139 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

machmanx, on March 10 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 10 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

machmanx, on March 10 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Dude, in the hands of a 4 or 5 star pilot, ANY MECH becomes more powerful than it actually is, ROFL.  It's the truth.

No. That's not how it works.
The higher the skill of the pilot, the greater the chance a mech will be used to is full and true potential.
In other words, if the pilot is a 5 star pilot, then and only then will you see how powerful the mech actually is.

LOL same thing.  See how we both used "powerful" and "actually is"_  Seriously man, does it matter who's more Politically Correct_  I'm just trying to get the point across that a good pilot can use any mech and kill any mech.  You're letting this guy get to you.  Cool down

You may think it's the same thing, but what you described is not actually the same as what I described.

How powerful something "actually" is, would be how powerful it is if the mech were played perfectly by the best pilot ever and pushed to it's absolute limits.
By saying "more powerful", you're implying that somehow those limits are being bypassed.

You may think I'm being overly picky, but precision in your descriptions helps avoid confusion and the spread of misconceptions or poor logic.

Also, if you think he's getting to me, I'd encourage you to look at my post history and better acquaint yourself with my posting style and habits.

_{P.S. While I'm being a nitpick, I might as well point out you're using "politically correct" wrong.}

[PlagueDoctor]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 10 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

You may think it's the same thing, but what you described is not actually the same as what I described.

How powerful something "actually" is, would be how powerful it is if the mech were played perfectly by the best pilot ever and pushed to it's absolute limits.
By saying "more powerful", you're implying that somehow those limits are being bypassed.

You may think I'm being overly picky, but precision in your descriptions helps avoid confusion and the spread of misconceptions or poor logic.

Also, if you think he's getting to me, I'd encourage you to look at my post history and better acquaint yourself with my posting style and habits.

_{P.S. While I'm being a nitpick, I might as well point out you're using "politically correct" wrong.}

Just saying, if AJK lived in a college town, he could make a fortune proofing papers.

Edited by PlagueDoctor, March 10 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[2ane]

I personally dont get the carelessness of the Devs when it comes to melee-focused mechs. The gameplay and map-design obviously favors this type of engagement so mechs like the Scout and Raider will always provoke these reactions.

[AsianJoyKiller]

PlagueDoctor, on March 10 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

Just saying, if AJK lived in a college town, he could make a fortune proofing papers.

I live in Madison, WI.
Just saying.

[draco7891]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 10 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

It's basically a DUAL WIELDING shot gun class, but no-one else can dual wield.

HEAT Scout: double contact-burst.
Slug Sharpshooter: double accurate hitscan burst.
Slug Reaper: double accurate hitscan burst.
RevGL Grenadier: double grenades.
Seeker Rocketeer: double heat-seeking missiles.

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They have more HP than lights. DO insane dps, and also when used in gangs are unstoppable.

Brawler.

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Just had a match of siege where it was 3000/0 hp loss. It was a struggle just to kill one of them.

Siege. Brawler.



Draco

[Beemann]

draco7891, on March 10 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 10 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

It's basically a DUAL WIELDING shot gun class, but no-one else can dual wield.

HEAT Scout: double contact-burst.
Slug Sharpshooter: double accurate hitscan burst.
Slug Reaper: double accurate hitscan burst.
RevGL Grenadier: double grenades.
Seeker Rocketeer: double heat-seeking missiles.

I really don't wanna play devils advocate here, but all of those are outliers (either above or below the "effectiveness" baseline by a noticeable margin)
Reaper isn't in a very good spot right now on a competitive level, Seeker Rocketeer is kinda doomed, HEAT Scout has been a consistent outlier and overshadows the other two A mechs, Sharpshooter is in need of an ability nerf due to the Slug+Sabot output and RevGL Grenadier is spammy and is one of the only classes that can consistently staggerlock,

@Op

Except you're ignoring the fact that allowing a higher level of minmaxing is what caused such a low level of variation in the first place. If an outlier causes less variation in the game, shouldn't the goal be to push that outlier back in line instead of just creating more outliers_ Why bother having sub optimal weapon combinations at all_ Why not just choose the mathematically best combination, and sell pre-prepared mechs_
If your plan for the Raider is simply to give other classes the option to minmax to the same extent, then aren't you basically just copying out the Raider_ Why would I not play the highest burst combo available on any of these other classes if I could crank it up that high_ Why would I bother with any variation when you've made it so easy for me to get to the optimal weapon combo_

Edited by Beemann, March 10 2013 - 10:55 PM.

