139 replies to this topic

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

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The combo of dual primaries will make primary/secondary combos pointless as they become outclassed due to the sheer power of dual wielded primary combos.

Oh so...like the Raider then. so you are agreeing with me the raider is op_ oh wait never mind that im not getting sucked into a silly fight with you.

i simply state that i believe you are dead wrong about '' it does not /cannot work ''.

i'm suggesting 4 combo's per mech. i feel like what you are saying is that different tetris blocks arn't balanced. Also the devs can pick the class-weapon-selections carefully....to help prevent these problems.

The engineers not being able to swap one of the arms is un-immersive and silly.

I don't expect you to admit you are wrong even if i proved it. (me mentioning that hawken would turn into tow-launcher online sound familiar_)

As hawken grows more and more mechs will be available. the problem of the raider will happen time and time again each time they release a new mech......unless all mechs have the ability to swap out 2 weapons per arm, instead of this weird 1x3 combo.

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, March 12 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Raider doesn't dual wield.
/end

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

No it just has two shotguns......

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Nope, it has a Shotgun and a Grenade launcher.
MIRV does not = Shotgun.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

it's not a shotgun cause its green_ lol_

[Elix]

[Teljaxx]

You keep assuming that the Raider using a secondary weapon that is similar to its primary is exactly the same thing as having two identical weapons. It is very much not. Even though the MIRV acts like a shotgun, it is not identical to the primary Flak cannons that it uses. It has entirely different damage output, firing interval, and range.

Having a Berzerker that dual wields like the Raider does would be if it had an SMC as its primary and a different machinegun as its secondary. This is not the same as having dual SMCs because their stats would be different, and could be balanced to work together.

Also, your 2x2 weapon Tetris block analogy only works if every weapon in every combo is exactly identical in power. Otherwise, to continue the metaphor, you get four squares of varying sizes in different configurations, and they no longer fit together. You have now ruined what made the game work.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 11 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

it's not a shotgun cause its green_ lol_

Nope, it's not a Shotgun because it shoots Grenades.
Sure, it fires them in a spread pattern, but they're still grenades.

Also :

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

the gifs and lack of civility / mutual respect have come out. My work here is done.

[AsianJoyKiller]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 11 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

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The combo of dual primaries will make primary/secondary combos pointless as they become outclassed due to the sheer power of dual wielded primary combos.

Oh so...like the Raider then. so you are agreeing with me the raider is op_ oh wait never mind that im not getting sucked into a silly fight with you.

If something is OP, you don't balance by buffing everything else up to it's level. You work to bring what is OP back in line with the standard baseline.

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i simply state that i believe you are dead wrong about '' it does not /cannot work ''.

Simply stating it does not make it true. You need some sort of evidence to back your claim.

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i'm suggesting 4 combo's per mech. i feel like what you are saying is that different tetris blocks arn't balanced. Also the devs can pick the class-weapon-selections carefully....to help prevent these problems.

Due to the nature and damage output of primary weapons, dual wielding any of them is in almost every case better than a primary/secondary combos, and flat out better than any secondary/secondary combo.

The lack of AoE if you were to pick 2 hitscan weapons like the SMCs, is completely overridden by the fact that 2 SMCs will kill an A-Class mech in less than 3 seconds.
Less than 3 seconds, with 2 extremely easy to use weapons, and without being dependent on an ability to boost the damage to that level.

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The engineers not being able to swap one of the arms is un-immersive and silly.

Balance > Immersion

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I don't expect you to admit you are wrong even if i proved it. (me mentioning that hawken would turn into tow-launcher online sound familiar_)

You'd actually have to prove me wrong in the first place. Something which you've failed to do... ever.

As for TOW-Launcher Online... you never did prove that. Neither back when you first started that, nor have you now. On the other hand, I showed that there was in fact the usage of plenty of other secondaries going on back then. And if you look at the scoreboards these days, what do you see_ Lots of Hellfires, Corsairs, and Sabots rivaling the TOW usage.

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As hawken grows more and more mechs will be available. the problem of the raider will happen time and time again each time they release a new mech......unless all mechs have the ability to swap out 2 weapons per arm, instead of this weird 1x3 combo.

Just because it happened once does not mean it will happen again, and your proposal is not the only solution, nor is it the best.

EDIT:

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 11 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

the gifs and lack of civility / mutual respect have come out. My work here is done.

If you're saying your work here is done, then you are implying you intent was to provoke emotional responses and cause drama.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, March 11 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[DarkPulse]

In all seriousness, let's wait more than a week before we begin to scream "Nerf it!" shall we_ It's a bit too soon, when most players are still getting used to how the things move, feel, and fight.

