78 replies to this topic

[Gree]

draco7891, on January 25 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

Currently, Power Shot is MASSIVELY overpowered. By my rough calculations, a Sabot shot alone under the influence of the ability can do ~250 damage. This is laser-accurate hitscan damage. This is far beyond any other secondary and makes Sharpshooter incredibly powerful at all ranges and in all circumstances. Worse, there is no skill or technique to avoid the shot, as with other secondaries; you pop your mech out of cover for an instant and you are struck. This ability currently gives a single Sharpshooter the ability to nearly OHK an A-class, and 2 Sharpshooters working together to nearly OHK a C-class. The only counter is to snipe first, and that turns the whole world into snipers (which is boring and silly).

Proposal:

Change the Sharpshooter ability to one that gives bonus damage % based on the range of the shot. Make the ability last a substantial amount of time, with a long cooldown. Reduce the base damage of the Sharpshooter's weapons. Reward Sharpshooters that work in their long-range support niche, while removing the capability to work at all ranges all the time as is currently the case.

Also, consider making the Sabot a projectile-based secondary. Add in a little skill to using the weapon, bring it more in line with every other secondary in the game, and turn the Sharpshooter into the high-skill/high-reward platform it should be (instead of the camping du jour).

Draco

Clearly you never played an SS. Do you know how hard it is to play an long range role_ It requires a lot of skill. It's not like you're a bruiser or something. Most times we don't kill easily as you think, 80% of the chances we have are wasted, because the enemy just run away and repairs. We kill careless pilots who are repairing or running away in not such a good hp.
Power shot it's the only way that we can shoot down enemys as fast as a bruiser or a grenadier can. Please, consider that.
Reduce SS weapons damage_ I'm sorry, but the sabot does the same damage of tow rocket and the slug does the same damage of a flak cannon. There's no overpowered weapon on the SS.
The sabot_ A projectile weapon_ Throw it away at once!

[RedVan]

New ability is far less forgiving.  All it takes is the target to dodge, whether he knows he's the target or not, and poof, SS ability out the window for Xsec cool down.  Old ability, while less damage, was more forgiving.  Someone dodges, you still have time on the active ability to adjust.

[TwiceDead]

Gree, on January 26 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but the sabot does the same damage of tow rocket and the slug does the same damage of a flak cannon. There's no overpowered weapon on the SS.

mmmm not quite... Sabot scoped damage is 170, unscoped 136. ToW's are 185.

Gree, on January 26 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

The sabot_ A projectile weapon_ Throw it away at once!

A projectile weapon_!
Get that abomination out of here as fast as possible!

[Gree]

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Juodvarnis, on January 26 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Dread Lord, you should really understand that a mech that is meant for long range combat and at the moment is THE BEST mech for that, should NOT be able to kill anything in close quarters. If he gets ambushed, or snuck up on by a mech that specializes in close combat (and so is pretty much useless at long range) he DESERVES to die. It's called situational awareness.

Oh so you're saying make SS useless then. GOOD SUGGESTION!
A long range SS is useless. If an SS is not at point, it's useless. If it's not pursuing the objective, it's useless. You need to be mid-close range to be helpful, or else you'll just be deadweight.

Snipers will always be overpowered when someone skilled enough pilots them, that's fact for every game that is to date.

Oh stop it, you.

[Gree]

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Gree, on January 26 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but the sabot does the same damage of tow rocket and the slug does the same damage of a flak cannon. There's no overpowered weapon on the SS.

mmmm not quite... Sabot scoped damage is 170, unscoped 136. ToW's are 185.

Gree, on January 26 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

The sabot_ A projectile weapon_ Throw it away at once!

A projectile weapon_!
Get that abomination out of here as fast as possible!

KILL IT BEFORE IT LAY EGGS

[Command0Dude]

I find it funny this guy complains about SS being "too OP" now, when in most games, snipers can usually oneshot people at full health. In this game, nothing can one shot any mech, there's cover everywhere, and to top it off, everyone gets self heal. SS isn't OP, in fact, it's less powerful than most snipers typically are, since long range combat is so difficult in this game. And I'm sick and tired of people saying that snipers engaged in CQC "deserve" to die, because that's a load of bull.

