119 replies to this topic

[Leonhardt]

Marty its hard to explain the basic meta to someone who seems to only understand the classic shooter roles. I gave up and the devs will understand what happened here so its not worth saying anything more. Its all already been said.

[vonbach]

To all you A class players out there. No you are not balanced. You are OP and no C classes
are not there to be your punching bags. You need to be nerfed and hopefully it'll happen sooner
rather than later.

[dEd101]

A class are fine. C class needs a useful ability then after that remaining balance issues (if any can) be addressed.

[Sylhiri]

vonbach, on May 12 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

To all you A class players out there. No you are not balanced. You are OP and no C classes
are not there to be your punching bags. You need to be nerfed and hopefully it'll happen sooner
rather than later.

A single person is going to try to convince the majority that an entire class type is overpowered rather then an entire class type is just underpowered. You do realize that the B class can also kill C classes just as easily as A classes right_ That it has a B class mech has the highest secondary and moves faster then an A class or one that can do large chunks of damage at a distance_ You better nerf those too man, just to be safe.

[Shianai]

Ok after looking over all of this I have just a few things to say, one being the turret mode isn't as bad as people give it, you just need to know what you're doing, a defence based mech can deal with being a turret just fine, the only sujestion I would make around that is make the defencive optimization tree, a little more, I don't know, worth it_

And as far as A class mechs go, well they aren't really as op as you would think, how many shots does it take a SS to kill a light_

What it ends up looking like is that people don't quite know how to deal with the speed of an A class, and it's really not that hard, in all honesty. All in all the only big things to say, are A, react faster, B hawken devs, please make optimization make a bit more of an impact, and C, get over it.

[GTAM]

Quote

And as far as A class mechs go, well they aren't really as op as you would think, how many shots does it take a SS to kill a light_

How difficult is for a SS to HIT a high-speed dashing scout_

another question:

How many A-Class do you see playing in every match_

I usually spot 2-3 scouts MININUM, 1-2 infiltrators, 1-2 berserker, and some techinicians.

A.Class hits like another class, have smaller hitbox, dashes like hell and doesn't have any counter possible in the game, so mostly all the players and aimbotters play A-Class, plus now they have 50 more health to bite.

Maybe a solution is buff up C-Class on weapon damage, health, and just change the mechanic of the abilties.

I'm a bit tired of reading the forums and when someone says the A-Class are OP a bunch of A-Class fanboys comes up to shut him up.

Also the hellfire homing nerf is ridicoulous. Every time you full lock-on with a bruiser/rockeeter flip a coin, if heads, hits the target.

Sorry for my bad english.

[Jintonic]

Quote

A classes need their firepower reduced. The damage I can do attacking by myself with my Technician is disgusting
let alone simply spamming grenades and assault rifle fire with the Infiltrator

your so right, that AR infintrator so op, just shreds my brawler in 3 seconds

[Duralumi]

I would prefer C-classes buffed rather than A-classes nerfed.

Mobility means more than health. And C-classes have barely any mobility, while having the same damage-output as the more mobile classes.

Edited by Duralumi, May 13 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[KaszaWspraju]

50 HP for A - class was a huge buff. Now the most mechs on the battlefield are A - classes (scout and inf) and can do more than ever before, thanks to the only 50HP more. These additional 50hp for the C-class is little significance.

[FussyBadger]

Just a reminder - not all A classes are balanced equally, nor are all B classes or C classes. Specific examples are important.

[ZeroCore]

I lol on those topics, i play a A class, but i wonder where you guys get that the C-CLass is the most bad now, i lold, then you dont seen solid players with those.

KaszaWspraju, on May 13 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

50 HP for A - class was a huge buff. Now the most mechs on the battlefield are A - classes (scout and inf) and can do more than ever before, thanks to the only 50HP more. These additional 50hp for the C-class is little significance.

Totaly agree with this, they should remove the HP buff from the A Class totaly to be honest (YES im a A Class reaper player)

Edited by ZeroCore, May 13 2013 - 03:51 AM.

[aToastfan]

The OP's statements about game-play regarding A-Class and C-Class mechs doesn't seem to represent what actually playing an A or C class (more strongly the C class perspective) is like.

I consider myself a competent player, but I would never go saying something like:

vonbach, on May 12 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

In my Technician I have no fear of C classes at all. I can kill most with no problems.