[draco7891]

Beemann, on March 10 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I really don't wanna play devils advocate here, but all of those are outliers (either above or below the "effectiveness" baseline by a noticeable margin)

Doesn't matter, each of those mechs dual-wield a weapon type, in contravention of the OP's assertion that only the Raider can dual-wield.

Draco

[Beemann]

draco7891, on March 10 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Beemann, on March 10 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I really don't wanna play devils advocate here, but all of those are outliers (either above or below the "effectiveness" baseline by a noticeable margin)

Doesn't matter, each of those mechs dual-wield a weapon type, in contravention of the OP's assertion that only the Raider can dual-wield.

Except it supports some other suggestions he makes. The implication that the Raider is the only outlier in that case is a superficial point. If there are other mechs that support the trend of "cant balance dual wielding against not dual wielding" then it supports his overall argument
Just sayin

[draco7891]

Beemann, on March 10 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

Except it supports some other suggestions he makes. The implication that the Raider is the only outlier in that case is a superficial point. If there are other mechs that support the trend of "cant balance dual wielding against not dual wielding" then it supports his overall argument
Just sayin

That's not his argument. His argument is that the Raider is too powerful because it can dual-wield, and his proposed solution is, and I quote:

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My solution_ make other classes able to dual wield and then it's not just the Raider that can effectively do it.

There are already several classes that dual-wield. The conclusion is false, because the premise on which it is based is false.

QED.

Draco

[Beemann]

draco7891, on March 10 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Beemann, on March 10 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

Except it supports some other suggestions he makes. The implication that the Raider is the only outlier in that case is a superficial point. If there are other mechs that support the trend of "cant balance dual wielding against not dual wielding" then it supports his overall argument
Just sayin

That's not his argument. His argument is that the Raider is too powerful because it can dual-wield, and his proposed solution is, and I quote:

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My solution_ make other classes able to dual wield and then it's not just the Raider that can effectively do it.

There are already several classes that dual-wield. The conclusion is false, because the premise on which it is based is false.

QED.

Draco

Except those classes aren't balanced against classes that dont dual wield. So you've proven nothing
What you'd have to attack is the idea that they are imbalanced because of the dual wielding, which is a separate matter

[PlagueDoctor]

Beemann, on March 10 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Except those classes aren't balanced against classes that dont dual wield. So you've proven nothing
What you'd have to attack is the idea that they are imbalanced because of the dual wielding, which is a separate matter

Use more and smaller words so us simple folk can understand, yuh'hurr_

E: maybe i'm just tired but I feel hella stupid for not being able to parse this

Edited by PlagueDoctor, March 10 2013 - 11:41 PM.

[draco7891]

Beemann, on March 10 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Except those classes aren't balanced against classes that dont dual wield. So you've proven nothing
What you'd have to attack is the idea that they are imbalanced because of the dual wielding, which is a separate matter

Doesn't matter. Not his assertion. Don't ascribe more to the argument than what is presented.

Even within his assertion that additional dual-wielding classes will balance out the Raider: the Raider is OP even with the presence of these classes. The conclusion is wrong, because the premise is wrong.

QED.

Draco

[Beemann]

draco7891, on March 10 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

Doesn't matter. Not his assertion. Don't ascribe more to the argument than what is presented.

Even within his assertion that additional dual-wielding classes will balance out the Raider: the Raider is OP even with the presence of these classes. The conclusion is wrong, because the premise is wrong.

