63 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, on June 06 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Yes and anything an "attacker" mech can do, the support can do as well, while being better at other tasks too!

It works both ways obviously when you ignore the fact both are better at the opposite things. The support mechs don't fail at life by doing either role. They just do better if you play them in the support role. And the same is said of the Attacker mechs.

I am talking the general playstyle of the mech, not the fact it can shoot someone far away.

Except I'm not ignoring that.

These so called "fire support" mechs don't actually do anything better than their "attacker" brethren. What does a Bruiser do significantly better than an Assault_ What do the Rocketeer and Reaper do significantly better than the Sharpshooter_ None of these oft stated "fire support" mechs are any better at suppression than other classes. None of them are better at area denial. None of them are better at harassment.

None of the "fire support" mechs do anything to help out teammates via firepower better than any "attacker" mech can.

[GodsHolyMember]

I'd contend that in TF2, the Medic and Engineer are true support roles.  Although they have offensive capability, and can be formidable in capable hands; their true value to the team is the ability to heal, or to place ammo/portals/sentries in key playces for area-denial or sustaining an offensive line.

Sniper could be considered a designated marksman...considering this class is simply oriented towards long-range 1-hit-kills, it really is not a team-support class beyond a well placed Jarate.

If you consider Sniper to be a support class because it is not a front-line skirmisher, than you'd also need to give the Spy and maybe even the Scout the same designations...especially given the Spy's sapper...like an anti-engineer

Support role implies sustaining the team's capacity to pursue an objective.  Sniper doesn't really fill that definition in TF2

[N0stalgia]

AsianJoyKiller, on June 06 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

Akrium, on June 06 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on June 06 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Akrium, on June 06 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Ahhh was confused since you were talking about the tech. But still.. they did outright say they are making some mechs to be easier to use, not necessarily the best option to use for competitive play. Also the reaper isn't that bad of a mech. I've seen enough ppl doing exceptionally well with it against good players to believe it isn't as gimped as some ppl think.

It's just annoying when people go "it's not as good at killing, so it's obviously support".

I looked at it more like, the rocketeer is a back line mech... so it is support. The bruiser is a hybrid assault/support.. as it is going to sit closer than the rocketeer would. But ultimately I don't look at it from a dmg output point of view, but the mechanic of playing the mech in the form that suits it.

"Fire support" is not a role in Hawken. Anything a "fire support" mech can do, an "attacker" mech can do just as well, while being better at other tasks too.

I've played a few matches where there was really good fire support from a grenadier. He just sat back in a safe locale and bombarded the AA. The rest of us just mopped up his mess. I'm not sure any other class could have done what he did better. Just sayin. Also, cheers to another thread derailed by the same crew.

Edited by N0stalgia, June 06 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[Akrium]

While the attacking classes can do damage from range, their dps isn't good from range so they rather be closer and be more front line. The support mechs so far are typically mechs that are more optimally fighting outside the main fight, aka the back line. This could change with new mechs yet to come into the game obviously. Also one needs to understand that Hawken also has mechs that do both roles and are hybrids.

So with your example of the scout.. it actually is one of those hybrids. And it is a hybrid because while it can be on the front line, it can't be there long. It is a hit and run mech. Or similar to the "Carry" in LoL.

[Akrium]

N0stalgia, on June 06 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I've played a few matches where there was really good fire support from a grenadier. He just sat back in a safe locale and bombarded the AA. The rest of us just mopped up his mess. I'm not sure any other class could have done what he did better. Just sayin. Also, cheers to another thread derailed by the same crew.

The tech isn't going anywhere. And now the discussion is on support classes.. which is what the tech is.