[OdinTheWise]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 11 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

the gifs and lack of civility / mutual respect have come out. My work here is done.

this proves it, he is a troll

[Beemann]

draco7891, on March 10 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Doesn't matter. Not his assertion. Don't ascribe more to the argument than what is presented.

Even within his assertion that additional dual-wielding classes will balance out the Raider: the Raider is OP even with the presence of these classes. The conclusion is wrong, because the premise is wrong.

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My solution_ make other classes able to dual wield and then it's not just the Raider that can effectively do it.

IF the stated problem is dual wielding (for better or wose)
And IF your suggested alternative dual wielders are imbalanced
THEN you've only supported his argument that dual wielding is the issue

And the other part of your post is entirely unsupported. Typing in QED after it doesn't change that

Ultimately what should be discussed here is a potential power difference between classes with two aiming styles, and classes with one. Should they exist_ Should a few nerfs/buffs be applied to put the mechs in line_ The difference between hitscan tracking and leading slow projectiles is pretty considerable and accounts for a decent amount of skill if you're going for optimal output on both, hitting two hitscan guns or two projectile weapons is considerably less skill intensive or thought provoking. Should there be a difference in effectiveness to reflect this_

[AsianJoyKiller]

DarkPulse, on March 11 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

In all seriousness, let's wait more than a week before we begin to scream "Nerf it!" shall we_ It's a bit too soon, when most players are still getting used to how the things move, feel, and fight.

There is a certain point when even raw numbers can tell you something is off.
Like, you know, the whole "450 damage in 1 burst" thing.

[OdinTheWise]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

DarkPulse, on March 11 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

In all seriousness, let's wait more than a week before we begin to scream "Nerf it!" shall we_ It's a bit too soon, when most players are still getting used to how the things move, feel, and fight.

There is a certain point when even raw numbers can tell you something is off.
Like, you know, the whole "450 damage in 1 burst" thing.

unfortunately those numbers directly cant tell you weather a mech is OP, you need to look at W/L ratios over time, damage numbers cant tell you everything.  damage numbers cant tell you how a mech is being played or how to play it

[Un3thical]

Erdos, on March 10 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Un3thical, on March 10 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

okay raider is strong up close but at range its easy picking, recently i have been enjoying the bruiser ( new optimizations and internals ) so many times i have killed a raider trying to close in on me so many times with out him touching me because helffires are just dandy now and i have the range advantage, yes he has the arcing shot but people arent always accurate with that ( took me a while to get the hang of it ) just don't go up close to a raider if your mech can't handle it.

This is gonna be my standard response for all of the "Just don't fight it 1v1 if you can't hack it" posts: How do you run away from something that boosts faster than an A-class, and can shoot you while doing so_

If your in a team game, stick with your team any two mechs can easily take down one.
if you can't beat it start using the raider if you don't like its playstyle at least learn about so you know how to take it down.
or alpha strike the fuzzy bunny out of one

[Beemann]

OdinTheWise, on March 11 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

unfortunately those numbers directly cant tell you weather a mech is OP, you need to look at W/L ratios over time, damage numbers cant tell you everything.  damage numbers cant tell you how a mech is being played or how to play it

Fortunately if the numbers are pants on head stupid or completely off the wall, you dont need to know how well people who dont know how to play it do

Un3thical, on March 11 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

If your in a team game, stick with your team any two mechs can easily take down one.
if you can't beat it start using the raider if you don't like its playstyle at least learn about so you know how to take it down.
or alpha strike the fuzzy bunny out of one

2v1 != balance

[v009]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 10 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

No AOE, no poking around corners, no instant killing an mg turret, etc etc.

Are you serious about no instant killing MG turret_

It can auto track and shoot you before you get out of cover.
Give your position away by using your secondary to kill it and you have to wait for it to reload.

Edited by v009, March 12 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[N0stalgia]

How many "Raider's are OP" threads are there_ I think I'm lost.

[Pelax]

I just love threads "I've lost - make them pay!"... They're sooo cute!

But seriously - problem with Raider is problem with that transformer shotgun 'Mirv'. Flak cannon used to be deadly in close range but it's nerfed now. The same fate awaits Mirv... It's just a matter of incoming patch.

Sabot, Vulcan, Flak.. devs blew my every favourite gun. You'll just have to wait!

My advice - don't weaken the Mirv but increase damage of casual guns! Just like in Alpha! Fast & Furious in CQC!