259 replies to this topic

[SilentJacket]

I have more problems with raiders vulturing when ever people try to heal, than with the SS

[Akrium]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 07 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Honestly, due to the high skill ceiling of the EOC, after playing around with that on the Raider for a few hours, that's been when it's felt the most balanced, because I feel like I'm actually working for my kills. It also give the Raider some interesting mid-range options.
The very nature of the EOC makes boosting and shooting with the ability quite difficult. It's also a bit dicey to use in CQC (damn it Toryne. I almost had you there!), and differing velocities of pucks and the Corsair means you have to aim each weapon individually on a regular basis. But if a mech doesn't feel overpowered only when you start using what is arguably the primary that requires the highest degree of skill in the game, I think that's a sign that there may be a problem.

Still, it just doesn't feel right when I unload an MIRV alpha strike and see an A-Class lose most of their health, or if I use a det, get completely instagibbed. It also doesn't feel right that a non-det MIRV alpha strike can send a C-Class running before they even get a chance to react. And it really doesn't feel right when I rush a B-Class, det/MIRV alpha strike, and any bit of AoE or a stray bullet takes them out. It really feels like it is harming the pacing of Hawken.

I still feel like Blitz needs to lose some of its utility. Being the best escape ability, the best travel ability, a great combat ability, and the best chasing ability is just too much at once. I love it. It's thrilling to use, and fun as hell, but it's just too much.

Now on to other topics besides the Raider.

Power Shot.
Hoooly smokes. That puppy needs to be toned down.

Reaper.
The Reaper still makes me sad. Sure, it's a decent support mech, but pretty much every other mech can support just as well, or better than the Reaper can. Also the ability is kind of pointless. The Reaper is one of those mechs where I forget it has an ability because it's so underwhelming.

Improvements to Turret Mode.
Blah. I'm sorry, but Turret mode still sucks, and I feel Brawler's mode is still poorly thought out. It makes you near invincible 1v1, but the second 2 people it becomes worse than useless, it's a deathtrap.

Reduction in AoE and AoE feathering.
Loving it. Hasn't affected me much since I've always gone for direct hits if I can, but I really feel it's helped reduce the "spamminess" of combat a bit. I also haven't had any "OMG that's such bull. I was way behind cover" sort of deaths. It's nice.

Very much agree with a lot of this though not quite all. But I think we both seriously feel that the TTK of the game is turning into something wicked fast. And that if you cannot blow someone up in 5 seconds you are currently using the wrong mech.

I only say the EOC needs balanced to do less direct damage because it is the combo starter to the majority of burst dealers. After using the EOC for a month+ I can say the skill ceiling isn't as high as it should be for the damage it does. Since when should a primary weapon do more burst damage than a secondary. To me that feels broken. The secondary should be the "burst" while the primary should be the more consistent  Still a balance to the EOC would help increase the TTK in the current meta of using bursty mechs. Which is also why I am not currently upset with the tankiness to the brawler because it is something that currently counters a lot of that broken burst right now. It does need attention too, but I wouldn't want it changed until after the change to all the burst mechs.

Also the bolt charged does do a lot of burst as well.. but it has fuzzy bunny for range due to spread and still does less damage than the grenade launcher. I don't like it mainly because of it's huge spread and I've come to really like the reFlak range and over all constant dmg.

But over all, we need to give this new mech about 2 weeks of use before we consider it OP. We need time for people to get used to the new meta and the mech in question. C class mechs in turret mode do counter it. The SS still rips it apart. People will need to learn to focus down the raider asap when he pops into the group, as the eoc/slug combo isn't as good as the X/flak combo when he is close.

[ReachH]

I do two weeks worth of thinking in two 2 hour slots over two days.

True story

[Akrium]

waftycrank, on March 08 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

But I think we both seriously feel that the TTK of the game is turning into something wicked fast. And that if you cannot blow someone up in 5 seconds you are currently using the wrong mech.

Right on brother.  *fistpump*

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

C class mechs in turret mode do counter it. The SS still rips it apart.

