211 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

Guiotine, on May 18 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Quote

Also, you can save your flame responses.

I will never understand how people can go around flaming and being antagonistic in general and then say something like this, it just seems strange to me.

It's a logically fallacious tactic used to try and discredit any opposing opinion that may follow, by claiming dissenting opinions are just flaming and that those opinions are worth less than their own. Whether people use this tactic habitually as a defense mechanism, or intentionally because they secretly understand the weakness of their claims and the backing logic, I don't know.

What I do know is I have never seen someone with a strong argument, confidence in their proof, and a willingness to treat their opponents opinion equal to their own (which doesn't mean they believe opposing opinions can be right, just that they have worth in being heard and defended) to use such a tactic.

[Nept]

http://www.fallacyfi...g/poiswell.html

[RedVan]

Nept, on May 18 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

I don't want the developers designing their game entirely around community desires.  Gaming communities can be singularly whiny and shortsighted groups; they're composed largely of individuals whose interests involve rendering their preferred playstyles easier and more effective, while decreasing the overall skill gap.  Especially nowadays, few players want to be beaten: they'd rather the game lower the bar and even out everyone's skill levels.

Now, that isn't to say that gaming communities never provide useful feedback.  They do.  However, good, skill-based games require that developers sift the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.  Not all opinions - even majority opinions - are good for their "vision" of the game.

+1

It's like music. If artists created music (or any type of artist) that they didn't enjoy creating, they're defeating a good portion of the point in doing it in the first place.

Not everyone has to like it, but there certainly will be those who do. And you can't just let the fans tell you how to make your art, or you'll be creating something that your heart isn't in.

[WarPig]

m3talc0re, on May 18 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

The devs obviously don't listen to feedback whatsoever. Here you have 1,000 people hating the tech and what it's doing to the game. It ruins it. Yet they don't touch it, and instead, compound the problem by lowering burst and increasing armor. Way to go! And even better, they actually seem happy with themselves for putting the mech in the game.

Bugs that have yet to be fixed that are a serious hindrance on enjoying the game. Like firing your HFM, TOW or GL and having nothing happen, even though you get the heat gen and timer to go along with it.

Keep adding sh*t instead of fixing sh*t.

I could probably write three pages of what's wrong, but whatever. Also, you can save your flame responses. I quit playing for 3 days and played a few matches. One decent match after 3 rounds, everything before it sucked. After it sucked, too. I quit playing 4 days and tried again today. No fun to be found. Honestly, this may turn into a goodbye thread. I'm not really sure I'm going to play it anymore. The game has potential, but I see the devs driving this game into the ground.

Interesting.

[ropefish]

WarPig, on May 18 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

m3talc0re, on May 18 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

The devs obviously don't listen to feedback whatsoever. Here you have 1,000 people hating the tech and what it's doing to the game. It ruins it. Yet they don't touch it, and instead, compound the problem by lowering burst and increasing armor. Way to go! And even better, they actually seem happy with themselves for putting the mech in the game.

Bugs that have yet to be fixed that are a serious hindrance on enjoying the game. Like firing your HFM, TOW or GL and having nothing happen, even though you get the heat gen and timer to go along with it.

Keep adding sh*t instead of fixing sh*t.

I could probably write three pages of what's wrong, but whatever. Also, you can save your flame responses. I quit playing for 3 days and played a few matches. One decent match after 3 rounds, everything before it sucked. After it sucked, too. I quit playing 4 days and tried again today. No fun to be found. Honestly, this may turn into a goodbye thread. I'm not really sure I'm going to play it anymore. The game has potential, but I see the devs driving this game into the ground.

Interesting.

very

[SilentJacket]

I'm growing to hate these spammers

[Thyleon]

ropefish, on May 18 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

WarPig, on May 18 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

m3talc0re, on May 18 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

The devs obviously don't listen to feedback whatsoever. Here you have 1,000 people hating the tech and what it's doing to the game. It ruins it. Yet they don't touch it, and instead, compound the problem by lowering burst and increasing armor. Way to go! And even better, they actually seem happy with themselves for putting the mech in the game.

Bugs that have yet to be fixed that are a serious hindrance on enjoying the game. Like firing your HFM, TOW or GL and having nothing happen, even though you get the heat gen and timer to go along with it.

Keep adding sh*t instead of fixing sh*t.

I could probably write three pages of what's wrong, but whatever. Also, you can save your flame responses. I quit playing for 3 days and played a few matches. One decent match after 3 rounds, everything before it sucked. After it sucked, too. I quit playing 4 days and tried again today. No fun to be found. Honestly, this may turn into a goodbye thread. I'm not really sure I'm going to play it anymore. The game has potential, but I see the devs driving this game into the ground.

