139 replies to this topic

[CCCM89]

heh, all this talk of "Facts"  on the first page.  I'm sure there's an Ys Origins joke in here somewhere...

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

Quote

The difference between hitscan tracking and leading slow projectiles is pretty considerable and accounts for a decent amount of skill if you're going for optimal output on both, hitting two hitscan guns or two projectile weapons is considerably less skill intensive or thought provoking. Should there be a difference in effectiveness to reflect this_

Intelligent point, however you over looked something v important...

Dual SMG Beserker for example would over-heat like a boss, even with internals, and optimization points, and even the 1 use extinguisher would only work once (and you aren't taking one of the other 2 consumables).

however....it would maybe kill one target in the process.....oh yeah.....i can FEEL the adrenaline rush mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm addictive mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm £££

Yet...it would still be balanced.

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, March 12 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Beemann]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 12 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Quote

The difference between hitscan tracking and leading slow projectiles is pretty considerable and accounts for a decent amount of skill if you're going for optimal output on both, hitting two hitscan guns or two projectile weapons is considerably less skill intensive or thought provoking. Should there be a difference in effectiveness to reflect this_

Intelligent point, however you over looked something v important...

Dual SMG Beserker for example would over-heat like a boss, even with internals, and optimization points, and even the 1 use extinguisher would only work once (and you aren't taking one of the other 2 consumables).

however....it would maybe kill one target in the process.....oh yeah.....i can FEEL the adrenaline rush mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm addictive mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm £££

Yet...it would still be balanced.

Controlling fire with current heat generation numbers (particularly with automatics) really isnt that hard
Additionally, there's a chance that it would only become worse in that regard (meaning easier to manage heat) with 2x SMG's were it to be implemented and balanced against something like 2x RevGL's (which would be 40 nades and 3040 damage by overheat if we assume people just keep charging you)
Additionally, we'd be exacerbating certain issues. A Slug and Slug Sharpie would actually do MORE damage in powershot than your garden-variety Sharpshooter after the initial burst

I think we need to move in the opposite direction. Weapon combinations should be geared towards greater diversity and versatility

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

Correct Class specific options will solve those problems. Each mech having 4 possible combo's will not break the game. Right now the problem is tow-launcher online. ....and the raider being silly op XD

[Sylhiri]

I'm pretty sure the first duel welding thread didn't go so well, good to see you came back to try again after a few weeks Knightmare, will you be staying for long this time_

[Ezpikins]

Raiders are NOT op. I have one and let me tell ya through the first 4 levels so far it's a big walking target. Sure if you get absolutely lucky and surprise someone who just got half the life kicked out of them_, you might kill them if you have the flak setting up the long range grenade takes what seems 10 minutes to reload and the flak cannon does good damage but heats up in two shots leaving you holding your bolts while the enemy empties into you.

I'm not impressed, at least not with the lower levels. The EMP Which is the default speacial weapon on the Raider is useless. Common who will stand still in a green bubble and let their energy be tapped_ If you would_ let me freind you in game I need a pigeon. What the DEV TEAM needs to do is this, the EMP needs to be an bigger area effect not a damn bubble but a flash with a big radius and any thing in that area (not small dome sized area) would be effected if its an enemy not friendlies. what about making it a small land mine that's hard to see_ You drop it and if an enemy hits/walks or slides by it, they trip it and boom they are stuck with no power for two minutes or until a friend outside the effect shoots the mine_ Makes more sense to me.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ezpikins, on March 12 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Raiders are NOT op. I have one and let me tell ya through the first 4 levels so far

Judging by the fact your Raider is Lvl. 4, and the information you posted, you don't seem to have a solid grasp on how the Raider should be played, or even some of the more basic combat tactics (like taking cover while you reload, basic heat management).

I don't think you are qualified to objectively comment on whether or not anything is overpowered.

[TwiceDead]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 12 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Ezpikins, on March 12 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Raiders are NOT op. I have one and let me tell ya through the first 4 levels so far

Judging by the fact your Raider is Lvl. 4, and the information you posted, you don't seem to have a solid grasp on how the Raider should be played, or even some of the more basic combat tactics (like taking cover while you reload, basic heat management).

I don't think you are qualified to objectively comment on whether or not anything is overpowered.

First impressions matter. Just sayin'. . . Although maybe not this time.

[Pirits]

I recall a mech that was an awesome mech in mech-warrior, it was called the supernova. Why was it called a supernova, was it the fact it had six of the best lasers, my cousins and I couldn't figure out for the longest time, till we hit enough buttons and found the one that shot every weapon at the same darn time.