Except it was the assertion
The assertion was that the Raider is more powerful because it dual wields. If you list imbalanced classes with thematically similar weapons (IE Hawken's equivalent of dual wielding) then you're proving his point in the main portion to attack a superficial portion elsewhere in the post

Additionally, one could argue that the gap between the raider and the HEAT scout, RevGren, and Slug Sharpie is far smaller than the gap between it and a class without those options, which still leaves the core argument intact
So you've proven nothing

@Plague Doctor
Go to sleep

Edited by Beemann, March 10 2013 - 11:46 PM.

[ArnieF4440]

its not "dual wielding", its versatility, lol

[draco7891]

Beemann, on March 10 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Except those classes aren't balanced against classes that dont dual wield. So you've proven nothing
What you'd have to attack is the idea that they are imbalanced because of the dual wielding, which is a separate matter

Doesn't matter. Not his assertion. Don't ascribe more to the argument than what is presented.

Even within his assertion that additional dual-wielding classes will balance out the Raider: the Raider is OP even with the presence of these classes. The conclusion is wrong, because the premise is wrong.

QED.

Draco

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

Elix 's post
responce : I am not going to 'just accept'  blah blah. It's a beta, we aren't here to agree to disagree, we are here to make the game better.
Not listening to viewpoints_ what view point_ its 3 pages in and only now are some actual points that arn't just meaningless personal attacks have started....infact it took 3 pages to bring us to.....

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Except then you diluting the identity of each mech and causing more redundancy problems than there already are.

Different mechs are supposed to fill different roles, and if you give every mech an option to fit every role, what's the point of even having all the different mechs_

Well done AJK. ....only took 3 pages....now where were we....

2 weapons on each arm still leaves PLENTY of room for unique flavor. Class specific choices + the combo of light/medium/heavy + special ability would leave no two mechs the same.
Hardly 'diluted to redundancy'. Beserker with two SMG's sounds FUN....but also competitive. If no other mech can have that combo, then that would give the berserker a unique flavor. a lots of bullets flavor.

No AOE, no poking around corners, no instant killing an mg turret, etc etc.
and the DPS at short range to combat other classes, like the Raider for example, meaning i can rely on my team mates to cover my brawler when the raider comes along....without just hoping i have more Raiders in my team than they do.

It's about Sacrificing one weapon for another, and having to deal with that when the game starts.

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If every mech had the ability to select custom weapons, it would be slug-and-Tow online

I made it quite clear i have acknowledge the flaws of the early beta where one could pick any weapon combo. im helping change the shape of the game to accommodate the raider as a balanced option.
from 1x3=3 options per mech to 2x2=4 btw.

A deceptively simple solution.

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Dude, in the hands of a 4 or 5 star pilot, ANY MECH becomes more powerful than it actually is

Which is exactly why all the mechs should be equal in an abstract spiritual sense. Right now the Raider is so obviously overpowered from that video it hurts, even the guy talking is joking about how ridiculous it is.

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ultimately all opinions balance out and all this Overpowered vs Underpowered cancel each other out

Until the server stats come in and show other wise....which i am almost certain they will as the beta continues until the raider is nerfed.....or better yet....the primary/secondary weapon system improved across the board.

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Adding to AJK's statement, the devs explicitly veered away from the "anything goes" weapons loadout in early testing because it led to min/maxing and everyone running with the same one or two weapons combos

Do you even read my posts_ I said '' in the early beta it was like 6 choices one arm 7 choices the other''. i'm clearly referring to this problem.
my suggestion which would make room for greater tactical depth is for 2 choices per arm, class specific....you are making a straw-man argument i'm afraid.

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All of that goes out the door as soon as you unrestrict weapon choice.

currently 1x3=3
suggestion 2x2=4.....class specific choices.

Thats very tightly restricted. its just a better way than what is currently on offer.

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Based on your story I'm guessing this is more of difference in skill instead of a difference in power between mechs.

My stats speck otherwise, let alone my performance in other games...mech and otherwise.

