68 replies to this topic

[NBShoot_me]

AsianJoyKiller, on July 01 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

The repair system is actually a great point. Why bother sticking armor on something when you have a swarm of nano-whatevers to endlessly fix you up in a flurry of handwavium_

Why have any armor_  Well, probably to keep the pilot alive, who's probably sitting neck deep in ammunition anyway.  To keep the ammo from being hit from a stray bullet or missile.  Maybe also to keep the arms and legs of the mech from falling off after another mech sneezes near it... though A and B class mechs again don't even have enough for that... .. and it'd be a bit more interesting if you could actually destroy the repair drone on a "healing" mech… even though I’m sure that’d make light mechs a little more oppressive.

I really wish armor played a more important role in this game.  Have armor soak up damage until it's exhausted, but instead of hitting the muffin erm.. repair button to repair your armor, require the mech to return to base to replace damaged armor.  If the pesky floating health-o-matic drone has to stay as it is, have it only heal the "you're not dead until it reaches zero" health pool without doing anything as far as fixing your armor reserve goes.  Maybe even have a cool-down period on the repair bay/lifter for armor refits so pilots can’t RTB every time their armor get’s reduced by 1%.

Edited by NBShoot_me, July 01 2013 - 08:20 PM.

[GodsHolyMember]

NBShoot_me, on July 01 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 01 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

The repair system is actually a great point. Why bother sticking armor on something when you have a swarm of nano-whatevers to endlessly fix you up in a flurry of handwavium_

Why have any armor_  Well, probably to keep the pilot alive, who's probably sitting neck deep in ammunition anyway.  To keep the ammo from being hit from a stray bullet or missile.  Maybe also to keep the arms and legs of the mech from falling off after another mech sneezes near it... though A and B class mechs again don't even have enough for that... .. and it'd be a bit more interesting if you could actually destroy the repair drone on a "healing" mech… even though I’m sure that’d make light mechs a little more oppressive.

I really wish armor played a more important role in this game.  Have armor soak up damage until it's exhausted, but instead of hitting the muffin erm.. repair button to repair your armor, require the mech to return to base to replace damaged armor.  If the pesky floating health-o-matic drone has to stay as it is, have it only heal the "you're not dead until it reaches zero" health pool without doing anything as far as fixing your armor reserve goes.  Maybe even have a cool-down period on the repair bay/lifter for armor refits so pilots can’t RTB every time their armor get’s reduced by 1%.

I think that will have to wait for a different game.  Component destruction and the complete loss of armor plating (a la Reactive Armor in BF3) would be really cool, and especially cool to have in a game with mechs as mobile as Hawken mechs...Sadly the Adhesive team does not want to move in this direction.

I personally would love to have more risk/reward than is presently in the game.  The A-Class lugs around seriously powerful weapons, but guess what, they literally have NO armor...if they even look at a live grenade the wrong way, they should get their face blown off.

Conversely, the heavies should be at risk of getting flanked, and there should be more risk/reward to deploying into turret-mode.  Meaning that they can block 99% of the damage from kinetic rounds using their riot shields, but they will find themselves completely exposed to any easy hat-trick from the rear if they get flanked.

Presently, since armor is arbitrary and aim and firing discipline ends with being able to place a hitscan-round into any available portion of an enemy mech, there's little else that can be implemented without wrecking the balance of the game.

Snipers can't be snipers, marksmen cannot be marksmen, explosives cannot be powerful, missiles cannot be too powerful, volumes of fire cannot be suppressive, etc etc etc...all because of a simplistic damage-model and lack of depth related to combat.  Everything has to be nerfed because aim is not that important and thus takes a backseat.

We're right back at the old days of Quake-Arena and Tribes1 where one simply needs to connect their shots, regardless of location.

[NBShoot_me]

GodsHolyMember, on July 03 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

NBShoot_me, on July 01 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 01 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

The repair system is actually a great point. Why bother sticking armor on something when you have a swarm of nano-whatevers to endlessly fix you up in a flurry of handwavium_

Why have any armor_  Well, probably to keep the pilot alive, who's probably sitting neck deep in ammunition anyway.  To keep the ammo from being hit from a stray bullet or missile.  Maybe also to keep the arms and legs of the mech from falling off after another mech sneezes near it... though A and B class mechs again don't even have enough for that... .. and it'd be a bit more interesting if you could actually destroy the repair drone on a "healing" mech… even though I’m sure that’d make light mechs a little more oppressive.

