79 replies to this topic

[Teljaxx]

TheVulong, on June 02 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Well, with all these suggestions we're just making Hellfire more complex. It'current functional is OK if you ask me. In the meantime Bruiser's CQC viability is what we actually should focus at.

That is why I was suggesting to make it dual mode. I like the lock on ability and have gotten quite good at getting hits fairly consistently with it. But it is still a bit of a low skill weapon because taking control away from the player after its homing effect kicks in. So I thought that giving it the option of being guided, instead of just automatically seeking, would increase the potential skill ceiling of the weapon. Sure, it is more complex like this, but that is part of what adds to its skill level. to take full advantage of the weapon, you have to learn how to use all of its features well.

For making them better in CQC, I think a combination of a faster launch, with less acceleration time, and a smaller initial spread would fix this. I am fine with the Hellfires not being all that good in CQC, because they do need to have some kind of downside, after all. The main problem currently is that they have the downside of being useless in CQC, but are not really good enough anywhere else to make up for that. So making them useful enough elsewhere, and the problem of being bad for CQC may not be an issue.

Edited by Teljaxx, June 02 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[SirMoranSebastian]

Guided hellfire missiles_

Looks good on paper but that would be a beast of a skill to acquire, it would be disorientating to players because their viewpoint as being central in contrast to the actual hellfire missiles being placed at the right hand side.

Sure some people might understand it enough to become pro with it, but it would make bruisers near unplayable to everybody else. I suggest that this guided missile idea was to replace the current (seemingly non-existant) defence ability, changing the direct viewpoint to a large barrage of missiles instead of the cockpit (X2 maybe X3 hellfire missiles). These missiles can be guided around for a limited distance and time before exploding (meaning plenty of sneaky attack from above with missiles that curve around corners.)

While this is happening, the mech in question is shut down completely (don't ask me how, just say it's overheating massively) and can carry out repairs but is otherwise immobile.

[M4st0d0n]

Laser guided hellfire will deprive them from the only advantage they give in battlle : curved trajectories to allow mech to shoot from behind cover. And then it will raise problem as to finetune splash damage vs direct hit damage.

[Zychon]

I never pass up the chance to add my utterly uninformed freshman opinion much too late on a thread.

Only been playing for a few weeks now, but I can understand why you might think the Bruiser is overpowered, though I disagree.

The Vulcan provides a stream of damage at a high RoF, so there is much less penalty for poor aiming (let's say compared to a TOW rocket). Likewise, the Hellfire will lock on to a target, mitigating the effect of jukes and dodges.

But it pays dearly for those benefits with a lack of direct fire range and slow missile trajectory (with a warning to the target).

In other words, it's a 'Mech for people who play this game with an Xbox controller. That is not to say that there aren't very good pilots who use them (or that non mousers suck), it's just designed to be less twitchy. The better bruiser pilots will work at forcing you into situations that favor their 'Mech. All said, I think that it balances well with the rest of the fleet considering it takes little gunnery skill. Personally, I don't like using them because I don't want to sacrifice the ability to crank out damage at any range (and because I find them a little boring).

If you are having a disproportionate amount of trouble against bruisers, it might be because you are trying to fight them on their terms. If you think they're OP simply because they tend to stroll into an existing dog pile of 'Mechs and mop up the remains, that is one of the few things they are actually good for, and the 'Mech struggles to compete in most other situations.

[M4st0d0n]

Like if it's not enough for my rocketeer to be unable to run away or strafe dodge efficiently, let's force me to face fire while i hope to guide those hellfire that will ultimately be avoided by a strafing scout...

[Silk_Sk]

In my opinion, there's only one way to fix the bruiser: replace both weapons with big red spring-loaded boxing gloves.

[Teljaxx]

M4st0d0n, on June 02 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Laser guided hellfire will deprive them from the only advantage they give in battlle : curved trajectories to allow mech to shoot from behind cover. And then it will raise problem as to finetune splash damage vs direct hit damage.