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If you take the Berzerker and give it the Grenade Launcher as an alternate secondary choice, now the only thing that makes one of its loadouts different than the Infiltrator is its special ability.

I feel your entire paragraph is solved by the point i make about it being class specfic combos. The alternate right arm would be another SMG, making sure no other class could do it. thus you would get High dps-berzerkers spitting out lots of bullets. something only the berzerker could even equip.

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I'm just trying to get the point across that a good pilot can use any mech and kill any mech.

what about an unarmed mech vs Raider_

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A top pilot will max out, much like a balloon hitting a ceiling. The balloon can't go higher than the ceiling.

There is no ceiling, or spoon for that matter XD

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Playing Raider myself, it's really annoying to play against SS, Reaper, and the hell fire duo when not in your range.

It is better than a scout in almost every possible way except the silhouette of the mech is slightly better. It is OP as hell.
you were annoyed whilst you raked in kill after kill after kill and escaped at breakneck speed_ that's OP still.

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I personally dont get the carelessness of the Devs when it comes to melee-focused mechs. The gameplay and map-design obviously favors this type of engagement so mechs like the Scout and Raider will always provoke these reactions.

An excellent point, some more open maps with underground tunnels would be nice to mix up the tactics a little.

Quote

Except you're ignoring the fact that allowing a higher level of minmaxing is what caused such a low level of variation in the first place. If an outlier causes less variation in the game, shouldn't the goal be to push that outlier back in line instead of just creating more outliers_

2x2 does not cause this problem.

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Why bother having sub optimal weapon combinations at all_ Why not just choose the mathematically best combination, and sell pre-prepared mechs_

4 options that combine in a unique way with the special abilty does not cause this problem. Tetris blocks are made of only 4 blocks. I'm not suggesting we make tetris have all sorts of random squllgy mutli-block shapes (which is a metaphore for the very early beta you are remembering and refering to...10 or whatever choices one arm, 10 the other. 10x10=100).

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f your plan for the Raider is simply to give other classes the option to minmax to the same extent, then aren't you basically just copying out the Raider_

the raider would still need a bit of nerfing even after the locked-inarm is fixed.
You are also asserting that 2x2 options will result in min-maxing like in early beta,...when it won't. It's only 4 combos per class.

etc etc, people going around in circles.
At least they are being fairly civil now.

[Omega22]

This  reminds me of them old days back in CB3....

Nerf this , nerf that, fix this fix that

i realise that this game takes SKILL and not Weapons

I agree thou , the raider has a lot of + in its build and loadout and in the hands of those Skill players will dominate .

This game is about balance and how you use the mech, thats y its best to own all mechs and have them at level 25 and master each one.
I realise  cetain mechs do and play well in certain maps.

on a personal note, i hate raiders and scouts

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

fitting a mech is a skill.

designing the parts to be balanced is game design,  and it's insanely hard.

[AsianJoyKiller]

You mentioned double SMCs (gee why does that sound familiar_).
And here we go with the dual wielding primaries again...

It does not work.
It can not work.

Dual wielding primary weapons pushes the TTK into the same range that EOC/MIRV Raider or Power Shot SS is capable of.
You do not need AoE and splash when you are capable of tearing through the entirety of a mech's health in less than 3 seconds.
The combo of dual primaries will make primary/secondary combos pointless as they become outclassed due to the sheer power of dual wielded primary combos.

Dual wielding primary weapons means people start dying as fast as they do in CoD.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Erdos, on March 10 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

EDIT: Anyone want to actually talk about the Raider instead of the OP_  

I love my Raider.

Erdos, on March 10 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Thoughts on removing the speed boost from the ability and adding explosion resistance_

You touch my Blitz and i will eviscerate you.
How else am i supposed to be able to Pwn all those bloody Heat/Flak Scouts _
Explosion resistance _
Yeah right, it'll pan out like the Bruiser's ability did : utter fuzzy bunny.

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, March 11 2013 - 12:24 AM.