying on it's weapon damage when every other class does_

draco7891, on January 26 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

The Slug is 75dmg every 1 second, 75 DPS.
The Sabot is, what 170 every 4 seconds _it's 5 seconds or more That's 42.5 DPS.

Total: 117.5 DPS

AR is 79.4, TOW is 46.25, total 125.65 DPS.

So for the "massive" handicap of 8.15DPS, the SS gets laser accuracy, and an ability that will let it output just shy of 600 damage... in 3 seconds. Before items, optimizations and internals.

Wrong. Sabot deals 170 damage every 5 seconds.
Which makes it 34 DPS.

Total: 109

A bit more than your "Massive" handicap of 8.15DPS... Turns out it's actually twice that number, and that makes all the difference.
Actually it feels like a bit more than 5 seconds, that should potentially push the sabot's DPS number even lower.
Are you sure you have tried playing SS seriously_ Those 5 seconds are really not hard to notice when you get used to the SS.

CQC with an SS against classes that are built for close quarters is already hard enough as it is, nerfing them would force them into long range, and anyone that has tried SS knows that long range combat just ain't worth it. As I said before, it makes you deadweight to your team.

Akaon, on January 26 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Pitr! Stop your blasphemy against the rocketeer! Even as a joke you can't suggest it should be nerfed!

But honestly, turning the guns in this game into projectiles with very high travel speeds might not be such a bad idea (note: very high travel speeds).

If this ever happens I demand lag compensation in the game. I don't want to compensate 0.1+ seconds as well as travel time again, I had enough of that fuzzy bunny while I was playing Global Agenda.

Edited by TwiceDead, January 26 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[U8er]

Akaon, on January 26 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

SS does feel overly powerful right now with the new ability, the damage is insane.

No, It doesn't. And it's not.

"The new ability makes it possible for average-to-good sharpshooters to defend themselves in medium range/cqc for two seconds each minute.  That's all.  Alternatively, it enables significant damage at range for two seconds each minute.  That's all."

All of the maps currently in rotation have enough cover and line of sight blockers to make any sort of long range dedicated play by the SS rendered almost completely null. Even using a light class mech, with the SS' ability and dual salvo, you're not going to be taken down instantly, leaving time to slide into cover which would easily be within dodging range if you're able to properly navigate a map and position yourself. You then have time to repair and make your way to the last known position that the SS fired from, all while keeping line of sight blockers between you and him/her. What then_ Most times, all that will take place within under a minute, the SS' ability still being on cool down when you encounter it. Even if not, you've repaired back to full health at this point or close enough to it that the dual salvo will not be capable of taking you down, leaving the SS' lack of comparative mobility and around cover splash to be it's downfall against anyone who has the slightest idea how to properly utilize cover efficiently in CQC or at medium range.

The SS does not need a nerf in any way, shape, or form. What's needed is a better understanding of what's required of a player to face off against a class that only an incredibly small number of people can actually pilot effectively at this moment.

Edited by U8er, January 26 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[draco7891]

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

... Really..._

If you can't get close... and you can't stay at range... how do you kill a Sharpshooter (except by taking Sharpshooter yourself)_

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Wrong.

Fine, point conceded. SS damage remains where it is; argue the OP suggestion of making Power Shot's bonus range-based rather than flat.

Draco

[TwiceDead]

I do agree that the ability is too powerful, but I don't agree to any weapon tweaks. That's all.

[U8er]

draco7891, on January 26 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

If you can't get close... and you can't stay at range... how do you kill a Sharpshooter (except by taking Sharpshooter yourself)_

The answer would most certainly not be to mirror a class in order to combat it. Rather, figure out what it is about your current positioning and advancing strategy that doesn't work, and seek to change it. I'd suggest reading through Nept's post on the matter closely, mine as well. While they're not exactly guides, the points within them should help you to better understand facing off against an SS at any distance.

[ApoC_101]

Guys... it only gets to fire that sabot once during the powerup... if you do the math, the gained damage bonus is most likely about the same as what it used to be (it's just delivered quicker), and also probably less damage than say, the CRTs heat reduction (and resulting damage from sustained fire).