This is why I was suggesting to keep both modes. Homing missiles work best for when you do not have enough time to fully guide the missiles to your target, or for shooting around corners. And the guided missiles allow for much more precise control of your shots when you can manage it.

And I seriously doubt that having the missiles fire from off center from the player's viewpoint would add any difficulty to guiding them. Other games have had laser guided missiles, and they do not fire from perfectly centered on the player's view. Half Life is a well known example of this, and the laser guidance works extremely well there. Even UT2004, a much more fast paced game, has a mod that gives the rocket launcher laser guidance, and it still worked quite well.

The main problem that I could see with having laser guided Hellfires in Hawken is that it may be too hard to guide them and maneuver properly at the same time. having to keep your crosshairs on your target until the missiles hit means that you will most likely miss if you try to dodge while guiding them. But having the option to still fire them as homing missiles gives you another option for when manual guidance is not feasible.

[TheVulong]

One way or another, changing the concept will cause new balance shifts. Considering that Hawken is gonna be out of beta state this summer i doubt that Hellfire rockets will be totally reworked. Adjusted_ Yes. Reworked_ No. So, i think we can forget about radikal changes here.

Edited by TheVulong, June 02 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[LONEDEADWOLF]

Not sure about this Nerf_ Nah nope Leave them be. I get the idea but not sure if its going to make things better or worst.

[BurnsHot]

I agree with most here that the Bruiser is not OP and actually needs a tweak to make them more viable.

Does anyone else absolutely hate the delay of the Vulcan_  I guess it was done so as to not make the weapon over powered but I would take a decrease in damage in exchange for instant fire.  Changing this weapon could go along way to improving the Bruiser.  I like the idea someone already mentioned of giving it a burst weapon like the Heat or EOC.

The Hellfires are fun and what I like best about the Bruiser, but the lock on times are a pain.   So with a slow start up Vulcan and slow to lock missiles my Bruiser has not seen much play since reaching 25.

[AsianJoyKiller]

BurnsHot, on June 02 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Does anyone else absolutely hate the delay of the Vulcan_  I guess it was done so as to not make the weapon over powered but I would take a decrease in damage in exchange for instant fire.  Changing this weapon could go along way to improving the Bruiser.

The initial spin up is okay. And if the Vulcan ideally put out a !@#$ ton of damage in CQC, it'd be great for balancing.

However, it suffers from a major drawback, something that I would actually classify as a bug. The instant you let off the trigger, the spin resets, and you have to start all over again.

In every other single game I've played with a minigun-like weapon  letting off the trigger does not reset the spin, but merely starts to slow down the spin. This means that you can go around tapping the trigger to keep the spin going so that the gun is ready to fire almost immediately, and if you have to let off the trigger, you do not have to spin up all the way again every time.

This is the way the Vulcan should work. This is one of those things that absolutely needs to be fixed if Hawken wants to be taken seriously.
I mean, let's take a look at the number of games which have figured out how to do it, which is quite a few games. Global Agenda, Tribes: Ascend, Battlefield 3, Planetside 2, Borderlands, Borderlands 2, Firefall, Brink, Earth Defense Force, Hitman Contracts, Grand Theft Auto, and many others that I've played. And heck, there's even more that I haven't played (or forgot about) that do it too.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, June 02 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Zychon]

I can definitely see allowing the momentum on the Vulcan to spin free to reduce ramp-up time. As Burns said, I think it is part of the balancing of the weapon, but I doubt it would break game balance to allow you to keep the barrels spinning. As long as it still reset when you boost.

[TheVulong]

You're going the wrong way now, people. Remember that by adjusting Vulcan for Bruiser you're making OP such mechs as Assault and Berserker so i suggest you not to go into this any further. Hellfire is the actual problem and you know that.

[LONEDEADWOLF]

Good one AJK..I agree...

