259 replies to this topic

[HugeGuts]

If one good thing came out of this patch, then it's Facility. Finally having a nearly symmetrical map with a good amount of open and close areas is going to be crucial for class balance testing,

Edited by HugeGuts, March 08 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[TheChaffeemancer]

HugeGuts, on March 08 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

If one good thing came out of this patch, then it's Facility. Finally having a nearly symmetrical map with a good amount of open and close areas is going to be crucial for class balance testing,

Kiwi was going to quote the Flintstones about the kind of time a sharpshooter would have on such a map, but then Kiwi realized it would get censored/be interpreted as crass and now Kiwi is thinking about how language can change in such a short time.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, March 08 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Beemann, on March 08 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

ppl are blaming the mirv because it is new.

No, people are blaming the MIRV because it does 60 damage more than the TOW, which contributes to an overall score of too damned high
Again, charged bolt+MIRV = 1 damage less than power shot's initial burst

I'm sorry Bee, but...


http://cdn.memegener...0x/35907615.jpg

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, March 08 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Akrium]

/removed because it was wrong in a way that needed deleted.

Edited by Akrium, March 09 2013 - 03:58 AM.

[Xenogenesis]

Cpt_Kill_Jack, on March 08 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

On the Raider.

The Raider with its ability has always been heralded as the fastest mech. And it should stay that way but its ability doesnt need to let it fire while boosting. That aspect of the ability quite frankly is not used very often because the ability itself is better used to get yourself into battle to help a team mate or GTFO and save your life. Just get rid of the fire on boost aspect.

For the weapons of the Raider the Reflak needs to generate slightly less heat while the Bolt needs to generate some more just like the Corsair needs to generate more heat. Im not sure about the damage reduction on the Corsair but if you were to reduce it about 5% should do. The range of the MIRV could be slightly reduced as well with a drop to about 60 meters which is a drop of 20 meters.

I currently have a lvl 20 Raider at the time of writing this which is almost 21 but have no intentions of using the Bolt or the EOC for the fact that I prefer the sustained close range damage of the Reflak.

These are my thoughts this far. BTW the new repair drone is awesome!

I feel like lowering the range is unnecessary (a 20 meter drop would be 25% of its range.) It needs a lot more spread especially at max distance and maybe a slight drop in damage to 200-220.

In regards to how much damage they do with eoc, I feel like that's the fault of the eoc and that needs to be nerfed or changed in and of itself.

[TheChaffeemancer]

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

if the guy is point blank..

You are also comparing 2 shots + an ability from a ranged class to 2 shots + charge time + ability and an item from a point blank class that none of it's damage is hitscan and that requires more risk to pull off.

h0B0, on March 05 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

This, while not the absolute best test of spread, is a good indication of spread on that. Does that look like the spread of something that suddenly will fail to connect beyond point blank_

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Yeah a lot of things can be close to power shot when you combo them up over time and in the right conditions.

But this is not "over time" this is the Alpha strike, aka when the battle starts and Mr. Raider fires all his guns at once. He does not have to use an ability with a cool down to deal this damage, he can deal it every time his secondary is loaded. We said the sharpshooter damage was cray-cray on something with a 30 second cool down, this is arguably worse as there is no cool down on MIRV super damage.

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Done here.. this is laughable. You've reach a level of being illogical that I just simply won't waste my time fighting.

"I've insulted everything I can think of about your argument and am now going to leave."

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, March 08 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Bratwurst]

I am happy that I can catch up to an A-Class with my Raider, but chasing a scout is NOT the best decision you could make, Raiders IMO are better off flanking, hit and run, and wolfpacks with other B-Class mechs. They have the speed yes, but only for a few seconds, the Raider isn't exactly good on a 1v1 battle as it lacks the DPS.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Beemann, on March 08 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

ppl are blaming the mirv because it is new.

No, people are blaming the MIRV because it does 60 damage more than the TOW, which contributes to an overall score of too damned high
Again, charged bolt+MIRV = 1 damage less than power shot's initial burst

if the guy is point blank.. where as the power shot can be fire from anywhere on the map.