Because as a statement it's wildly general and lacks any context; as someone pointed out, must be pretty terrible C-Class players. What teir servers are you playing in_ Who specifically are you playing against_ This kind of information doesn't arise, the statement is totally ambiguous. The brief description of game-play associated with the above quote describes a C-Class player who just sits still and takes all the damage.. I don't know how OP thinks a C-Class is meant to be played, but that ain't it.

Another gem further reinforces the claim that OP does not understand the esteemed C-Class mechs, and perhaps even tactical game-play.

vonbach, on May 12 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

You try tanking with a C class and see where it gets you. C classes pretty much need a Tech to stay alive.
And no my role isn't to get shot at so all the cool A classes can murder the team without getting shot.

I can tell you good sir, that when I play a C-Class, I stay alive damn well with or without a technician. Running away is a speciality of mine, when I see enemies, and notice that there's lot of actual and potential projectiles heading my way, I high tail it out of there! Generally towards some team mates.

No, tanking in this game isn't about standing out in the open and taking all the shots, as many of you know. Tanking is all about taking just enough shots to look juicy, to look vulnerable, then you gotta run in your big, fat, unwieldy mech around the nearest corner towards the ambush you prepared earlier! Or just do one impromptu, that works too, its surprising how many people people don't expect someone who's running away to nuke them when they round the corner.  

Slight tangent, but never the less!I have shown that the level of C-Class game-play described by OP doesn't correspond with competent C class piloting!

Edited by aToastfan, May 13 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[mndmtx]

FussyBadger, on May 13 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

Just a reminder - not all A classes are balanced equally, nor are all B classes or C classes. Specific examples are important.

in my opinion A-class with highest attack power:

• Scout
  
• Infiltrator
  
• Reaper
  
• berserker
  
• Technician

Edited by mndmtx, May 13 2013 - 04:27 AM.

[KaszaWspraju]

aToastfan, on May 13 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

...

vonbach, on May 12 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

In my Technician I have no fear of C classes at all. I can kill most with no problems.

Because as a statement it's wildly general and lacks any context; as someone pointed out, must be pretty terrible C-Class players. What teir servers are you playing in_ Who specifically are you playing against_ This kind of information doesn't arise, the statement is totally ambiguous. The brief description of game-play associated with the above quote describes a C-Class player who just sits still and takes all the damage.. I don't know how OP thinks a C-Class is meant to be played, but that ain't it.

Another gem further reinforces the claim that OP does not understand the esteemed C-Class mechs, and perhaps even tactical game-play.
....

Apart from the skill of players, yes tech have no fear to anyone. it's not like: reaper see full hp c-calss mech and has soft leggs and runs away becouse he himself do fuzzy bunny in this situation.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, May 13 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[Leonhardt]

I play scout and infiltrator a lot and I think the whole notion that the 50hp added is in favor of the A class is a misconception based on percentages and not real play. The added 50hp while a large percentage value for any A class mech still puts them at around 550 baseline. Lets take a look at C class mechs who are around 900 baseline. I am not saying the numbers shouldn't be adjusted I am just explaining why this "percentage" is misleading.

How many full combo's (burst of both primary and secondary direct hits) does it take for say an infiltrator or scout to kill a C class_ HEAT infiltrators for example do 250 damage if both the GL and the HEAT hit directly. That means that it takes an A class 3 and a half full bursts fully charged and direct hits to kill a standard C class. Anyone who has played long enough will tell you that over 3 and a half full bursts (effectively 4 or more if you don't hit directly) is a long time in Hawken. They would also tell you that it is unlikely that you will get more than just 1 or 2 direct hits with the majority being splash damage (especially if your playing peekaboo because you're trying to mitigate damage that your opponent can trade and you cannot) and lets not even account for the amount of time the team gets to react.

Now lets look at A class mechs with the standard 550hp. With the same weapons it takes a little under 2 and a half direct burst combos to kill them. This means that of the about 4 times you will see an A class mech (saying only direct hits which means that it takes even longer with AoE taken into account) as they shoot to kill you (the C class pilot) must hit them a little over half of the time to kill them. An A class pilot cannot miss a shot for 4 bursts. I also want it noted that with direct hits a flak brawler can destroy an A class in just under 2 bursts (1.8).

So my point here is 50hp to everyone only increased the TTK in general it did not give A classes this advantage over other classes that I have seen many people claim. This is how it was before, but before the number of combos needed to kill was lower by ~1. This value of increasing combos needed is more significant to an A class then a C class just by the nature of the classes themselves. With an A class if you run out of fuel you can't dodge and are a sitting duck. The more time it takes to kill the less fuel you have in most situations. You are not afforded any room for error unless your team plays well and team is so dynamic a value its hard to account for that in uncoordinated play (pub play).