[Beemann]

SirMoranSebastian, on June 02 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Guided hellfire missiles_

Looks good on paper but that would be a beast of a skill to acquire, it would be disorientating to players because their viewpoint as being central in contrast to the actual hellfire missiles being placed at the right hand side.

Sure some people might understand it enough to become pro with it, but it would make bruisers near unplayable to everybody else. I suggest that this guided missile idea was to replace the current (seemingly non-existant) defence ability, changing the direct viewpoint to a large barrage of missiles instead of the cockpit (X2 maybe X3 hellfire missiles). These missiles can be guided around for a limited distance and time before exploding (meaning plenty of sneaky attack from above with missiles that curve around corners.)

While this is happening, the mech in question is shut down completely (don't ask me how, just say it's overheating massively) and can carry out repairs but is otherwise immobile.

Guide them with a laser a la HL2, no disorientation needed
Think of it this way
People manage to use the Redox, which involves compensating for gun position and consistent leading
Why would it be impossible for them to track with a targeting laser and slap someone with a bunch of missiles in a 1v1_
People can already bank 'nades off of walls
Why would it be impossible for them to use the laser to curve their shots around a wall_
While normal hellfires have their moments of derp, these would be player controlled and reliable. You would learn exactly how well they turn and could use that to plan out your missile path
While normal hellfires have only the option between dumbfire and pray to the rocket gods, a toggled targeting laser  could be turned on an off, to curve dumbfired missiles and leave missiles on the right track alone

Vote Laser-Guided Hellfires 2013

[AsianJoyKiller]

TheVulong, on June 02 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

You're going the wrong way now, people. Remember that by adjusting Vulcan for Bruiser you're making OP such mechs as Assault and Berserker so i suggest you not to go into this any further. Hellfire is the actual problem and you know that.

Simple solution. Remove it from those two mechs.
The Vulcan really, really should not be on those two mechs in particular, and the choice of putting them on there was bad game design. Using the Vulcan on mechs with those particular abilities is significantly more effective than using it on any other mech. It synergizes too well with those mechs. I mean, that's the exact reason we don't have the HEAT Cannon on the SS or Reaper.

I don't even understand why the Vulcan is on the CR-T/Assault, because during Closed Beta 2, the developers literally said that the Vulcan was not supposed to be on them.

[Inhibitor]

Apparently they must have grown to like the gun on assaults/beserkers. They've had plenty of chances through patches to simply remove it from the loadouts. The Vulcan is almost useless on the beserker though it feels like a totally different weapon when used on a crt/assault, especially when used in conjunction with the instant cooldown.

[dorobo]

Jintonic, on May 31 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

I agree with op! Nerf the bruiser, nobody should even try to play it, leave it with 1 gun ( hawkins RPR )

THIS

[TheVulong]

AsianJoyKiller, on June 02 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

TheVulong, on June 02 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

You're going the wrong way now, people. Remember that by adjusting Vulcan for Bruiser you're making OP such mechs as Assault and Berserker so i suggest you not to go into this any further. Hellfire is the actual problem and you know that.

Simple solution. Remove it from those two mechs.
The Vulcan really, really should not be on those two mechs in particular, and the choice of putting them on there was bad game design. Using the Vulcan on mechs with those particular abilities is significantly more effective than using it on any other mech. It synergizes too well with those mechs. I mean, that's the exact reason we don't have the HEAT Cannon on the SS or Reaper.

I don't even understand why the Vulcan is on the CR-T/Assault, because during Closed Beta 2, the developers literally said that the Vulcan was not supposed to be on them.

To counter Scouts, maybe_ One way or another, forget the Point-D. As i said before, Hellfire is the problem here.

[Dreizehn]

The Vulcan being on those mechs also presents possibly the most boring lineup of primaries to field. Different flavours of bullet hoses. Most other mechs have more interesting variety which can culminate in far different roles.