You are also comparing 2 shots + an ability from a ranged class to 2 shots + charge time + ability and an item from a point blank class that none of it's damage is hitscan and that requires more risk to pull off.

apples and orange dear sir. It's like if I say that a eoc + hellfire + det + a quick round from an eoc out damages the initial damage from power shot. It's true... and since we are not caring about apples to apples it makes just as much sense as your argument.

Yeah a lot of things can be close to power shot when you combo them up over time and in the right conditions. Congrats you proved nothing other than you don't like the mechanic and you are trying to prove how it is broken by comparing it to something it isn't.

Done here.. this is laughable. You've reach a level of being illogical that I just simply won't waste my time fighting.

Um... What_
Beemann is comparing Bolt/MIRV alone to PS Slug/Sabot. That means he's comparing 2 shots to 2 shots + ability. That means the Raider is capable of unloading near-instagib damage on a regular basis without items or abilities.

Anticipating when to use a charged shot is much the same as anticipating when to activate PS. They're variances on the same basic principle of predicting when the optimal time to use it is. So while it may be harder to pull off in the first place, that risk is lost with the fact you get many more chances to try again. It's not like the Bolt's charge time is takes very long. It's short enough that you can charge it while actively in combat, without really being at a disadvantage. Even the EOC's charge time isn't too problematic.

The risk of a Raider trying to do this in the front lines_ Fairly minimal. I mean, that's the purpose of the Raider. To get in close and do lots of damage. Their ability even gives them a "get out of jail free card" in case the biological waste hits the fan.

And let's not forget this important point.
Just because one mech has an overpowered burst, does not automatically mean it is okay for another mech to have it. That is not how good balance works.

Please don't dismiss other people's statements as laughable and illogical, when you aren't even demonstrating a clear understanding of what they wrote, and completely alter their argument into something they've never said. And if you are going to start citing complexities such as charge-times and ease of use, then you should also be considering factors like the much longer cooldown of Power Shot in comparison to the reload of weapons, how easy it is for the Raider to get in and out of CQC range, how much easier it is for a Raider to get LoS and many other things.

Your representative "formulas" are highly misleading (actually, the Raider "formula" is outright false) and biased in a manner that favors making the SS Power Shot look bad.

[Mechsupport]

Akrium, I don't see how pointing out that there are other high burst mechs detracts from the point that there is too much burst in this patch, and the raider is the biggest offender.  The sharpshooter brings too much extreme range hitscan burst, the raider brings too much highly armored, super fast burst, and it's starting to sound like there's a consensus that having the EOC at all allows for too much burst when combined with a good secondary.  Do you disagree_

[Akrium]

Actually I am not sure why i read it as +det. I've been sick and I fully apologize to beemann.

But I still think the mirv should be doing more damage than the tow. plain and simple. I do agree it needs toned down a bit.. because I also do not like the current ttk. But I also feel that the mirv being a close range weapon, that only has 1 function as a shotgun, should do more damage than the long range tow that has utility. The KLA is a very weak secondary for fighting middle-far ranged players. It's meta is to be used in close proximity.

That being said, if we want to nerf the mirv because it is doing too much damage (like the vulcan used to), all the secondaries need to be brought in line so it still is the most damaging secondary in the mirv form. It is the closest combat secondary in the game. It should be doing the most damage of all the secondaries. I consider it along the lines of vulcan -> smc -> ar in the idea of range vs power done. This also means the sabot should be the weakest (which it is and isn't, no scope to scope).

Again the problem is NOT the mirv.. it is the current set up of the weapons in general. For the mirv to be the unique weapon it is, it needs to have it's place doing the most damage.

So you guys want a change, start suggesting a massive revamp of all the secondaries and their damage output.

[Bratwurst]

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

Actually I am not sure why i read it as +det. I've been sick and I fully apologize to beemann.

But I still think the mirv should be doing more damage than the tow. plain and simple. I do agree it needs toned down a bit.. because I also do not like the current ttk. But I also feel that the mirv being a close range weapon, that only has 1 function as a shotgun, should do more damage than the long range tow that has utility. The KLA is a very weak secondary for fighting middle-far ranged players. It's meta is to be used in close proximity.