Interesting.

very

Callout: I don't think you can write a three page paper, let alone one with relevant complaints.

[ropefish]

Thyleon, on May 18 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

ropefish, on May 18 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

WarPig, on May 18 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

m3talc0re, on May 18 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

The devs obviously don't listen to feedback whatsoever. Here you have 1,000 people hating the tech and what it's doing to the game. It ruins it. Yet they don't touch it, and instead, compound the problem by lowering burst and increasing armor. Way to go! And even better, they actually seem happy with themselves for putting the mech in the game.

Bugs that have yet to be fixed that are a serious hindrance on enjoying the game. Like firing your HFM, TOW or GL and having nothing happen, even though you get the heat gen and timer to go along with it.

Keep adding sh*t instead of fixing sh*t.

I could probably write three pages of what's wrong, but whatever. Also, you can save your flame responses. I quit playing for 3 days and played a few matches. One decent match after 3 rounds, everything before it sucked. After it sucked, too. I quit playing 4 days and tried again today. No fun to be found. Honestly, this may turn into a goodbye thread. I'm not really sure I'm going to play it anymore. The game has potential, but I see the devs driving this game into the ground.

Interesting.

very

Callout: I don't think you can write a three page paper, let alone one with relevant complaints.

is natural for people to complain, hate, spam, etc.
because you cant have the ying without the yang (or the bad without good)

[Wasabi_Wei]

I have been able to squeeze more fun from the game by loosening up my expectations (care less and profit) and climbing right into the mud. Since we have Techs now and their ability to heal is so strong I am going to use EMPs on Techs with great prejudice. Since it is raining Slugs nowadays I am not shy about busting out an EOC-Det Raider on open maps, and so on. I am not sure that it is the best response, but it has kept me from getting too upset. "If the game is dirty fighting, then kick 'em in the nuggets."

[Leonhardt]

AsianJoyKiller, on May 18 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Guiotine, on May 18 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Quote

Also, you can save your flame responses.

I will never understand how people can go around flaming and being antagonistic in general and then say something like this, it just seems strange to me.

It's a logically fallacious tactic used to try and discredit any opposing opinion that may follow, by claiming dissenting opinions are just flaming and that those opinions are worth less than their own. Whether people use this tactic habitually as a defense mechanism, or intentionally because they secretly understand the weakness of their claims and the backing logic, I don't know.

What I do know is I have never seen someone with a strong argument, confidence in their proof, and a willingness to treat their opponents opinion equal to their own (which doesn't mean they believe opposing opinions can be right, just that they have worth in being heard and defended) to use such a tactic.

While I tend to distrust taking "absolutes" I have to agree in this situation because by its very nature a debate or argument relies on there being another credible side otherwise there would be no argument. If 1 truth were apparent there would be no dissent. lol

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on May 18 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Nept, on May 18 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

I don't want the developers designing their game entirely around community desires.  Gaming communities can be singularly whiny and shortsighted groups; they're composed largely of individuals whose interests involve rendering their preferred playstyles easier and more effective, while decreasing the overall skill gap.  Especially nowadays, few players want to be beaten: they'd rather the game lower the bar and even out everyone's skill levels.

Now, that isn't to say that gaming communities never provide useful feedback.  They do.  However, good, skill-based games require that developers sift the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.  Not all opinions - even majority opinions - are good for their "vision" of the game.

+1

It's like music. If artists created music (or any type of artist) that they didn't enjoy creating, they're defeating a good portion of the point in doing it in the first place.

Not everyone has to like it, but there certainly will be those who do. And you can't just let the fans tell you how to make your art, or you'll be creating something that your heart isn't in.

To be fair, there's a huge industry built upon creating music for profit, where artistry has less to do with the process of creation than analyzing and figuring out what people are looking to hear from "popular" (relative to the genre/time/etc.) music.
And we've seen this sort of thing happen in the games industry too. It's just business.

However, a counterpoint to my counterpoint (Great, now I'm arguing with myself. It's become rather obvious with classes being out until summer courses start, I've too much time on my hands.), is that Hawken is an indie title. In general, though it's not always true, indie titles have a habit of following the "heart" of things, rather than the wallet of investors. The developers create a game for the sake of creating a great game, rather than trying to simply turn a profit (which is not to say people who work on "for profit" titles don't try to make decent games, it's just that they're often not allowed to due to various reasons).