[Scuzi]

I don't think they have to change the Power Shot ability. I'd rather say Sharpshooters in common needs a huge nerf due to it's opness. I have a lvl 25 ss myself and nearly every game I just make half of the enemy team rage-quit.
It's just stupidly op - I mean - you don't need skill with the ss, neither are you ever in any danger because you mostly opperate from big distances to the battle. And when I really get struck in melee it's no problem because the slug is strong at every range and for the sabot you just "quick-scope" or try a lucky unzoomed hit when the enemy is close enough.

Sabot is just way too strong and there is no way to dodge it. Imo the devs have to change it - nerf it's dmg or make the project slower so it is dodgeable (don't care if that is logical or not).

PS: Getting oneshot at 81% hp ( as a-class-mech) from a 10000m range is just not fun - and being always at 100% is just not an option.

Edited by Scuzi, February 09 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[SilentJacket]

Scuzi, on February 09 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

I don't think they have to change the Power Shot ability. I'd rather say Sharpshooters in common needs a huge nerf due to it's opness. I have a lvl 25 ss myself and nearly every game I just make half of the enemy team rage-quit.
It's just stupidly op - I mean - you don't need skill with the ss, neither are you ever in any danger because you mostly opperate from big distances to the battle. And when I really get struck in melee it's no problem because the slug is strong at every range and for the sabot you just "quick-scope" or try a lucky unzoomed hit when the enemy is close enough.

Sabot is just way too strong and there is no way to dodge it. Imo the devs have to change it - nerf it's dmg or make the project slower so it is dodgeable (don't care if that is logical or not).

PS: Getting oneshot at 81% hp ( as a-class-mech) from a 10000m range is just not fun - and being always at 100% is just not an option.

you're kidding, right_

as a side note, I find the new powershot ability to be somewhat useless

it doesn't last long enough for me to pick targets on the go, and any mech that is not a total fuzzy bunny knows that you shouldn't stand out in the open, so I can't line up those shots either

I liked ballistic barrage better :\

Edited by SilentJacket, February 09 2013 - 05:36 PM.

[Doktoreq]

I think a lot of complains comes from typical FPS mentality. If you look only on a K:D ratio (like a typical FPS player tends to do) a SS looks OP. But how many good sharpshooters can you see in deathmatch (I haven't seen many thus far). They can really shine in team modes, but you must follow two rules:

1. Your main role is to buy time for your teammates
2. Enemy with 10 hp is as dangerous as one with full health

Combining this rules with a few things (you can't oneshot any mech with full hp, you have long range and a respawn is longer than repair) and you finish with simple task list:

1. Kill anything that your teammates left alive and is trying to hide/repair (the more certain kill the better) - gives you lots of kills
2. If there is nothing leaving battlefield then pick at something entering it (make it easier to kill for teammates) - gives you lots of assists
3. Pick at enemy moving to your teammates position trying to force them to take cover, change route, repair (again buying time for teammates)
4. If you're taking hits - flee. Then figure who was shooting an from where and react according to situation (flee some more, engage CQC, return fire, repair, relocate etc.) - this reduces number of deaths

Basically speaking if not your teammates, you would have hard times killing anything because at long range somebody hit by SS just jumps behind cover and start to repair and SS is really not good in CQC (even more so against multiple enemies).
People rage about SS being OP but don't even try to figure any method of dealing with them. They don't even try to figure their position (there was a match on origin where I was standing in plain sight on the platform to the side of AA and it took 5 min and a lots of kills till people figured that I was there). I think when metagame shifts from typical FPS (I want more frags) to more tactical (I need to do that for my team to win) and people start understanding purposes of the mechs better there will be a lot less complains about X is OP.

[DeVact]

FINALLY after all the scout hate (i took that quite personally) somebody started to complain about the other class currently considered to be OP (in skilled hands that is).
May I turn your own words against you TwiceDead_ I will anyways
Power shot is definitely OP. Not because of the damage it inflicts BUT because of its short cooldown. Make it longer and everything is fine!