That being said, if we want to nerf the mirv because it is doing too much damage (like the vulcan used to), all the secondaries need to be brought in line so it still is the most damaging secondary in the mirv form. It is the closest combat secondary in the game. It should be doing the most damage of all the secondaries. I consider it along the lines of vulcan -> smc -> ar in the idea of range vs power done. This also means the sabot should be the weakest (which it is and isn't, no scope to scope).

Again the problem is NOT the mirv.. it is the current set up of the weapons in general. For the mirv to be the unique weapon it is, it needs to have it's place doing the most damage.

So you guys want a change, start suggesting a massive revamp of all the secondaries and their damage output.

You sir make an excellent point on the MIRV, it is basically a shotgun, and the fact the grenade mode is a hit and miss weapon, the MIRV should deal the most damage as it is a close range weapon, not to mention it does not have that much AoE.

[Pirits]

I haven't been able to use my raider too much due to a 'one life left' glitch where after the first death I can walk boost jump and use items, no radar, no vitals.

So I only have the ricochet cannon, and I like it. Can't be up in someones face or take all those fun risks due to my 'hard-core' glitch.

After seeing some of this stuff I am worried other mechs with shot-guns will be slightly useless...

Why'd I get that scout_

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

But I still think the mirv should be doing more damage than the tow. plain and simple. I do agree it needs toned down a bit.. because I also do not like the current ttk. But I also feel that the mirv being a close range weapon, that only has 1 function as a shotgun, should do more damage than the long range tow that has utility. The KLA is a very weak secondary for fighting middle-far ranged players. It's meta is to be used in close proximity.

That being said, if we want to nerf the mirv because it is doing too much damage (like the vulcan used to), all the secondaries need to be brought in line so it still is the most damaging secondary in the mirv form. It is the closest combat secondary in the game. It should be doing the most damage of all the secondaries. I consider it along the lines of vulcan -> smc -> ar in the idea of range vs power done. This also means the sabot should be the weakest (which it is and isn't, no scope to scope).

Again the problem is NOT the mirv.. it is the current set up of the weapons in general. For the mirv to be the unique weapon it is, it needs to have it's place doing the most damage.

So you guys want a change, start suggesting a massive revamp of all the secondaries and their damage output.

You can knock off up to 40 or so damage (I'm not saying it needs to go down that far) and it would still be superior to a TOW in terms of damage (inside it's optimal range, of course).

You can actually nerf it's damage without touching the other weapons, and still have it be the best CQC secondary. It does something like 30% more damage than a TOW. It's nearly a third more powerful than the next CQC viable secondary.
That's a lot of damage.

[Emperor1994]

Listen..the Raider IS a powerhouse at close range simply because it was INTENDED to be. However..at higher range (80+) is kinda USELESS. The grenade is inferior to a TOW and the primary deals lousy damage. I get picked apart by raiders,SS or Bruisers all the time.
Even tough i score some kills..i  die almost every time. So it's a high risk / high pay play. Even scouts can KIte you if you're outta fuel.
Yes,the Raider is one of the best in CQC..but sucks at everything else. Hell..even a good SS can be OP in CQC ,whereas you are useless at long range. ( i use grenade for fun mostly).

[Akrium]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 08 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

But I still think the mirv should be doing more damage than the tow. plain and simple. I do agree it needs toned down a bit.. because I also do not like the current ttk. But I also feel that the mirv being a close range weapon, that only has 1 function as a shotgun, should do more damage than the long range tow that has utility. The KLA is a very weak secondary for fighting middle-far ranged players. It's meta is to be used in close proximity.

That being said, if we want to nerf the mirv because it is doing too much damage (like the vulcan used to), all the secondaries need to be brought in line so it still is the most damaging secondary in the mirv form. It is the closest combat secondary in the game. It should be doing the most damage of all the secondaries. I consider it along the lines of vulcan -> smc -> ar in the idea of range vs power done. This also means the sabot should be the weakest (which it is and isn't, no scope to scope).

