119 replies to this topic

[Leonhardt]

FussyBadger, on May 13 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

A minor variable worth noting there, Leo, is the ease of hitting each respective target. While dodging is a big advantage of the A class, it's also a considerably smaller target overall than a C class behemoth. That said, I agree that the percentages are a bit misleading.

For the record I did not take this into account because it cannot be measured. It is a subjective value, however I did point out that given the math a C class mech user only needs to hit a little more than half of the time (given direct hits in the scenario because AoE is also subjective based on distance and weapon). In practice I have a lot of time under my belt playing the game so I understand what happens, but in the forums and when making a point one must use mathematical values to explain in order to show facts that can be seen regardless of experience level.

[vonbach]

Quote

How many A-Class do you see playing in every match_

I usually spot 2-3 scouts MININUM, 1-2 infiltrators, 1-2 berserker, and some techinicians.

A.Class hits like another class, have smaller hitbox, dashes like hell and doesn't have any counter possible in the game,

This is one of the reasons you see Team Dm turning into sniper turtle fests. Standing together in a herd of other mechs is pretty much the only defense against the scouts and infiltrators.

Quote

vonbach, on May 12 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

In my Technician I have no fear of C classes at all. I can kill most with no problems.

Quote

Because as a statement its wildly general and lacks any context; as someone pointed out, must be pretty terrible C-Class players. What teir servers are you playing in_ Who specifically are you playing against_ This kind of information doesn't arise, the statement is totally ambiguous. The brief description of game-play associated with the above quote describes a C-Class player who just sits still and takes all the damage.

How clear do you want it_ In my Tech I will hunt C classes sometimes  as a game and once I get close he's helpless.
His firepower doesn't matter because he cant apply it. I was doing this in facility once when I was bored and had
another Tech join in we actually had C classes running away from us, well trying too. Unless he's got someone to
bail him out or he pegs me before I get there he's dead.  I play on 1500-1600 usually.

[FussyBadger]

Leonhardt, on May 13 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

For the record I did not take this into account because it cannot be measured.

Why can't mech size, thus target area, be measured_ Have two folks stand side by side, do a series of screenshots from various angles and compare. I don't see how size is subjective or variable enough to disregard.

This is aside from the overall point that you're making - but it's a noteworthy objective factor that contributes to the A vs C discussion.

[VorteX135]

vonbach, on May 13 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Quote

How many A-Class do you see playing in every match_

I usually spot 2-3 scouts MININUM, 1-2 infiltrators, 1-2 berserker, and some techinicians.

A.Class hits like another class, have smaller hitbox, dashes like hell and doesn't have any counter possible in the game,

This is one of the reasons you see Team Dm turning into sniper turtle fests. Standing together in a herd of other mechs is pretty much the only defense against the scouts and infiltrators.

Quote

vonbach, on May 12 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

In my Technician I have no fear of C classes at all. I can kill most with no problems.

Quote

Because as a statement its wildly general and lacks any context; as someone pointed out, must be pretty terrible C-Class players. What teir servers are you playing in_ Who specifically are you playing against_ This kind of information doesn't arise, the statement is totally ambiguous. The brief description of game-play associated with the above quote describes a C-Class player who just sits still and takes all the damage.

How clear do you want it_ In my Tech I will hunt C classes sometimes  as a game and once I get close he's helpless.
His firepower doesn't matter because he cant apply it. I was doing this in facility once when I was bored and had
another Tech join in we actually had C classes running away from us, well trying too. Unless he's got someone to
bail him out or he pegs me before I get there he's dead.  I play on 1500-1600 usually.

Playing like that against any semi-decent C class player will get you mauled before you have a chance to scratch their paint. C-Classes need a real ability and maybe some other minor buffs. Besides that, the game is very close to balanced. The ultimate decider of balance is skill, you're not as good as your opponent_ You lose. End of story. Don't come on the forums crying for buffs/nerfs because you lost, get better, and learn from your mistakes. A and B classes are in a good spot, like I said, abilities need to be revamped on C classes, and thats it.

Edited by VorteX135, May 13 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[Leonhardt]

FussyBadger, on May 13 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 13 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

For the record I did not take this into account because it cannot be measured.