[huntersouls]

Tech are ok what im hate it stupid shield use in lvl 25 and 25...im see lot people with that..and that is unfair not heal...all games need tank,dps and healer...im sugest put shied to use to level 15!!!ist unfair sharpshooter,reaper,..use shield in up lvl 15...other think im real love repair is tiem  mech camping..why dont put limit in 7 seg for camping_
Heal the teamis call tactic and balance of game...
Because its borring see  lot people go to sharpshooter and reaper camping and easy away with shield..pls fix that

[Akrium]

AsianJoyKiller, on June 06 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Akrium, on June 06 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Yes and anything an "attacker" mech can do, the support can do as well, while being better at other tasks too!

It works both ways obviously when you ignore the fact both are better at the opposite things. The support mechs don't fail at life by doing either role. They just do better if you play them in the support role. And the same is said of the Attacker mechs.

I am talking the general playstyle of the mech, not the fact it can shoot someone far away.

Except I'm not ignoring that.

These so called "fire support" mechs don't actually do anything better than their "attacker" brethren. What does a Bruiser do significantly better than an Assault_ What do the Rocketeer and Reaper do significantly better than the Sharpshooter_ None of these oft stated "fire support" mechs are any better at suppression than other classes. None of them are better at area denial. None of them are better at harassment.

None of the "fire support" mechs do anything to help out teammates via firepower better than any "attacker" mech can.

Again you are missing the point of them saying some mechs are simply not equal to others, nor will they be. They want some mechs to be easier to play than others.

That doesn't change if something is support or not. The mechanics to which the mech is better played at is what determines it's role in general.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, on June 06 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

While the attacking classes can do damage from range, their dps isn't good from range so they rather be closer and be more front line. The support mechs so far are typically mechs that are more optimally fighting outside the main fight, aka the back line. This could change with new mechs yet to come into the game obviously. Also one needs to understand that Hawken also has mechs that do both roles and are hybrids.

So with your example of the scout.. it actually is one of those hybrids. And it is a hybrid because while it can be on the front line, it can't be there long. It is a hit and run mech. Or similar to the "Carry" in LoL.

"Ranged attack" does not equal "Fire support"

"Fire support" means being better at assisting your teammates through various applications of firepower that are not directly to attacking. This means performing actions like suppression and area denial.
It means that your attacks have superior utility.

Not being a front line attacker does not make a mech fire support. That makes them a ranged attacker.
Not being good at attacking due to gimped weapon mechanics does not make a mech fire support. That just means the weapons are bad.

The Reaper isn't fire support. It's not better at long/mid range harassment than a Sharpshooter. It's mobility doesn't give it a great advantage over a mobility specced SS since ranged harassment requires a lesser degree of mobility.

The Rocketeer isn't fire support. It's not better at ranged harassment than any other mech, and the threat of a Hellfire lock is negligible for ranged area denial. Being hit by a Slug/Sabot combo without warning by a SS is a better way to get people to take cover, and has the added benefit of being much more likely to hit or kill the target in question. Even a HEAT or AR punctuated by a air-bursted TOW works as well at most ranges for harassment as anything involving the Hellfires.

The Bruiser isn't fire support. It just sucks at killing, and as such it's forced to stick with teammates and help them out. It's simply just bad at doing things by itself. It offers no superiority in it's ability to suppress targets with large volumes of fire. It's not better at chipping away at health than any other mech. It's short-mid range primaries and a low-skill capped secondary keep it from doing anything substantial in area denial.

@N0stalgia
Grenadier is the only mech I would consider to fall into a fire support role. It is simply better at area denial than any other mech in the game by a long shot.

It acts the way a fire support class should.
It's takes a bit more skill to use as a direct attacker successfully, but it's greatly superior at using its firepower for utility in a capacity that other mechs can't achieve.

[Akrium]

When did I call "support" fire support_

infact when did I say it had anything to do with dps or damage in general, which includes killing people_

oh i didn't... I just simply stated it has everything to do with the mechanics that best support the mech's playstyle.

As I've repeated this over and over, I'm done.. this is as it usually turns out.. rewording of things and wasting time.

[ArnieF4440]

https://community.pl...hate-this-game/

its not gonna be removed ... just tweaked like everyone has said...