Again the problem is NOT the mirv.. it is the current set up of the weapons in general. For the mirv to be the unique weapon it is, it needs to have it's place doing the most damage.

So you guys want a change, start suggesting a massive revamp of all the secondaries and their damage output.

You can knock off up to 40 or so damage (I'm not saying it needs to go down that far) and it would still be superior to a TOW in terms of damage (inside it's optimal range, of course).

You can actually nerf it's damage without touching the other weapons, and still have it be the best CQC secondary. It does something like 30% more damage than a TOW. It's nearly a third more powerful than the next CQC viable secondary.
That's a lot of damage.

This is why I was saying 220-230 damage instead of 240, somewhere between 10-5% reduction ish. I'm not going to go look for where I quoted that because good god I need to stop trying to get people to whine about this patch. And this thread is totally derailed, except for the fact that the Bolt is was being compared to to being part of the problem when it is just the flak cannon with the option to shoot faster for less damage.

waftycrank, on March 09 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

Again the problem is NOT the mirv.. it is the current set up of the weapons in general. For the mirv to be the unique weapon it is, it needs to have it's place doing the most damage.

KLA has versatility.  Long range direct hit lobby thing.  Short range shredder.  That should have been it.  Uniqueness achieved.  Job done.  Have a cookie.  Did not need versatility AND hardest hitting short range.  (AND hardest hitting burst Primary.  What are HWK smoking_)  That is too much.  Piling 'cool stuff' on one weapon only harms future weapon individuality.

You have to understand that while the KLA is versatile, the kla-nade and the kla-mirv are not. You cannot treat it as one weapon but instead two separate secondaries because while you are using one you can NOT use the other. The raider is the first mech to get 2 secondaries. One is a mid-long range slug that is meh at best and the other is a multi explosive projectile for cqc which actually is good. Which makes sense because this mech is meant to be in your face.

Basically this mech is forcing players to learn a new style of play. Some of you are not handling this as well as others. Like I made the example before, would you want to fight someone using the vulcan in cqc or in a more optimal range for your weapon that isn't optimal for his. The second choice is what you try for obviously. You need to take advantage of his "advantage" by denying him his advantage and making it a disadvantage. Yes the raider has an ability to close the gap but it isn't up 24/7. And it isn't an I win button either. Scouts are very good at popping their ability and dodging so much that it is hard to use the raider ability to great success. C class mechs can go into turret and soak a ton of damage while still dishing out theirs. There are counters to this "too good" mech. Raiders and Sharpshooters counter as well because they deny the mech before he even gets to them. Granted they are a double edge sword, because it is a counter that can be countered by the raider as well.

Widen your gaze and think outside the box. This mech isn't as OP as many believe it is. They simply haven't figure out how to fight it yet.

[TheChaffeemancer]

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

You have to understand that while the KLA is versatile, the kla-nade and the kla-mirv are not. You cannot treat it as one weapon but instead two separate secondaries because while you are using one you can NOT use the other. The raider is the first mech to get 2 secondaries. One is a mid-long range slug that is meh at best and the other is a multi explosive projectile for cqc which actually is good. Which makes sense because this mech is meant to be in your face.

1. Of course the individual modes of a dual-purpose, versatile weapon aren't versatile individually, it'd be bloody stupid.

2. We can treat it as one weapon, the switch time is probably a second long and you can do it while doing literally anything. Walking_ Switch. Reloading, can switch. Dodging, Can switch. Boosting, can switch. Repairing_ You bet your bum you can switch.

3. You're underestimating the grenade. It is quite easy to get direct hits with and it does have splash damage. If you can lead a target, you're going to get a hit.

4. There is still such a good thing at being too good at its role, regardless of drawbacks (which the Mirv is).

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Basically this mech is forcing players to learn a new style of play. Some of you are not handling this as well as others. Like I made the example before, would you want to fight someone using the vulcan in cqc or in a more optimal range for your weapon that isn't optimal for his.

Go go ad hominen! We think that it's OP, therefore we can't adapt!