Why can't mech size, thus target area, be measured_ Have two folks stand side by side, do a series of screenshots from various angles and compare. I don't see how size is subjective or variable enough to disregard.

This is aside from the overall point that you're making - but it's a noteworthy objective factor that contributes to the A vs C discussion.

I see what your saying, but the area where it gets subjective in my opinion is available cover and tactics (including but not limited to team tactics). The size of the mech relative to the map makes a big difference in different situations. Since there are quite a few maps and many different situations I still feel that its hard to hit a real value. That being said its a fact that C-classes are easier to hit, but to what extent is subjective because there are so many variables to take into account in a given situation.

So my only real problem with claiming that I can find an objective value in size is that size is relative to the situation even if it is a fixed value. Since situations make too many variables I made the assumption that it is too subjective for me to calculate in a form outside of game experience.

That being said you bring up a good point and as far as the actual size difference you are right we can objectively measure that number, but it was my hope that anyone who looked at my calculations would see that there is a lot of room for error on the part of a C-class mech pilots aim which I feel compensates for their size relative to that of an A class. Plus their size can be a major advantage to good teamwork, but once again those things are subjective and hard to prove with calculations. Numbers can be manipulated in their presentation to make almost any point and real experience is hard to explain or measure.

vonbach, on May 13 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

This is one of the reasons you see Team Dm turning into sniper turtle fests. Standing together in a herd of other mechs is pretty much the only defense against the scouts and infiltrators.

The prevalence of burst style A class mechs has a lot more to do with current meta incentives created by the tech and the "ball of death" gameplay than anything else. Sniper turtle fests often happen on open maps like Bazaar which is natural since they are wide open. It is not a defense to scouts and infiltrators just a phenomenon of current meta team incentives.

Edited by Leonhardt, May 13 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[vonbach]

I know something is wrong with game balance when I'm at mid level of the scoreboard (at best) with a C class
and I shoot right to the top when playing an infiltrator. And yes people turtle in defense of scouts and Infiltrators.
I've seen it multiple times.

[Sylhiri]

People turtle just because it's the easiest to kill things and it's way easier to do it now since the shield buff and burst/explosive nerf. Number advantage > skill. I would also suggest not using your own skill level to represent your disagreement.

Edited by Sylhiri, May 13 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[mndmtx]

Leonhardt, on May 13 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

mndmtx, on May 13 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

@Leonhardt  the A mechs can easily attack and heal behind cover to full health in ~3-4sec with the healing spark. with C-mech only the brawler can heal effectively in the middle of the battle, and you can't chase an A mech you have to make them come to you with a flack brawler.

the infiltrator can easily follow you hidden with his ability when ever your health is low, and the same he can run away hidden when ever his health is low, this and that didn't come to you
the scout is even better, with you starting the battle in close range using the flack, you can kill your target in 4sec max 6sec, and you  will not lose even the half of your health (fact).
C-mechs are defensive, harder to flank your enemy, you can't hit and run, you can't chase.
with this and that didn't come to your calculations.
and I agree 50 health isn't much, I would like to see better C-mechs by adding more survivability.

Fact infiltrator is easy to see with his ability on. Fact your TTK given has no numeral basis or argument. Fact C class mechs are slow and cannot chase and therefore have a different playstyle. Fact the health spark heals 30% slower as of the new patch and all mechs heal at equal rates (provided there are no internals). Fact even if an A class is at full health if you heal for the same amount of time you gain back the same amount of health. Fact C-class mechs are a different class. Fact C-class mechs are played differently than A-class mechs. Fact C-class mechs use different tactics than A-class mechs. Fact skilled C-class mechs can destroy an A-class user in a 1v1.

C-class mechs have a role to fill and its not a carry role. They are team dependent and are meant to be used in that way. It is in their nature as a slow class. If you want everyone to be equal make all the mechs the same class and give them all the same weapons and call this quake or UT with mech models. Otherwise at some point you need to recognize that this is a team game and mechs are meant to fill roles on teams unlike traditional shooters.