[hendman]

The OP might have used some harsh wording to vent his feelings, but isn't anyone else noticing the increasing number of posts like this_ Seems a considerable number of players who have been playing for a longer period are disappointed with the direction Hawken has taken.

I know i don't play nearly as much as i used too, and when i look at the gamebrowser it seems to confirm that i am not the only one. Apart from the US West region (which is mostly filled with beginner matches), most other regions show an alarmingly small number of active games going on. Take away the mayhem servers (which are only hosted in US West but show up in all the other regions as well) there is hardly a DM match going on, nor a MA match. You might find a couple of siege matches, and finally three or four TDM matches.

Why don't i play as much as i used too_ Because Hawken got boring. These days it is a grind to get a kill on the board, between the overheating of my weapons and the sustained healing from techs i find myself thinking: what the hell i am doing here_

The plead for a longer TTK was fueled by the ridiculous burst damage from the SS/Eoc/Raider. Fixing it by adding a tech capable of sustained healing (while healing itself), increasing overheating on almost all weapons while lowering dps on most, adding items like the blockade and improving the shield, lowering the damage on the detonator, and finally increasing the armor on all mechs was not the way to go.

It is also this avalanche of changes that makes it hard to pinpoint what exactly made Hawken into a grind, It is not the first time the dev team made so many changes at once that the intended effect got magnified, and ended up making things worse instead of better.

[AsianJoyKiller]

hendman, on May 18 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

The OP might have used some harsh wording to vent his feelings, but isn't anyone else noticing the increasing number of posts like this_ Seems a considerable number of players who have been playing for a longer period are disappointed with the direction Hawken has taken

Honestly, no.
Each patch brings something that a lot of people don't like.

I've been playing Hawken since Alpha, and I've seen plenty of threads about doom and gloom. I recall seeing a rash of "Hawken will be dead in X weeks" threads somewhere around CBE2.

Still, I'm very unhappy with the current state of Hawken.
Things like the implementation of the Technician show little forethought and while they continue to state competitive aspirations, they've done absolutely nothing to actually prove their capabilities and have actively done things that will hurt competitive play.

[Onebullit]

The Technician does not fit the Hawken universe what so ever.  Anybody that says that it does must be insane!!
You can call people that think like me whiners or whatever, nobody cares, everybody has his own oppinion.

I really don't want to sound rude here but it seems that the devloppers are messing Hawken up patch by patch.
Adding new camos and maps is fine but when it comes to team balancing, they are failing bad, very bad.
I'm still seeing unexperianced players in higher rated games and why_  Do they really think that people like to loose
because others can't play the game properly_  Imo they have to get their act together and stop pleasing everybody.

I'm just curious what the next patch will bring to the table and how it will mess Hawken up like previous patches.

Not saying that all they do is stupid or wrong but many things just don't make sense to me.

Like the new shield and the addition of that miserable creature they call the Technician and many many of that to come
in the near future.

Grts,
Onebullit

[Leonhardt]

Lets try and not make this thread into yet another tech complaint thread. That opinion has been well voiced many many times. Not saying I am for or against just hoping we can avoid another thread that will end up being an almost carbon copy of earlier threads that were actually on topic.

Edited by Leonhardt, May 18 2013 - 03:40 PM.

[Thyleon]

Leonhardt, on May 18 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Lets try and not make this thread into yet another tech complaint thread. That opinion has been well voiced many many times. Not saying I am for or against just hoping we can avoid another thread that will end up being an almost carbon copy of earlier threads that were actually on topic.

I don't really think there is a topic in this thread. The OP didn't really make any stance or suggestion so not much to do but discuss things we dislike about the game and things we like about it. While I agree the TTK is longer than before the technician I don't believe the technician is a horrible addition to the meta.

Edited by Thyleon, May 18 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[mr_Badman]

I'm fine with tech, but i blame grenadier class. It is pure cheats, that revGL is real OP and nobody realize it! NOBODY. Remember my words! I warned you.

[LucasAshrock]

AsianJoyKiller, on May 18 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Guiotine, on May 18 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Quote

Also, you can save your flame responses.

I will never understand how people can go around flaming and being antagonistic in general and then say something like this, it just seems strange to me.

It's a logically fallacious tactic used to try and discredit any opposing opinion that may follow, by claiming dissenting opinions are just flaming and that those opinions are worth less than their own. Whether people use this tactic habitually as a defense mechanism, or intentionally because they secretly understand the weakness of their claims and the backing logic, I don't know.