So in conclusion there is not a huge difference from last patch other than the increased TTK which if anything is in favor of a C class because it gives them more time to get help if they need it, but that could be said for any class.

*Some notes about examples and calculations: I used the HEAT infiltrator as an example because it is reliable damage in most situations and makes for a much better control then say the EOC infiltrator. HEAT scout is a great example as well, but the values were actually slightly higher so the numbers got a bit muddy. The end values are similar enough though that the TTK was about the same. I also used the same weapons for the C class calculation to keep things standard, but as with my note about the Brawler the TTK value can be lower or higher by about .4 to .7 in either direction.

Edited by Leonhardt, May 13 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[mndmtx]

@Leonhardt  the A mechs can easily attack and heal behind cover to full health in ~3-4sec with the healing spark. with C-mech only the brawler can heal effectively in the middle of the battle, and you can't chase an A mech you have to make them come to you with a flack brawler.

the infiltrator can easily follow you hidden with his ability when ever your health is low, and the same he can run away hidden when ever his health is low, this and that didn't come to you
the scout is even better, with you starting the battle in close range using the flack, you can kill your target in 4sec max 6sec, and you  will not lose even the half of your health (fact).
C-mechs are defensive, harder to flank your enemy, you can't hit and run, you can't chase.
with this and that didn't come to your calculations.
and I agree 50 health isn't much, I would like to see better C-mechs by adding more survivability.

[HugeGuts]

There are three overpowered Type A's: HEAT Infiltrator, HEAT Scout, and Flak Cannon Scout. Their exposure time to damage ratio is off the charts when compared to other mechs.

Every other Type A is acceptable.

[Leonhardt]

mndmtx, on May 13 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

@Leonhardt  the A mechs can easily attack and heal behind cover to full health in ~3-4sec with the healing spark. with C-mech only the brawler can heal effectively in the middle of the battle, and you can't chase an A mech you have to make them come to you with a flack brawler.

the infiltrator can easily follow you hidden with his ability when ever your health is low, and the same he can run away hidden when ever his health is low, this and that didn't come to you
the scout is even better, with you starting the battle in close range using the flack, you can kill your target in 4sec max 6sec, and you  will not lose even the half of your health (fact).
C-mechs are defensive, harder to flank your enemy, you can't hit and run, you can't chase.
with this and that didn't come to your calculations.
and I agree 50 health isn't much, I would like to see better C-mechs by adding more survivability.

Fact infiltrator is easy to see with his ability on. Fact your TTK given has no numeral basis or argument. Fact C class mechs are slow and cannot chase and therefore have a different playstyle. Fact the health spark heals 30% slower as of the new patch and all mechs heal at equal rates (provided there are no internals). Fact even if an A class is at full health if you heal for the same amount of time you gain back the same amount of health. Fact C-class mechs are a different class. Fact C-class mechs are played differently than A-class mechs. Fact C-class mechs use different tactics than A-class mechs. Fact skilled C-class mechs can destroy an A-class user in a 1v1.

C-class mechs have a role to fill and its not a carry role. They are team dependent and are meant to be used in that way. It is in their nature as a slow class. If you want everyone to be equal make all the mechs the same class and give them all the same weapons and call this quake or UT with mech models. Otherwise at some point you need to recognize that this is a team game and mechs are meant to fill roles on teams unlike traditional shooters.

Also I would like it noted that in the vast majority of 2000+ servers where I play it is rare to see any C class use turret mode and that includes brawlers with the only exception being siege which if you didn't know is not often played at 2000+ lvl (at least not at the times I play). So saying that only the brawler can heal effectively in a fight is just plain silly since they never use the ability for the very reason turret mode is despised. You gain health per second and then lose mobility to dodge and thus lose health to skilled opponents.

Edited by Leonhardt, May 13 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[FussyBadger]

A minor variable worth noting there, Leo, is the ease of hitting each respective target. While dodging is a big advantage of the A class, it's also a considerably smaller target overall than a C class behemoth. That said, I agree that the percentages are a bit misleading.

[ZeroCore]

Just a quick note for the Inf invisibility <<(lol wut spelled that one correctly on the first try)
IF they would just run not dash they would be hard visible, thats true, but you dash = dust and sparks behind you, second, you always have a radar, that traces your enemy for a short period of time, therefore you can easy folow it and finish the inf off also stealth or not, if you are repairing and someone comes to you and you are below 20% hp you are dead meat anyway no matter what mech it is.