Also I would like it noted that in the vast majority of 2000+ servers where I play it is rare to see any C class use turret mode and that includes brawlers with the only exception being siege which if you didn't know is not often played at 2000+ lvl (at least not at the times I play). So saying that only the brawler can heal effectively in a fight is just plain silly since they never use the ability for the very reason turret mode is despised. You gain health per second and then lose mobility to dodge and thus lose health to skilled opponents.

"Fact infiltrator is easy to see with his ability on" you can't see it in the radar with out radar item. you can use that for scape and attack.

"Fact C class mechs are slow and cannot chase and therefore have a different playstyle." ok agree.

" Fact the health spark heals 30% slower as of the new patch and all mechs heal at equal rates (provided there are no internals). Fact even if an A class is at full health if you heal for the same amount of time you gain back the same amount of health." that's not fare, I think you should finish healing at the same time, how_ not fare_ ok ok. give the c-mech -50% defense while repairing. why is that_ cuz an A-mech health is twice the effectiveness of heath of a C-mech.....it's not fare to take longer healing.

"Fact skilled C-class mechs can destroy an A-class user in a 1v1" I can say only and only with flack brawler(pilots with same skill lever).

over all you can group me with the people who wants the C-mechs a little better. I like A-mechs as they are now.
and for balance please read this and tell me what you think:
https://community.pl...e-at-all-times/

Edited by mndmtx, May 14 2013 - 01:25 AM.

[Sylhiri]

Fact - Blue text over dark grey background is a ***** to read.

Edited by Sylhiri, May 13 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[m3talc0re]

I got bored reading all the replies... but anyway, I think it's funny this guy is "bragging" about killing c-types with his Technician. A mech which is completely unbalanced and has a secondary that can damage a target and heal him at the same time all without having to even aim it...

The mechs are fairly balanced, but not all of them. Reaper needs buffed, Tech needs nerfed. I was playing the other day and trying to level my Reaper. I was trying to kill a C-Type. I got him pretty low on hp and went to get my kill shots. He dropped down into repair mode and my Reaper could not out damage his repair cycle. Lord knows I tried, then eventually a fuzzy bunny, er, tech came by and started repping him back up and I was forced to abandon my attempts. I had already used my detonator on him, so I didn't have that as an option to break his repair rate.

As to the original topic, the mechs may feel somewhat out of balance on a 1vs1 instance, but it ends there. Like someone else mentioned, you get three or so decently skilled c-type pilots and the other team is in trouble. The fight is more about A-types getting in close and C-types keeping distance. That's the fight.

[FrankMarrs]

I'm by no means an expert in this game, but this issue has pushed me to post.

Personally, I don't think it's right when a game feels completely different after a patch. Unfortunately, this definitely seems to be the case after the recent update.

The game has become entirely dominated by A-Type mechs. I've been playing Raider for a while and every single class always posed a different challenge to me.

The fun in engaging combat with an A-Type was that they had more mobility than me, and I got completely destroyed by a good pilot. The thing is, I always felt like I had a chance, and I could always specifically pinpoint my mistakes after losing a battle.

I don't know how else to say this, so here we go. I DO NOT STAND A CHANCE ANYMORE against A-Type mechs. The health increase has made them completely dominating. The only advantage I had against them was burst damage. Hit them hard, hit them good, and after a few shots they are down, and I come out of the fight needing to find a place to repair ASAP. Now I feel like I barely chip their paint, no matter how well my shots are placed, no matter the skill of the pilot. I completely get DOMINATED by light mechs, to the point where I am seriously questioning my choice of mech. This simply shouldn't happen.

The strength of Hawken, to me, was the balance. Every time I got destroyed by someone, I always felt like I learned something new, I always felt a certain respect for the skill of the pilot. This game has now become downright frustrating.

There was no problem with the health. None whatsoever. Please revert to original health.

[Leonhardt]

mndmtx, on May 13 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

"Fact infiltrator is easy to see with his ability on" you can't see it in the radar with out radar item. you can use that for scape and attack.

"Fact C class mechs are slow and cannot chase and therefore have a different playstyle." ok agree.