I really wish armor played a more important role in this game.  Have armor soak up damage until it's exhausted, but instead of hitting the muffin erm.. repair button to repair your armor, require the mech to return to base to replace damaged armor.  If the pesky floating health-o-matic drone has to stay as it is, have it only heal the "you're not dead until it reaches zero" health pool without doing anything as far as fixing your armor reserve goes.  Maybe even have a cool-down period on the repair bay/lifter for armor refits so pilots can’t RTB every time their armor get’s reduced by 1%.

I think that will have to wait for a different game.  Component destruction and the complete loss of armor plating (a la Reactive Armor in BF3) would be really cool, and especially cool to have in a game with mechs as mobile as Hawken mechs...Sadly the Adhesive team does not want to move in this direction.

I personally would love to have more risk/reward than is presently in the game.  The A-Class lugs around seriously powerful weapons, but guess what, they literally have NO armor...if they even look at a live grenade the wrong way, they should get their face blown off.

Conversely, the heavies should be at risk of getting flanked, and there should be more risk/reward to deploying into turret-mode.  Meaning that they can block 99% of the damage from kinetic rounds using their riot shields, but they will find themselves completely exposed to any easy hat-trick from the rear if they get flanked.

Presently, since armor is arbitrary and aim and firing discipline ends with being able to place a hitscan-round into any available portion of an enemy mech, there's little else that can be implemented without wrecking the balance of the game.

Snipers can't be snipers, marksmen cannot be marksmen, explosives cannot be powerful, missiles cannot be too powerful, volumes of fire cannot be suppressive, etc etc etc...all because of a simplistic damage-model and lack of depth related to combat.  Everything has to be nerfed because aim is not that important and thus takes a backseat.

We're right back at the old days of Quake-Arena and Tribes1 where one simply needs to connect their shots, regardless of location.

Right.  And take away the need to search for ammunition and health and the gameplay is dumbed down that much more.  An A-Class having the ability to deal as much damage (or close to) as a C-Class mech is absurd.  As far as the "looks of the mechs go: if the A-Class mechs really did go up in flames after the first or second grenade round/missle hit I'd say the models are pretty close to where they need to be.  A-Class have hydrolics and wiring exposed with little to no armor and the armor ramps up as you move to B and C class mechs.  I really wish armor in this game ACTUALLY WORKED LIKE ARMOR... might give people a reason to aim their shots more rather than POINT AT TEH MOV'IN MECH THINGY AND FIR3!

[AsianJoyKiller]

What's so absurd about a light class doing as much damage as a heavy class_ It's something that's been taught to you as a popular game mechanic that light + fast = weak and heavy + slow = strong.

But objectively, what's so wrong about having them both equally powerful_ It's not something that inherently can't be balanced, so do you think it's an actual problem, or that you just don't like it because of personal preferences_

[NBShoot_me]

AsianJoyKiller, on July 03 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

What's so absurd about a light class doing as much damage as a heavy class_ It's something that's been taught to you as a popular game mechanic that light + fast = weak and heavy + slow = strong.

But objectively, what's so wrong about having them both equally powerful_ It's not something that inherently can't be balanced, so do you think it's an actual problem, or that you just don't like it because of personal preferences_

It's not so much that the light mechs can deal the same amount of damage as the heavy mechs... it's that they can SUSTAIN this equal amount of damage just as long as a heavy mech coupled with the ability to quickly retreat and self repair ANYWHERE at will.  It'd be like an ALSV and a M2 Bradley battling it out while both can deal the same amount of damage for the same amount of time as the other... that would be absurd.

Throw this mechanic in a game and we have Hawken... which means that once you're good enough to dodge incoming fire, why troll around in a C-Class mech ever_  You can deal just as much damage as any mech in the game, C and B classes included, and you have the ability to move fast enough to be able to get to objectives first as well as better control WHERE a battle takes place.. and get away much more easily if you need to repair or follow a slower B or C-class mech that needs to repair.

