78 replies to this topic

[Gree]

DeVact, on February 10 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

FINALLY after all the scout hate (i took that quite personally) somebody started to complain about the other class currently considered to be OP (in skilled hands that is).
May I turn your own words against you TwiceDead_ I will anyways
Power shot is definitely OP. Not because of the damage it inflicts BUT because of its short cooldown. Make it longer and everything is fine!

The
Power Shot
Is
Not
Over
Powered

Damn it.

[Akaon]

Gree, on February 11 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

DeVact, on February 10 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

FINALLY after all the scout hate (i took that quite personally) somebody started to complain about the other class currently considered to be OP (in skilled hands that is).
May I turn your own words against you TwiceDead_ I will anyways
Power shot is definitely OP. Not because of the damage it inflicts BUT because of its short cooldown. Make it longer and everything is fine!

The
Power Shot
Is
Not
Over
Powered

Damn it.

Use
Arguments
Damn
It
.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Akaon, on February 11 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Use
Arguments
Damn
It
.

No
We
Won't
Because
You're
OP
Too !!

[cavediver]

Leave the SS alone.....  After suffering through the death by every other mech to level up and actualy be competive, I can"t imagine listening to a bunch of cry babies.  If anything get rid of Scouts, and Berserkers_  

Just kidding but at level 25 they still kick my butt.  cavediver

[Akaon]

cavediver, on February 11 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Leave the SS alone.....  After suffering through the death by every other mech to level up and actualy be competive, I can"t imagine listening to a bunch of cry babies.  If anything get rid of Scouts, and Berserkers_  

Just kidding but at level 25 they still kick my butt.  cavediver

Needing to be lv 25 to be competitive_ Btw, if you can't imagine listening to a bunch of crybabies, try looking up some crybabies on youtube, just remember to turn your sound on. This will take away the effort of imagining.

But anyway, are you certain you're being objective here about the SS_ It's not about being impossible to kill or anything, it's about the amount of damage the SS can inflict with hitscan weaponry, it's too high imo. Unless, of course, you consider the damage output to be low. Do you_

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on February 11 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Akaon, on February 11 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Use
Arguments
Damn
It
.

No
We
Won't
Because
You're
OP
Too !!

I had a talk about this with the devs, they promised me that they wouldn't nerf me after i promised to buy more MC .

[Akaon]

Well, i kinda changed my mind on the SS.

At first i was thinking it was mildly OP, i mean, sure, it does insane damage, but at least it kinda sucks vs C mechs as it takes quite a while to kill them due to low dps.

But lately i've seen a few games where there were multiple high(er) skill players. Essentially, you saw that people were forced to pick SS to compete with SS's. 2 SS's that can actually aim and are working together shut down any A mech instantly. B mechs don't fare much better and C mechs die pretty quickly as well. In a one on one situation you can talk about countering the SS, with 2 you can't, unless we're talking about swarming them with your whole team, and you'd still lose some mechs doing so.

Honestly, who thinks a mech that can do 250 damage instantly, hitscan, needs an ability at all, that increases damage_

On the side, the combination of the high level SS weapon upgrades kind of ignore the downsides of shooting unscoped (other than accuracy on the sabot), not to mention how effective and easy quickscoping is.

[defekt]

Powershot is too strong. ...And it lasts for too long (3 Slug + 1 Sabot is too much damage). ...And it recharges too soon.  I used to like the sudden spike to level the DPS stakes for my SS when entering into CQB but since then it's become far too easy to just sit back, being exposed to almost no risk, and still shut down huge chunks of the battlefield and rack up kills like no tomorrow; if nothing else Powershot rewards poor SS play.  (Also, let's be honest here, it really isn't difficult to Powershot with hitscan weapons against massive, slow moving hitboxes.)  Two skilled SS players who talk to each other pretty much lock down the game entirely, and without really breaking a sweat.

It's the easiest thing in the world to let the metagame be dictated by the effects of skilled snipers; far too many games allow that to happen.  It would be nice if Hawken didn't become one of those games.