This thinking worries me.  And perhaps exemplifies what’s gone wrong.  Notion that silly bursts and abilities are balanced by sillier bursts and abilities is path strewn with cowpats from Devil’s own herd.  Accept more time needed but must act soon.  You do not need to steam closer to sighted iceberg to understand the danger.

The SS even with a balance to power shot is still a counter to the raider. They both actually counter each other. It isn't a situation of me saying that one broken mechanic beats another, it is more along the lines that the meta to SS is a counter to the meta that is Raider. The raider is a quick hitting in your face mech. Thus the tanky C class turret mode and the ranged damage that is the SS (i wish the reaper too) are good counters to that style.

A lot of things we have to consider for down the road is, where is this game going. With the introduction of higher player capped servers I am leaning towards the idea that the devs really want bigger depth in team play and less smaller fights. Thus having more specialized mechs will be more rewarding for that style of play down the road. So the SS, the Raider, and the Brawler; these specialized mechs are all going to have places in the meta down the road.

Obviously a lot is now in the hands of the map designers too. Because if you are going to have this sorta meta you need maps to bring out the meta. The new map is a good example that the devs understand this and they are trying to work towards that balanced map game play.

ReachH, on March 08 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

I do two weeks worth of thinking in two 2 hour slots over two days.

True story

I do 2 weeks worth of eating in 2 hour slots over 2 days

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

On the Raider.

The Raider with its ability has always been heralded as the fastest mech. And it should stay that way but its ability doesnt need to let it fire while boosting. That aspect of the ability quite frankly is not used very often because the ability itself is better used to get yourself into battle to help a team mate or GTFO and save your life. Just get rid of the fire on boost aspect.

For the weapons of the Raider the Reflak needs to generate slightly less heat while the Bolt needs to generate some more just like the Corsair needs to generate more heat. Im not sure about the damage reduction on the Corsair but if you were to reduce it about 5% should do. The range of the MIRV could be slightly reduced as well with a drop to about 60 meters which is a drop of 20 meters.

I currently have a lvl 20 Raider at the time of writing this which is almost 21 but have no intentions of using the Bolt or the EOC for the fact that I prefer the sustained close range damage of the Reflak.

These are my thoughts this far. BTW the new repair drone is awesome!

[Akrium]

waftycrank, on March 08 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Akrium, on March 07 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

The KLA-mirv should do just a hair less damage. Not much less mind you, but it does need to be toned down a bit more. I looked at it more after talking with ajk more about it and I can say it is a bit strong. But I am not talking a 10% reduction.. maybe 5% at most. The weapon is still only very strong while in cqc. Which mechs are going to have to learn is the place to not fight raiders, unless they are brawlers in turret mode.

Not playing where 90% of game plays is counter to Raider_  (And mega-burst stuff in general.)  I must be playing game wrong.  Only Powershot can do that.  Maybe I should learn to cap via telepresence.

Only mega-burst beats mega-burst.  You see where this ends_  Clue: Not in good place.  Game should change course while still can.  Go back to original concept.  Mech battles not chains of instakills.

Also understand that the raider is a new mech. So most ppl in the first week or two are going to be playing that mech. Also people will understand at some point that the current trial mech of the brawler is a counter to that raider. I've run into brawlers and they are just painful to fight. If they are smart enough to go turret mode I HAVE to run away. I will die otherwise. When any other C class goes turret I seriously have to consider the person's skill and if I want to stick around. Most of the time I am running away because even if I can kill him, I'll be left with little to no health and can be easily killed afterwards by one of their teammates coming to help the guy after the long fight. So it nets me no gain to stick around.

Burst countering burst is not a bad mechanic on a whole, the problem is the burst is a bit too high currently (thus your MEGA-burst). In many games burst can counter burst, and that is part of the team engagements and who pulls it off better. Yes this game has DM, but the game focus seems to be set more for team play not DM.