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

The second choice is what you try for obviously. You need to take advantage of his "advantage" by denying him his advantage and making it a disadvantage. Yes the raider has an ability to close the gap but it isn't up 24/7. And it isn't an I win button either.

If the raider can't use his ability then it is not a "disadvantage" he is still a B-Class with all the mobility/durability that brings, he is not suddenly slower or squishier or anything else. Unless you're at 200- HP when you try to escape, you're getting away with that ability, It's a get out of jail free card, pretty much, so while it may not be an "I win button" in all situations, it can be an "I don't lose" button..

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Scouts are very good at popping their ability and dodging so much that it is hard to use the raider ability to great success.

Raider moves at dodge speed while walking with his ability active. The scout is still only moving in bursts.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

C class mechs can go into turret and soak a ton of damage while still dishing out theirs.

If a raider dies to a turreted C it was either A: He wasn't paying attention or B: Someone else was shooting the raider in the bum. A is the raider being bad, which should not be factored into balance and B is two people to counter one, which is also bad for balance.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

There are counters to this "too good" mech. Raiders and Sharpshooters counter as well because they deny the mech before he even gets to them. Granted they are a double edge sword, because it is a counter that can be countered by the raider as well.

And the sharpshooter is seen as OP. Do you not see the issue with using OP mechs to counter OP mechs_ It leads to everything else being inadequate.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Widen your gaze and think outside the box. This mech isn't as OP as many believe it is. They simply haven't figure out how to fight it yet.

And when you don't consider what you say, it's easy to think you're right.

Also, didn't you say that you were done here_ Kiwi's fairly certain you did.

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 08 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

But I still think the mirv should be doing more damage than the tow. plain and simple. I do agree it needs toned down a bit.. because I also do not like the current ttk. But I also feel that the mirv being a close range weapon, that only has 1 function as a shotgun, should do more damage than the long range tow that has utility. The KLA is a very weak secondary for fighting middle-far ranged players. It's meta is to be used in close proximity.

That being said, if we want to nerf the mirv because it is doing too much damage (like the vulcan used to), all the secondaries need to be brought in line so it still is the most damaging secondary in the mirv form. It is the closest combat secondary in the game. It should be doing the most damage of all the secondaries. I consider it along the lines of vulcan -> smc -> ar in the idea of range vs power done. This also means the sabot should be the weakest (which it is and isn't, no scope to scope).

Again the problem is NOT the mirv.. it is the current set up of the weapons in general. For the mirv to be the unique weapon it is, it needs to have it's place doing the most damage.

So you guys want a change, start suggesting a massive revamp of all the secondaries and their damage output.

You can knock off up to 40 or so damage (I'm not saying it needs to go down that far) and it would still be superior to a TOW in terms of damage (inside it's optimal range, of course).

You can actually nerf it's damage without touching the other weapons, and still have it be the best CQC secondary. It does something like 30% more damage than a TOW. It's nearly a third more powerful than the next CQC viable secondary.
That's a lot of damage.

This is why I was saying 220-230 damage instead of 240, somewhere between 10-5% reduction ish. I'm not going to go look for where I quoted that because good god I need to stop trying to get people to whine about this patch. And this thread is totally derailed, except for the fact that the Bolt is was being compared to to being part of the problem when it is just the flak cannon with the option to shoot faster for less damage.

waftycrank, on March 09 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Akrium, on March 08 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

Again the problem is NOT the mirv.. it is the current set up of the weapons in general. For the mirv to be the unique weapon it is, it needs to have it's place doing the most damage.

KLA has versatility.  Long range direct hit lobby thing.  Short range shredder.  That should have been it.  Uniqueness achieved.  Job done.  Have a cookie.  Did not need versatility AND hardest hitting short range.  (AND hardest hitting burst Primary.  What are HWK smoking_)  That is too much.  Piling 'cool stuff' on one weapon only harms future weapon individuality.