" Fact the health spark heals 30% slower as of the new patch and all mechs heal at equal rates (provided there are no internals). Fact even if an A class is at full health if you heal for the same amount of time you gain back the same amount of health." that's not fare, I think you should finish healing at the same time, how_ not fare_ ok ok. give the c-mech -50% defense while repairing. why is that_ cuz an A-mech health is twice the effectiveness of heath of a C-mech.....it's not fare to take longer healing.

"Fact skilled C-class mechs can destroy an A-class user in a 1v1" I can say only and only with flack brawler(pilots with same skill lever).

over all you can group me with the want C-mechs a little better. I like A-mechs as they are now.
and for balance please read this and tell me what you think:
https://community.pl...e-at-all-times/

Go to some fight club nights and at least just watch. Then you will see what I am talking about.

[Pyroninja42]

B-types and C-types should get another 25-50 HP boost, respectively. Furthermore, I propose the following balancing method: Each type of mech has a different amount of "heat capacity". A-class mechs get the least, B-types get the middle amount while C-types can fire for VERY long periods of time without overheating. A-types would keep the current amount, whereas B-types and C-types would get adjustments from there.

[vonbach]

That would be nice.

Edited by vonbach, May 13 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[FussyBadger]

m3talc0re, on May 13 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I was playing the other day and trying to level my Reaper. I was trying to kill a C-Type. I got him pretty low on hp and went to get my kill shots. He dropped down into repair mode and my Reaper could not out damage his repair cycle.

I don't think repair speeds vary per class, do they_ I suspect the C-class tossed a repair orb and repaired on top of it. The Reaper out damages a regular repair, but not by much.

[Leonhardt]

FussyBadger, on May 13 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

m3talc0re, on May 13 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I was playing the other day and trying to level my Reaper. I was trying to kill a C-Type. I got him pretty low on hp and went to get my kill shots. He dropped down into repair mode and my Reaper could not out damage his repair cycle.

I don't think repair speeds vary per class, do they_ I suspect the C-class tossed a repair orb and repaired on top of it. The Reaper out damages a regular repair, but not by much.

I am quite certain repair rate is equal for all classes given no internals. With the same internals they remain equal, but for obvious reasons if they take different internals then they can vary.

[OdinTheWise]

vonbach, on May 12 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Balance the A classes.
Who on earth thinks these are balanced_ You have mechs with half the hitbox
at least twice the mobility and every bit of the firepower of a C class.
What dev thought this was a good idea seriously_ I can kill C classes
(most classes really) with my technician its so bad. Hit them with the nerf bat.

I think you need a good wack from the nerff bat, but that's just my opinion.

Edited by OdinTheWise, May 13 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Deadmen_Tim]

Because C classer needs real skill. But they should give it useful ability, no doubt.

[m3talc0re]

FussyBadger, on May 13 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

m3talc0re, on May 13 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I was playing the other day and trying to level my Reaper. I was trying to kill a C-Type. I got him pretty low on hp and went to get my kill shots. He dropped down into repair mode and my Reaper could not out damage his repair cycle.

I don't think repair speeds vary per class, do they_ I suspect the C-class tossed a repair orb and repaired on top of it. The Reaper out damages a regular repair, but not by much.

Nope, the Reaper just couldn't out damage his repair. It was pathetic and frustrating at the same time.

Pyroninja42, on May 13 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

B-types and C-types should get another 25-50 HP boost, respectively. Furthermore, I propose the following balancing method: Each type of mech has a different amount of "heat capacity". A-class mechs get the least, B-types get the middle amount while C-types can fire for VERY long periods of time without overheating. A-types would keep the current amount, whereas B-types and C-types would get adjustments from there.

This is a bad idea. Grenadiers are already bad enough with their spamming.

[FussyBadger]

m3talc0re, on May 13 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Nope, the Reaper just couldn't out damage his repair. It was pathetic and frustrating at the same time.

Huh. I have yet to run into that. Are you using the Slug, AM-SAR, or RPR_ That could be a factor. Does it ever happen versus other classes_ I haven't run into the same issue using the AM-SAR, but I believe that's the highest DPS of all Reaper primaries.