[HugeGuts]

waftycrank, on March 08 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Problem is they "counter" everything else en route.  Team play is enhanced through utility.  Not mega-damage.  Inventive use of tools and tricks is needed.  Counterplay is needed.  (Game has no counterplay at all_)  There is no style or cunning in instakilling.  Romans did not enjoy watching gladiators instantly keel over with aneurysms.  They enjoyed protracted and skilful fighting.  To see gruesome story play out.  No-on likes watching heavyweight boxing title match that ends with first punch.  Who watches motor races that are decided at first corner.  If eSports ambition is serious then this must change.

When the Reaper released, a lot of people agreed it is the best example of balancing the same weapon type between different weight classes. However, I heard it was the first and last time something like that would happen. If that's true, then I wonder why. The only way to begin balancing this game is adding weapons to the health and movement correlation, and the Reaper does this perfectly. It's only weak because almost all other classes still have Insta-melt weapons.

I know the developers want to diversify weight class roles. However, this desire is further away than ever before with the Raider patch. The current game is about quickly mashing burst damage into the other guy before he can do the same to you. If your mech can't 1v1 within a handful of seconds, then you're in the wrong mech.

Edited by HugeGuts, March 08 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[MojoNixon]

You can 1vs1 in any mech but it's going to rely more on you avoiding damage then about your weapons.  The dance is still there despite some added burst damage offerings, the key with burst damage is you have a window after they've missed to make up for it.  The argument for this pristine evenly matched balance method is BS though, this game is about getting the jump on your opponent and receiving no damage while annihilating him.   In team games it goes a step further with focus fire- you will always be on borrowed time if you can't mitigate that damage.

People are overreacting way to much when patches/new mechs come out.  These new mechs and abilities are things that EVERY player can make use of, but instead we have more cries for nerf on people who can't adapt.  I have 8 mechs of varying levels that I pretty much switch between every game and have had excellent matches this past week.  Everything from suicide style burst damage fast paced fights to drawn out tense peek a-boo.  Less typing and theory crafting and more practice I say.

[MojoNixon]

Them missing IS your skill, and you do still have partial hits with the mirv.

[MojoNixon]

Make your point- your argument right now is : Nothing can survive my Raiders secondary weapon + a second shot and a direct hit from my detonater and probably even using your ability.

I could say the same thing with any mech that's completely fresh.  

And if your fighting fair then your doing it wrong

[Mechsupport]

MojoNixon, on March 08 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

I have 8 mechs of varying levels that I pretty much switch between every game and have had excellent matches this past week.  Everything from suicide style burst damage fast paced fights to drawn out tense peek a-boo.  Less typing and theory crafting and more practice I say.

Honest question from a newbie: do you have a video (yours or anyone's) that demonstrates how to play CRT in the current patch_  I only got the game last week, but I consistently placed top three by playing deliberately and avoiding making mistakes.  After the patch, it seems like there's no more place for that sort of play, and the entire game revolves around twitch and burst.  My FLAK scout feels less envelope-pushing burst specialist and more minimum-amount-of-burst-to-play, and my CRT is just outclassed entirely.

In particular, one effective strategy was to use the AR and TOW to stand off opponents at long range , and if the enemy tried to close I'd have that time to bring their health down to the point where I'd still have the advantage when they got inside my ideal range to do the CQC dance.  In the case of the SS or other long range specialist I could switch the roles, and it would come down to who was better at anticipating the other's movements.  This week, though, it seems like the SS is just flat out superior at all ranges, due it its hitscan+burst payload, while the Raider WTFPWNs me once it gets in range, regardless of me whittling him down during the time he spent closing the gap.  When facing off against other mechs, I still have fun, but being constantly threatened by the prospect of the game turning from Mechwarrior to double-shotgun-guy-Call-of-Duty is really ruining my enjoyment of the game anyway.

After the patch, I'm pretty close to dropping the game entirely due to how outclassed my mech feels, and how burst-y the game feels.  If anyone's got examples of winning play from a CRT or similar, I'd love to see it and learn, because I really like how the game plays played last week.

[Webcreature]

Love the scoreboard targets and nemesis system

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[RentAKnight]

Webcreature, on March 08 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Love the scoreboard targets and nemesis system

lol pub stomp much_  they introduced MMR servers so that you wouldn't do this.