[Gree]

Akaon, on February 11 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Gree, on February 11 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

DeVact, on February 10 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

FINALLY after all the scout hate (i took that quite personally) somebody started to complain about the other class currently considered to be OP (in skilled hands that is).
May I turn your own words against you TwiceDead_ I will anyways
Power shot is definitely OP. Not because of the damage it inflicts BUT because of its short cooldown. Make it longer and everything is fine!

The
Power Shot
Is
Not
Over
Powered

Damn it.

Use
Arguments
Damn
It
.

I used arguments enough. Time for direct approaches.

[SilentJacket]

defekt, on February 15 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Powershot is too strong. ...And it lasts for too long (3 Slug + 1 Sabot is too much damage). ...And it recharges too soon.  I used to like the sudden spike to level the DPS stakes for my SS when entering into CQB but since then it's become far too easy to just sit back, being exposed to almost no risk, and still shut down huge chunks of the battlefield and rack up kills like no tomorrow; if nothing else Powershot rewards poor SS play.  (Also, let's be honest here, it really isn't difficult to Powershot with hitscan weapons against massive, slow moving hitboxes.)  Two skilled SS players who talk to each other pretty much lock down the game entirely, and without really breaking a sweat.

It's the easiest thing in the world to let the metagame be dictated by the effects of skilled snipers; far too many games allow that to happen.  It would be nice if Hawken didn't become one of those games.

mhm, well given that there is cover literally everywhere, getting kills in an SS without engaging in CQC is very hard

In addition, what are the chances that you land all 4 shots_ I have trouble getting in the Sabot round by itself, because the window to snipe people in this game is incredibly narrow.

[Sylhiri]

SilentJacket, on February 15 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

mhm, well given that there is cover literally everywhere, getting kills in an SS without engaging in CQC is very hard

Isn't that a map issue though_

SilentJacket, on February 15 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

In addition, what are the chances that you land all 4 shots_ I have trouble getting in the Sabot round by itself, because the window to snipe people in this game is incredibly narrow.

Which is why I suggested before that instead of a super one shot skill replace it with the ability that lowers cooldown for weapons for a limited time. You get more shots and possibly more damage. I can see it good for long range but better for short range. I really don't like the "If it doesn't work properly then up the damage" mentality.

[SilentJacket]

but the SS role is supposed to be small amounts of well placed shots, wouldn't an ability that reduces cooldown time just encourage shot spamming, and make it another spray-and-pray mech_

[Culex]

Sylhiri, on February 15 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

SilentJacket, on February 15 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

In addition, what are the chances that you land all 4 shots_ I have trouble getting in the Sabot round by itself, because the window to snipe people in this game is incredibly narrow.

Which is why I suggested before that instead of a super one shot skill replace it with the ability that lowers cooldown for weapons for a limited time. You get more shots and possibly more damage. I can see it good for long range but better for short range. I really don't like the "If it doesn't work properly then up the damage" mentality.

This thread would just be replaced with saying that is OP instead. "Oh he just shot me and took me down by half, then he was able to shoot me again and down me after just being shot!_! WTF OP".

There are other ways to go about balancing this (if need be). For starters, knowing when the SS is using powershot and has it on CD is an important first step. Like a crosshair icon over the top of their heads. Seeing this appear means GTFO or side-dodge like a madman. And after it wears off, players can be more tempted to go chase after the SS knowing it can't burst it down as easily before it gets there, since they now have the knowledge of the CD.

Having these special abilities being shown to enemy players is a concept that was mentioned in previous threads. I'd consider attaching them to every mech.

The damage over range is another interesting balancer. But at what range should it receive what damage modifier_ This is another subjective and controversial thing to balance. That would just make maps play an even more deciding factor on how viable the SS can be. An alternate version could be:
The SS takes a slight increase in damage received when this ability is active. So at range as long as the SS is in a safe position (and not in direct combat with other enemies), it is not punished. In CQC, this proves more risky in combination with unscoped shots tending to miss.

I'd like to see the SS retain this burst, but employed at a higher risk.