The Supernova went supernova. Why'd you push for dual wields then retract the statement, not like my EOC infiltrator is evil enough give me two volleys of six each volley doing about 250 damage. Now give me a second to get the internal that makes me hit like a truck, any of them will do, best case scenario I do 500-ish damage to any mech without a damage remover, I don't know how much of a reduction a turret mode gives, or I'd punch those numbers, kinda like the face of any A-B class i meet with a full volley set up to fire, then my item.

Worst case, I set up for offensive tree with an offensive internal to let me do an extra 2-5% damage, I'll go off on a limb and round this stuff up a bit. 1-2% from the higher tiers of the now dear god why tree (if it worked with dual wields or worked period) + the 3-5% from the internal, 501.5 with the lower ends of those two out of at least three damage boosters that would apply to this weapon, and after doing the math on the stated boosts, not the real ones, you get an extra 6.48% damage, 532.4 damage. I don't know the stats on items, something tells me the game would be broken a few times over if someone used an H.E. Charge with this volley of insta-gliblet-producing-rage-quit-worthy red carper of death. Max hp on an A class with defensive + movement tree + best armor = 549.15 or 548.1.

Best of luck, you wanted a dual wield, now you may attempt to run from it.

Disclaimer: Comment based off of original posters wish for dual wields then stating it's ungodly.

[Pirits]

Ezpikins, on March 12 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Raiders are NOT op. I have one and let me tell ya through the first 4 levels so far it's a big walking target. Sure if you get absolutely lucky and surprise someone who just got half the life kicked out of them_, you might kill them if you have the flak setting up the long range grenade takes what seems 10 minutes to reload and the flak cannon does good damage but heats up in two shots leaving you holding your bolts while the enemy empties into you.

I'm not impressed, at least not with the lower levels. The EMP Which is the default speacial weapon on the Raider is useless. Common who will stand still in a green bubble and let their energy be tapped_ If you would_ let me freind you in game I need a pigeon. What the DEV TEAM needs to do is this, the EMP needs to be an bigger area effect not a damn bubble but a flash with a big radius and any thing in that area (not small dome sized area) would be effected if its an enemy not friendlies. what about making it a small land mine that's hard to see_ You drop it and if an enemy hits/walks or slides by it, they trip it and boom they are stuck with no power for two minutes or until a friend outside the effect shoots the mine_ Makes more sense to me.

Dear god not the infinite EMP again. It had an area you couldn't dodge out of if it was heading right at you, it travled at least one and a half times faster and EMP'd for seven seconds.

Go home you're drunk. Nah I don't mean that the EMP was the weapon of cowards, now you have to be close in and take the chance when you get the hit.

Edited by Pirits, March 12 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Xuande]

Raider is not overpowered. The MIRV does a little more damage than a TOW but at a cost. For one thing, it cannot be detonated manually and it doesn't fire in a straight line. It requires a lot more skill and practice. Secondly, in order for the Raider to be effective it has to be very close to it's enemy, which is a very high risk of destruction. It's useless from range. Period.

I own a Raider and 5 other mechs and I can attest to this. My A class mechs have very little issues with the Raider due to it being fairly easy to dodge MIRV's. My Bruiser and Reaper mop the floor with Raiders because it's basically just cannon fodder from a distance.

The only time I can see it truly being difficult to fend off Raider is during Seige at the Origin map due to it being very confined battle for the AA.

In other words, learn new tactics to properly fight the Raider. Owning one fairly helps in knowing the limitations of the mech and how to combat it.

Edited by Xuande, March 12 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[deusex2]

I'm all out of popcorn... Rock, Paper, Scissors, anyone_

[Beemann]

Xuande, on March 12 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Raider is not overpowered. The MIRV does a little more damage than a TOW but at a cost. For one thing, it cannot be detonated manually and it doesn't fire in a straight line. It requires a lot more skill and practice. Secondly, in order for the Raider to be effective it has to be very close to it's enemy, which is a very high risk of destruction. It's useless from range. Period.

I own a Raider and 5 other mechs and I can attest to this. My A class mechs have very little issues with the Raider due to it being fairly easy to dodge MIRV's. My Bruiser and Reaper mop the floor with Raiders because it's basically just cannon fodder from a distance.

The only time I can see it truly being difficult to fend off Raider is during Seige at the Origin map due to it being very confined battle for the AA.

In other words, learn new tactics to properly fight the Raider. Owning one fairly helps in knowing the limitations of the mech and how to combat it.