[RisorialScion]

Played both classes, scout and ss. Scout is way easier to play, stronger and I always come out with even higher scores than with SS. SS is actually one of the hardest to play classes because of the massive usage of A class mechs which are a pain in the butt to hit while dishing out massive damage before you even get to shoot at them. I even regularly farm SS with my reaper. I really think that the people complaining about SS never even played one.

[ScHizNiK]

Buff shields so they can easily be placed on yourself.

That is all.

[TwiceDead]

DeVact, on February 10 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

May I turn your own words against you TwiceDead_ I will anyways

Sure, go ahead!

Although I am not sure which words are being used against me...

[Akaon]

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Akaon, on January 26 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Pitr! Stop your blasphemy against the rocketeer! Even as a joke you can't suggest it should be nerfed!

But honestly, turning the guns in this game into projectiles with very high travel speeds might not be such a bad idea (note: very high travel speeds).

If this ever happens I demand lag compensation in the game. I don't want to compensate 0.1+ seconds as well as travel time again, I had enough of that fuzzy bunny while I was playing Global Agenda.

I think removing hitscan could be good, bad for lag yes, but you can't balance weapons on lag.

ApoC_101, on January 26 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Guys... it only gets to fire that sabot once during the powerup... if you do the math, the gained damage bonus is most likely about the same as what it used to be (it's just delivered quicker), and also probably less damage than say, the CRTs heat reduction (and resulting damage from sustained fire).

You seem to forget the massive benefits of high burst damage vs similar dps without that burst.

[TwiceDead]

Akaon, on February 11 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

TwiceDead, on January 26 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

If this ever happens I demand lag compensation in the game. I don't want to compensate 0.1+ seconds as well as travel time again, I had enough of that fuzzy bunny while I was playing Global Agenda.

I think removing hitscan could be good, bad for lag yes, but you can't balance weapons on lag.

I have nothing against projectile weapons as long as they are lag compensated. Battlefield 3 does it extremely well IMO.

Edited by TwiceDead, February 11 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[Allectus]

Just 25ed my SS.

I agree, it's a bit ridiculous how well it does at close range.  Only the absolute best A-class pilots that knew how to dodge exceptionally well were even remotely a concern and even then I downed them more often than not (when I wasn't lagging, anyway...lag is the true SS counter).  Anytime there was another decent SS with me on the team we just facerolled people.

I'd propose:
Reduce base damage of all SS weapons
Increase scoped-in damage modifier so that SS retains the same scoped damage potential of today
Significantly increase the scope-in time so that quickscoping at short range isn't terribly viable.<-- this is the real killer

[Akaon]

U8er, on January 26 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Akaon, on January 26 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

SS does feel overly powerful right now with the new ability, the damage is insane.

No, It doesn't. And it's not.

"The new ability makes it possible for average-to-good sharpshooters to defend themselves in medium range/cqc for two seconds each minute.  That's all.  Alternatively, it enables significant damage at range for two seconds each minute.  That's all."

All of the maps currently in rotation have enough cover and line of sight blockers to make any sort of long range dedicated play by the SS rendered almost completely null. Even using a light class mech, with the SS' ability and dual salvo, you're not going to be taken down instantly, leaving time to slide into cover which would easily be within dodging range if you're able to properly navigate a map and position yourself. You then have time to repair and make your way to the last known position that the SS fired from, all while keeping line of sight blockers between you and him/her. What then_ Most times, all that will take place within under a minute, the SS' ability still being on cool down when you encounter it. Even if not, you've repaired back to full health at this point or close enough to it that the dual salvo will not be capable of taking you down, leaving the SS' lack of comparative mobility and around cover splash to be it's downfall against anyone who has the slightest idea how to properly utilize cover efficiently in CQC or at medium range.

The SS does not need a nerf in any way, shape, or form. What's needed is a better understanding of what's required of a player to face off against a class that only an incredibly small number of people can actually pilot effectively at this moment.