What I do know is I have never seen someone with a strong argument, confidence in their proof, and a willingness to treat their opponents opinion equal to their own (which doesn't mean they believe opposing opinions can be right, just that they have worth in being heard and defended) to use such a tactic.

The most beautiful ,well written and perfect description of the typical "whiner" on internet. May i use your post as signature here and on other forums too_ Believe me or not, i couldn't say any better describing the typical internet idiot pesting a game's forum (and any other kind of forum). Kudos!

Onebullit, on May 18 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

I'm still seeing unexperianced players in higher rated games and why_  Do they really think that people like to loose
because others can't play the game properly_  Imo they have to get their act together and stop pleasing everybody.

I'm just curious what the next patch will bring to the table and how it will mess Hawken up like previous patches.

Not saying that all they do is stupid or wrong but many things just don't make sense to me.

I tried to open a thread asking to lock newbies and unexperienced players to not be able to join 20/24 servers with other players above 1400 ranking points(easily obtainable when brain is on). Got ignored. Enjoy noobs pesting us, don't be surprised if some players leave bored of an idiot fragfest without any form of teamwork

hendman, on May 18 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

The OP might have used some harsh wording to vent his feelings, but isn't anyone else noticing the increasing number of posts like this_ Seems a considerable number of players who have been playing for a longer period are disappointed with the direction Hawken has taken.

I know i don't play nearly as much as i used too, and when i look at the gamebrowser it seems to confirm that i am not the only one. Apart from the US West region (which is mostly filled with beginner matches), most other regions show an alarmingly small number of active games going on. Take away the mayhem servers (which are only hosted in US West but show up in all the other regions as well) there is hardly a DM match going on, nor a MA match. You might find a couple of siege matches, and finally three or four TDM matches.

Why don't i play as much as i used too_ Because Hawken got boring. These days it is a grind to get a kill on the board, between the overheating of my weapons and the sustained healing from techs i find myself thinking: what the hell i am doing here_

The plead for a longer TTK was fueled by the ridiculous burst damage from the SS/Eoc/Raider. Fixing it by adding a tech capable of sustained healing (while healing itself), increasing overheating on almost all weapons while lowering dps on most, adding items like the blockade and improving the shield, lowering the damage on the detonator, and finally increasing the armor on all mechs was not the way to go.

It is also this avalanche of changes that makes it hard to pinpoint what exactly made Hawken into a grind, It is not the first time the dev team made so many changes at once that the intended effect got magnified, and ended up making things worse instead of better.

Multiple reasons.
One is (again) the noobs pesting our servers ruining an organized battle.
An other one can be extremely high ranked players (1700+) not finding a seat to play refreshing the server browser for 20 minutes then close the client quitting.
Some others hated techs, so they left.
Or left because bored of the same repetitive map rotation. Theorically when one day we will have 5/7 maps more all those players will log back, next months.
Some others left becasue bored of bugs.

It's an indie title, not a Sony/EA/Blizzard etc ones, where customers can pretend all now and perfect (perfect just for the whiner so he can be the pro/winner), immediately.

Still, the "all now and perfect, immediately" plague is spreading on internet on every single game. The new generation of gamers seems just made of losers, low skilled players not able to l2p. A stupid brat, shortly.

I still ask what is the difference between the typical mmofps "medic" and tech on hawken, one guy told me this game must be an UT/Quake fragfest game and must be that kind of idiocity or nothing. I don't get why nor when dev said it was gonna be this kind of idiocity without rules or teamwork, a buttonspam pam pam boom boom idiot game

Oh, some left for this reason too: because it's not an idiot pom pam boom only game and brain is required

Edited by LucasAshrock, May 18 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Onebullit]

LOL

[ReachH]

Leonhardt, on May 18 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Lets try and not make this thread into yet another tech complaint thread.

We could make this a general Hawken complaint thread.

HWK are making their game dumber and dumber every patch. By trying to cater to casual pick-ups and making their game 'accessible', all they are doing is alienating everyone from having a long-term experience with Hawken. It has literally become a 'try everything, then put down' game. And for the veterans who have tried everything, there is not much fun left in the game. By making the game revolve around such a dumb, skill-less mech, they have killed the joy of personal skill development.

And yes, I have finally tried tech patch, and I don't like it at all. What they(HWK) think is a new 'team-centric' direction for Hawken, is actually just the death of all that was intricate about earlier versions of the game. By introducing a dumbed down, easy-2-play mech that was never needed in the first place. Get out my game caj mech. Nobody likes you, and you're dumb.

New maps are lovely though.

Edited by ReachH, May 18 2013 - 04:32 PM.