1. It DOES fire in a straight line, does 60 more damage, and works up until 90m with very little spread
2. 90m is already pretty considerable, but 175 damage at longer range aint bad either. The raider is hardly gimped at mid range, and outside of facility and awkward spots on Bazaar there isnt really any long range unless you're deathmatching
3. By including Siege you should also really include MA, which is currently closest to the point of balance for this game. This game should not be balanced for deathmatch or team death match

In other words, nope

deusex2, on March 13 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

I'm all out of popcorn... Rock, Paper, Scissors, anyone_

Aside from being terrible design, Raider isn't rock, paper OR scissors
It's clearly laser sword

[v009]

Beemann, on March 13 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

1. It DOES fire in a straight line, does 60 more damage, and works up until 90m with very little spread
2. 90m is already pretty considerable, but 175 damage at longer range aint bad either. The raider is hardly gimped at mid range, and outside of facility and awkward spots on Bazaar there isnt really any long range unless you're deathmatching
3. By including Siege you should also really include MA, which is currently closest to the point of balance for this game. This game should not be balanced for deathmatch or team death match

In other words, nope

It would be good to see some videos of Scout v Raiders or others mech to see how good it is when mid range.
The reliability of MIRV over 50 metres on moving targets who dodge. Not sit still.

[ScHizNiK]

Beemann, on March 13 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

1. It DOES fire in a straight line, does 60 more damage, and works up until 90m with very little spread
2. 90m is already pretty considerable, but 175 damage at longer range aint bad either. The raider is hardly gimped at mid range, and outside of facility and awkward spots on Bazaar there isnt really any long range unless you're deathmatching

Its range gets extended to 99 meters at level 14.

[Kaelek]

Personally when I first started playing the Raider, I noticed that my average kill/death ratio went from roughly 3:1 to around 5:1. Also, I routinely played death match games where I routinely scored 5 - 6k xp... Now I don't know if that had to do with me being good with the Raider or the Raider being OP, but I still do not score like that in any of my other mechs so draw your own conclusions... Oh and I was able to get it to level 25 over the course of about 4 days without playing more than I usually do, when it normally takes me around a week to a week and a half (with 2x xp) to hit 25 on ANY other mech. Honestly, I think I know what the problem is as well. The grenade shots when all landed do an INSANE amount of damage and it is very hard for anyone to recover from that much damage at once. Plus the option to switch between long range rocket and short range grenades during combat is something completely unique to this mech and a definite advantage as well.

[Akaon]

Interesting discussion about dual wielding in a game where every single mech dual wields weapons.

Proof: http://en.wikipedia....i/Dual_wielding

[Beemann]

Akaon, on March 13 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Interesting discussion about dual wielding in a game where every single mech dual wields weapons.

Proof: http://en.wikipedia....i/Dual_wielding

I see you've chosen not to read the issue or contribute in a productive manner. I like your style, discussing game mechanics is clearly overrated anyway (thats why we're here to beta test right_ to not talk about any mechanics and quietly accept every patch)

[Xuande]

Beemann, on March 13 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

1. It DOES fire in a straight line, does 60 more damage, and works up until 90m with very little spread

It fires in a straight line up until a point, which then requires one to awkwardly aim to hit targets from a distance, without even the chance to detonate for splash damage. For the damage it does I have to say those shortcomings are pretty fair. Imo, if you get hit with one from a distance, you deserved it.

2. 90m is already pretty considerable, but 175 damage at longer range ain't bad either. The raider is hardly gimped at mid range, and outside of facility and awkward spots on Bazaar there isn't really any long range unless you're deathmatching

One doesn't need extreme distance to take on a Raider. Mid distance is good enough and learning to time your dodges with the Raider's MIRV cooldown is an extremely useful skill. As I said above, you don't have the luxury of detonating the MIRV for splash so it is very limited compared to the TOW in mid range fights. Even when you put it into "shotgun mode" your distance is severely gimped and useless in mid-range. Also (I'm not completely sure on this), the cooldowns seem longer than TOW cooldowns which makes every shot that much more precious.

3. By including Siege you should also really include MA, which is currently closest to the point of balance for this game. This game should not be balanced for deathmatch or team death match

I usually stick to TDM and Seige and I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.

In other words, nope

[xXHadronCutterXx]

Raider's aren't that bad untill they hit level 25. EOC + MIRV + Experienced player = a bloody nightmare. There's no way in hell you can take that guy out in CQC one on one unless you are very, very skilled or/and lucky. But still, I wouldn't call them OP just because they can output so much damage at once, look at Rocketeers and Sharpshooters, they also output a lot of damage at once. In fact, I kinda like they are tough to beat in CQC, it forces you to use actual tactics, keep your distance and most importantly, play teamwork to take them out. If they caught you in the field where they're best at with your guard down, they deserve the kill.