[Sylhiri]

Culex, are you thinking a practical game or 1v1_ You have a lot of secondaries to keep track in your head. Culex what are the numbers for a full powershot Sabot+Slug combo_

[SilentJacket]

Culex, on February 15 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Sylhiri, on February 15 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

SilentJacket, on February 15 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

In addition, what are the chances that you land all 4 shots_ I have trouble getting in the Sabot round by itself, because the window to snipe people in this game is incredibly narrow.

Which is why I suggested before that instead of a super one shot skill replace it with the ability that lowers cooldown for weapons for a limited time. You get more shots and possibly more damage. I can see it good for long range but better for short range. I really don't like the "If it doesn't work properly then up the damage" mentality.

This thread would just be replaced with saying that is OP instead. "Oh he just shot me and took me down by half, then he was able to shoot me again and down me after just being shot!_! WTF OP".

There are other ways to go about balancing this (if need be). For starters, knowing when the SS is using powershot and has it on CD is an important first step. Like a crosshair icon over the top of their heads. Seeing this appear means GTFO or side-dodge like a madman. And after it wears off, players can be more tempted to go chase after the SS knowing it can't burst it down as easily before it gets there, since they now have the knowledge of the CD.

Having these special abilities being shown to enemy players is a concept that was mentioned in previous threads. I'd consider attaching them to every mech.

The damage over range is another interesting balancer. But at what range should it receive what damage modifier_ This is another subjective and controversial thing to balance. That would just make maps play an even more deciding factor on how viable the SS can be. An alternate version could be:
The SS takes a slight increase in damage received when this ability is active. So at range as long as the SS is in a safe position (and not in direct combat with other enemies), it is not punished. In CQC, this proves more risky in combination with unscoped shots tending to miss.

I'd like to see the SS retain this burst, but employed at a higher risk.

maybe a instead of "powershot" you can use "power reroute" instead

Uber powerful shots at a trade for some other aspect (radar maybe_)

[Culex]

Sylhiri, on February 15 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Culex, are you thinking a practical game or 1v1_ You have a lot of secondaries to keep track in your head. Culex what are the numbers for a full powershot Sabot+Slug combo_

The SS is very focus-heavy and requires attention on mostly one target at a time. The scope is awesome and shouldn't change, but this cuts off the SS's situational awareness, even for brief times when you're quick-scoping. So in the context of 1v1, this is where the SS seems most strong when he only has to worry about the target he is tracking. The strength of the SS goes down when more enemies are present to pose a threat, but at the same time present more opportunities/targets when the original target gets away/repairs out of line of sight. So I'm not sure what you mean by that question_

As for stats, don't take this with any disrespect, but I'm promoting the wiki, so visit that and check the stats. I myself don't actively think about numbers when I am playing, just approximate healths where I feel if I am in danger of dying or killing someone with a certain shot.
http://hawkenwiki.ne...ki/Sharpshooter
Stats are listed on the weapons if you click them.

Edited by Culex, February 15 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[defekt]

SilentJacket, on February 15 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

mhm, well given that there is cover literally everywhere, getting kills in an SS without engaging in CQC is very hard

If you're viewing the Powershot from the perspective of merely racking up kills then yes, fair point, you are better off getting stuck in (if you're any good at SS CQB); however, one should not underestimate the power of forcing your target to bug out and repair, particularly in the context of objective based play.  Not only can Powershot instantly blunt the point of a co-ordinated attack but if you can force more than one enemy mech to bug out and repair -- not hard to do, hitscan weapons vs huge hitboxes -- the remaining three or four attackers end up moving in against a full team, or find themselves stalling until their team mates are back up and running during which time the SS Powershot regenerates and is forcing yet more of their contingent to bug out.  This effect is harsh enough with one SS but with two competent SSs in operation the enemy often can't make any meaningful progress at all.  The only way to stop Powershot from controlling the game is to fight fire with fire, i.e., bring in some of your own Powershooting robot jockeys, but I don't see that as being a healthy direction for the game to be heading in largely because too many other FPS games use the Sniper class as the fulcrum upon which the entire metagame balances.