I might point out, that instead of crying about removing it, it would be more productive if you would explain how you would improve it.

Edited by ArnieF4440, June 06 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Teljaxx]

I consider a fire support role something like how the LRMs in Battletech are supposed to be used. They allow a mech to weaken a target before it can reach the others in its group. So that once return fire begins, the enemy is at a disadvantage. They can also act as area denial weapons, because if any target comes within range of them, it will most likely take damage, so the enemy has to plan around that.

I agree that the main mech that fulfills this kind of role in Hawken is the Grenadier. It is really good at controlling the enemy's movements, and delivers consistent damage that is difficult to effectively retaliate to. It is also fairly limited in its ability to finish off mechs at close range, so it works best when it deals the initial damage, and has an ally deal the killing blow.

But of course, fire support is not the only kind of support that exists. As GodsholyMember said, the TF2 Medic and Engineer are examples of other non-combat oriented support roles. the Medic offers support by making his allies more powerful so that they can fight more effectively. And the Engineer's support makes it more difficult for his enemies to fight as effectively by limiting their tactical options via area denial, along with a few other buffs to allies.

i do hope to see more non-combat support classes in Hawken at some point. A true fire support mech, possibly with a weapon similar to the Battletech LRMs, would probably be pretty cool. But having more other options like debuffing enemies, area denial through traps, or non-healing buffs for allies would be good for the variety between the classes. There are only so many different ways to kill your opponents, after all.


As to the main topic, Since the Technician is not going to be removed, I made a suggestion here that I think would greatly improve how it works overall.

[GodsHolyMember]

All indication points to new types of indirect-fire type mechs/weaponry being added.

Perhaps that is what will be needed to break the kinds of stalemates that are caused by a handful of competent Technicians endlessly repairing their tanks on the front lines.

[NuclearXmas]

I understand why you'd feel that way and I can somewhat relate but I feel the tech is a positive change. Objective locations feel like a bit more than just a killing floor.

[Wondrz]

GodsHolyMember, on June 06 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I'd contend that in TF2, the Medic and Engineer are true support roles.  Although they have offensive capability, and can be formidable in capable hands; their true value to the team is the ability to heal, or to place ammo/portals/sentries in key playces for area-denial or sustaining an offensive line.

Sniper could be considered a designated marksman...considering this class is simply oriented towards long-range 1-hit-kills, it really is not a team-support class beyond a well placed Jarate.

If you consider Sniper to be a support class because it is not a front-line skirmisher, than you'd also need to give the Spy and maybe even the Scout the same designations...especially given the Spy's sapper...like an anti-engineer

Support role implies sustaining the team's capacity to pursue an objective.  Sniper doesn't really fill that definition in TF2

Most people dont know what jarate is...... also technician shudnt be taken away..... it doestn really help since you can jut avoid a techy thats healing someone. also amplification = instawin

Also have you ever heard of battle engies_ they use gunslingers + frontier justtice so they attack enemy and let sentry finish off target to get crits when their turret dies

Edited by Wondrz, June 06 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

Same old tech bashing.

[NuclearXmas]

Wondrz, on June 06 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Most people dont know what jarate is...

what.

[Pirits]

Chances are if it's in a game already they will not remove it from said game, because whoever made said game wanted it there and they have different views as to what should happen to said game.

[philsan]

worst idea ever

d:(__/

well thats a hat and eyes muyth and a smoking sigarit

[angryhampster]

Still waiting for the next healer mech.  The ship is already sunk....

We need more healera.  The tech aint strong enough to survive in long battles.  Class b and c healer mechs are needed.  Devs need a new gealer mech now

[Starrphy]

angryhampster, on June 06 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Still waiting for the next healer mech.  The ship is already sunk....

We need more healera.  The tech aint strong enough to survive in long battles.  Class b and c healer mechs are needed.  Devs need a new gealer mech now

Was wondering instead of a healer. One that reduces Heat_ ;O I totally love supporters.