You have to understand that while the KLA is versatile, the kla-nade and the kla-mirv are not. You cannot treat it as one weapon but instead two separate secondaries because while you are using one you can NOT use the other. The raider is the first mech to get 2 secondaries. One is a mid-long range slug that is meh at best and the other is a multi explosive projectile for cqc which actually is good. Which makes sense because this mech is meant to be in your face.

Basically this mech is forcing players to learn a new style of play. Some of you are not handling this as well as others. Like I made the example before, would you want to fight someone using the vulcan in cqc or in a more optimal range for your weapon that isn't optimal for his. The second choice is what you try for obviously. You need to take advantage of his "advantage" by denying him his advantage and making it a disadvantage. Yes the raider has an ability to close the gap but it isn't up 24/7. And it isn't an I win button either. Scouts are very good at popping their ability and dodging so much that it is hard to use the raider ability to great success. C class mechs can go into turret and soak a ton of damage while still dishing out theirs. There are counters to this "too good" mech. Raiders and Sharpshooters counter as well because they deny the mech before he even gets to them. Granted they are a double edge sword, because it is a counter that can be countered by the raider as well.

Widen your gaze and think outside the box. This mech isn't as OP as many believe it is. They simply haven't figure out how to fight it yet.

I have found the Bruiser to be an observably effective counter to the Raider. If the Raider gets hit with one volley from the Hellfire before he starts firing hes in deep trouble. Bruisers have been my Raiders bane of existence since day 2 of the Raider Update.

TheChaffeemancer, on March 09 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

You have to understand that while the KLA is versatile, the kla-nade and the kla-mirv are not. You cannot treat it as one weapon but instead two separate secondaries because while you are using one you can NOT use the other. The raider is the first mech to get 2 secondaries. One is a mid-long range slug that is meh at best and the other is a multi explosive projectile for cqc which actually is good. Which makes sense because this mech is meant to be in your face.

1. Of course the individual modes of a dual-purpose, versatile weapon aren't versatile individually, it'd be bloody stupid.

2. We can treat it as one weapon, the switch time is probably a second long and you can do it while doing literally anything. Walking_ Switch. Reloading, can switch. Dodging, Can switch. Boosting, can switch. Repairing_ You bet your bum you can switch.
The Devs do not treat it as one weapon. When I was suggesting some tweaks durring a match to a dev they asked Grenade or Shotgun Corsair. They treat it as a 2 weapon system for code work where they put in the values.

3. You're underestimating the grenade. It is quite easy to get direct hits with and it does have splash damage. If you can lead a target, you're going to get a hit.
Aye you need to lead the target but also dont forget that after a certain distance which I have looked at but dont know that distance it acts as if someone just attached an anvil to the grenade and it just starts dropping like a rock. And yes it does have splash damage but it feathers very quickly.

4. There is still such a good thing at being too good at its role, regardless of drawbacks (which the Mirv is).
The MIRV has a finite range where at x range it blows up and will not go further, also when it blows up or when part of them hit something their splash range is about 1 meter. They do not do splash at all unless you are standing basically on them. If you try and splash damage yourself you have to be directly up against the wall you are firing at or right on top of the spot on the floor you are shooting because they just dont have splash range period. They must hit their target to do damage.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Basically this mech is forcing players to learn a new style of play. Some of you are not handling this as well as others. Like I made the example before, would you want to fight someone using the vulcan in cqc or in a more optimal range for your weapon that isn't optimal for his.

Go go ad hominen! We think that it's OP, therefore we can't adapt!
People are already adapting. Its happened and its becoming more balanced from the regular players perspective every day. I have met a resounding number of people that dont think its overpowered and do say they think its balanced.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

The second choice is what you try for obviously. You need to take advantage of his "advantage" by denying him his advantage and making it a disadvantage. Yes the raider has an ability to close the gap but it isn't up 24/7. And it isn't an I win button either.

If the raider can't use his ability then it is not a "disadvantage" he is still a B-Class with all the mobility/durability that brings, he is not suddenly slower or squishier or anything else. Unless you're at 200- HP when you try to escape, you're getting away with that ability, It's a get out of jail free card, pretty much, so while it may not be an "I win button" in all situations, it can be an "I don't lose" button..
Isnt that exactly what a lot of scouts use their ability for. GTFOing out of the fight and while at regular boost speed they have extra range because they can immediately refill their fuel and go even further than their pursuer. The Raider ability is used for the same except instead of range of escape they use Speed.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Scouts are very good at popping their ability and dodging so much that it is hard to use the raider ability to great success.