First of all, the ability has a cooldown of something like 25-30 seconds.
Cover does not make the SS useless. In fact, it's what makes it so strong due to its poking.
How is almost oneshotting an A mech, forcing it to go into cover to repair, not a good, if not awesome, thing_
Also, the situation you sketch: you shoot A mech, he repairs, YOU STAND STILL DOING NOTHING IN THE MEANTIME AND WAIT FOR HIM TO REPAIR, MOVE TO YOU IN COVER AND LET HIM ENGAGE YOU AT SHORT RANGE WHERE YOU ARE AT YOUR WEAKEST. interesting, i've never tried that tactic yet .

The problem is that the SS can do an insane amount of burst damage, which is, quite frankly, rather easy to hit (aside from short range). In a one on one situation it doesn't matter all that much, but in teamgames it's huge.

[TwiceDead]

Both the slug and the sabot are the lowest DPS weapons in the game. If you can consistently hit an SS with all your arsenal no matter the mech, you will win. Nerfing their weapon base damage is a stupid idea, unless you up their firing rate to compensate. Suggesting a damage nerf is just a plain nerf to get it nerfed for the sake of nerfing something that is balanced. The real issue lies with it's ability, powershot. It allows you to outdamage any mech in CQC and emerge the victor.

You can argue that CQC is too easy, but facts are unless the opponent is a total scrub, the SS will die due to lower DPS output. SS tries to poke at you around corners less than 40 meters away from you, chase him, don't let him keep doing that unless you feel like dying. That the SS deals high burst at range is something that should be preserved, that is after all the classic sniper mechanic we have come to grow fond of, yet we equally hate it. As power shot currently stands it's ridiculously OP. I suggest making it range dependent. More range, more power.

Edited by TwiceDead, February 11 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Allectus]

TwiceDead, on February 11 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Both the slug and the sabot are the lowest DPS weapons in the game. If you can consistently hit an SS with all your arsenal no matter the mech, you will win. Nerfing their weapon base damage is a stupid idea, unless you up their firing rate to compensate. Suggesting a damage nerf is just a plain nerf to get it nerfed for the sake of nerfing something that is balanced. The real issue lies with it's ability, powershot. It allows you to outdamage any mech in CQC and emerge the victor.

You can argue that CQC is too easy, but facts are unless the opponent is a total scrub, the SS will die due to lower DPS output. SS tries to poke at you around corners less than 40 meters away from you, chase him, don't let him keep doing that unless you feel like dying. That the SS deals high burst at range is something that should be preserved, that is after all the classic sniper mechanic we have come to grow fond of, yet we equally hate it. As power shot currently stands it's ridiculously OP. I suggest making it range dependent. More range, more power.

Simply getting close to an SS should not be an instant and automatic win--you're proposal essentially ensures, absolutely, that the SS is ONLY useful in its given niche, while being useless outside of it.  While I'm certainly not opposed to hardline niche based balancing, that's not been the general balancing strategy undertaken anywhere else in Hawken.

My proposal accomplishes the exact same thing by making it exceptionally difficult to remain effective at short range.  Given a enough skill the SS can still hold it's own however since it still has the same damage potential at close range--the skill floor to do so is simply raised.by altering the scoping mechanics.

[Akaon]

TwiceDead, on February 11 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Both the slug and the sabot are the lowest DPS weapons in the game. If you can consistently hit an SS with all your arsenal no matter the mech, you will win. Nerfing their weapon base damage is a stupid idea, unless you up their firing rate to compensate. Suggesting a damage nerf is just a plain nerf to get it nerfed for the sake of nerfing something that is balanced. The real issue lies with it's ability, powershot. It allows you to outdamage any mech in CQC and emerge the victor.

You can argue that CQC is too easy, but facts are unless the opponent is a total scrub, the SS will die due to lower DPS output. SS tries to poke at you around corners less than 40 meters away from you, chase him, don't let him keep doing that unless you feel like dying. That the SS deals high burst at range is something that should be preserved, that is after all the classic sniper mechanic we have come to grow fond of, yet we equally hate it. As power shot currently stands it's ridiculously OP. I suggest making it range dependent. More range, more power.

I agree, tbh i think the SS deals good damage without using his ability. Using the ability however is just outright stupid. Abilities that just increase damage are kind of stupid anyway, also makes the mech itself harder to balance.