[Culex]

defekt, on February 16 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

SilentJacket, on February 15 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

mhm, well given that there is cover literally everywhere, getting kills in an SS without engaging in CQC is very hard

If you're viewing the Powershot from the perspective of merely racking up kills then yes, fair point, you are better off getting stuck in (if you're any good at SS CQB); however, one should not underestimate the power of forcing your target to bug out and repair, particularly in the context of objective based play.  Not only can Powershot instantly blunt the point of a co-ordinated attack but if you can force more than one enemy mech to bug out and repair -- not hard to do, hitscan weapons vs huge hitboxes -- the remaining three or four attackers end up moving in against a full team, or find themselves stalling until their team mates are back up and running during which time the SS Powershot regenerates and is forcing yet more of their contingent to bug out.  This effect is harsh enough with one SS but with two competent SSs in operation the enemy often can't make any meaningful progress at all.  The only way to stop Powershot from controlling the game is to fight fire with fire, i.e., bring in some of your own Powershooting robot jockeys, but I don't see that as being a healthy direction for the game to be heading in largely because too many other FPS games use the Sniper class as the fulcrum upon which the entire metagame balances.

This is a widely-held belief that fire has to be used to fight fire. Most players can crush an SS held point (even 2) by performing more flanks. Getting the jump on an SS from a jump jet off of Origin, or behind their side of the AA is enough to break this strength, and see them crumble. Too many try to approach from the front instead, which makes them feel hopeless.

Edited by Culex, February 16 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[defekt]

Culex, on February 16 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

defekt, on February 16 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

SilentJacket, on February 15 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

mhm, well given that there is cover literally everywhere, getting kills in an SS without engaging in CQC is very hard

If you're viewing the Powershot from the perspective of merely racking up kills then yes, fair point, you are better off getting stuck in (if you're any good at SS CQB); however, one should not underestimate the power of forcing your target to bug out and repair, particularly in the context of objective based play.  Not only can Powershot instantly blunt the point of a co-ordinated attack but if you can force more than one enemy mech to bug out and repair -- not hard to do, hitscan weapons vs huge hitboxes -- the remaining three or four attackers end up moving in against a full team, or find themselves stalling until their team mates are back up and running during which time the SS Powershot regenerates and is forcing yet more of their contingent to bug out.  This effect is harsh enough with one SS but with two competent SSs in operation the enemy often can't make any meaningful progress at all.  The only way to stop Powershot from controlling the game is to fight fire with fire, i.e., bring in some of your own Powershooting robot jockeys, but I don't see that as being a healthy direction for the game to be heading in largely because too many other FPS games use the Sniper class as the fulcrum upon which the entire metagame balances.

This is a widely-held belief that fire has to be used to fight fire. Most players can crush an SS held point (even 2) by performing more flanks. Getting the jump on an SS from a jump jet off of Origin, or behind their side of the AA is enough to break this strength, and see them crumble. Too many try to approach from the front instead, which makes them feel hopeless.

Against bads, yes.  Play against a tight team with two good SSs.  Total lockdown.

[dEd101]

defekt, on February 16 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Against bads, yes.  Play against a tight team with two good SSs.  Total lockdown.

This.

One SS isn't too much of a problem (especially when they are sitting at the back zoomed in the whole time) but two coordinated SS can shut down the battlefield if they coordinate properly. 2 unbuffed SS can almost wreck an a class with a slug+sabot combo from each (dead if a second slug hits). A B class is dead with 2 buffed SS + 1 slug. A C class is rendered completely useless and is forced to repair if hit by two SS.

The SS on it's own isn't anything special. In a coordinated team it is far too powerful. You may not get many kills but you effectively removed a single player from the battlefield with every slug+sabot because you force them to repair or die.

A shield helps but only if you stay in it (and as we know shields are a magnet for tows). You could boost when in their fov to make you harder to hit but then you either have to enter a battle with little fuel left or wait like a sitting duck for it to refill.You could flank them but how to you do that when they are packing radars+turrets_ They'll just run off to their teammates at the first sign of trouble. 1v1 an SS is fuzzy bunnied but in a team they are too much.