Raider moves at dodge speed while walking with his ability active. The scout is still only moving in bursts.
One would be stupid to use the ability while in combat unless it hadn't ended yet in which they cant control that. The ability raises all speeds of the mech (not weapons) including turning speed which can make aiming extremely disorienting and difficult. Pretty much everyone agrees only use the ability to escape and get into battle, not during so stop trying to use it as if we want to use it while fighting.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

C class mechs can go into turret and soak a ton of damage while still dishing out theirs.

If a raider dies to a turreted C it was either A: He wasn't paying attention or B: Someone else was shooting the raider in the bum. A is the raider being bad, which should not be factored into balance and B is two people to counter one, which is also bad for balance.
I suppose your still going that notion that Turret mode is useless. News flash its not useless when certain tactics are applied which are very different from normal tactics. Turret mode has been used a lot more since the last patch and its becoming a valid tactic for area denial because to get area you must kill the C class in turret mode. And generally to do that against a skilled C class pilot bring 2 mechs.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

There are counters to this "too good" mech. Raiders and Sharpshooters counter as well because they deny the mech before he even gets to them. Granted they are a double edge sword, because it is a counter that can be countered by the raider as well.

And the sharpshooter is seen as OP. Do you not see the issue with using OP mechs to counter OP mechs_ It leads to everything else being inadequate.
The SS is not the only counter. You can also use a Bruiser with deadly effectiveness to counter a Raider (Vulcan is preferred for this).  See my response to Akrium which should be at the top of this massive quote.

Akrium, on March 09 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Widen your gaze and think outside the box. This mech isn't as OP as many believe it is. They simply haven't figure out how to fight it yet.

And when you don't consider what you say, it's easy to think you're right.

Also, didn't you say that you were done here_ Kiwi's fairly certain you did.

These are my observations over the last few days of playing and just plain asking people what they think.  Also people are taking TTK off of pretty much just the A class which were considered the kings of the battle field. And now that there is a mech that specializes in killing A classes people are complaining about it. But werent we complaining about A classes being the preferred mechs. Im my opinion the A's have been king because there hasn't been enough difference in health pools between the classes. I have have quite a few people agree with me that the difference in health should be a big difference of the classes. A's should have their 500 with B's having 700 to start and C's 900 to start giving an even 200 point difference between them. A classes are squishy and C classes are hardened monsters where B classes enjoy what they should being a comfortable middle.

A classes as they stood before the introduction of the Raider feared nothing. In a way they are starting to get back to that way. The battlefield is refreshingly diverse right now with A classes, B classes, and C classes being used every match.

[Rebel_B]

My issue (other than comparing 2 OP Mechs) is:
If Raider gets hit long range with an SS with PS it can find cover and repair. Result: the Raider doesn't die.
If a Raider is up close on an SS. Result: the SS dies.
It isn't even a contest if we replace SS with a Reaper. Therefore unbalance exists.

There is enough cover to allow the Raider to close the distance on these maps, but there will never be enough cover for the SS to get away (especially not against the Raider ability). Don't expect the SS to chase down the Raider to finish it off once it goes behind cover either.

[TheChaffeemancer]

Cpt_Kill_Jack, on March 09 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

These are my observations over the last few days of playing and just plain asking people what they think.  Also people are taking TTK off of pretty much just the A class which were considered the kings of the battle field. And now that there is a mech that specializes in killing A classes people are complaining about it. But werent we complaining about A classes being the preferred mechs. Im my opinion the A's have been king because there hasn't been enough difference in health pools between the classes.

There's a problem with that thinking. Anything that can kill an A class faster can kill anything else faster. An HP pool doesn't mean that much when the enemy is doing significantly more damage then you.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, March 09 2013 - 10:40 AM.