If an infiltrator had to run back to base after firing say.. 15 rounds from the GL or maybe 450 from the AS rifle, there would actually be some RISK in pushing too far into enemy territory or lone wolfing it in non-DM game modes.  You also wouldn't be able to say.. hold the AA for an entire game only ducking behind a wall to cool down and repair when needed only to pop out and rain destruction down on your enemies at any given moment.  This might also help limit the amount of base-fuzzy bunny that probably still goes on.

Some people like this type of gameplay.. and I'll admin it was fun for a while, but it just got BORING for me as it was either a choice between going for alpha damage (SS) or going for speed (A-Class mechs) and knowing when to commence button mashing as this game lacks location damage and component destruction of any kind let alone anything beyond the most basic hitbox scheme.

[AsianJoyKiller]

NBShoot_me, on July 03 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 03 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

What's so absurd about a light class doing as much damage as a heavy class_ It's something that's been taught to you as a popular game mechanic that light + fast = weak and heavy + slow = strong.

But objectively, what's so wrong about having them both equally powerful_ It's not something that inherently can't be balanced, so do you think it's an actual problem, or that you just don't like it because of personal preferences_

It's not so much that the light mechs can deal the same amount of damage as the heavy mechs... it's that they can SUSTAIN this equal amount of damage just as long as a heavy mech coupled with the ability to quickly retreat and self repair ANYWHERE at will.  It'd be like an ALSV and a M2 Bradley battling it out while both can deal the same amount of damage for the same amount of time as the other... that would be absurd.

Throw this mechanic in a game and we have Hawken... which means that once you're good enough to dodge incoming fire, why troll around in a C-Class mech ever_  You can deal just as much damage as any mech in the game, C and B classes included, and you have the ability to move fast enough to be able to get to objectives first as well as better control WHERE a battle takes place.. and get away much more easily if you need to repair or follow a slower B or C-class mech that needs to repair.

All that points to is that the health/mobility ratio on C-Classes is off though.
If you fix that, then what's the problem_

[Teljaxx]

I still think that 500, 700, and 900 HP seems like it would be better balanced for the three classes. along with bumping each of their movement profiles up a step, so that Cs move like Bs, Bs move like As, and As move proportionally faster. But that is more of an overall game change, and not so much for balancing the classes.

The only firepower difference between the mech types I could see working is if the Cs had better cooling than the As. If they either took longer to overheat, or dissipated their heat faster, that may work. Then they would not be doing damage faster, but it would fit with their higher HP and ability to stay in a fight longer. All too often, I have to back off because my heat is too high before I have to retreat because my health is too low while playing Type-C mechs.

[NBShoot_me]

AsianJoyKiller, on July 03 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

NBShoot_me, on July 03 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on July 03 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

What's so absurd about a light class doing as much damage as a heavy class_ It's something that's been taught to you as a popular game mechanic that light + fast = weak and heavy + slow = strong.

But objectively, what's so wrong about having them both equally powerful_ It's not something that inherently can't be balanced, so do you think it's an actual problem, or that you just don't like it because of personal preferences_

It's not so much that the light mechs can deal the same amount of damage as the heavy mechs... it's that they can SUSTAIN this equal amount of damage just as long as a heavy mech coupled with the ability to quickly retreat and self repair ANYWHERE at will.  It'd be like an ALSV and a M2 Bradley battling it out while both can deal the same amount of damage for the same amount of time as the other... that would be absurd.

Throw this mechanic in a game and we have Hawken... which means that once you're good enough to dodge incoming fire, why troll around in a C-Class mech ever_  You can deal just as much damage as any mech in the game, C and B classes included, and you have the ability to move fast enough to be able to get to objectives first as well as better control WHERE a battle takes place.. and get away much more easily if you need to repair or follow a slower B or C-class mech that needs to repair.

All that points to is that the health/mobility ratio on C-Classes is off though.
If you fix that, then what's the problem_

I’m way off topic with this and as such, this will probably be my last response on this topic in this thread…

The health/mobility ratio is only part of the problem.  The lack of teamplay, the balance issues, the overall generic feel to this game in large part is brought on by otherwise standard gameplay mechanics being nearly completely omitted.  Imbalances in the “skill” of players in this game are also exacerbated by this as the only sacrifice you have to make involves your health pool to get a fast maneuverable mech (same DPS, same ammo count, same just about everything with the perk of a faster repair time the smaller you go).  I’ve listed what I perceive to be problems, and what I have been going over goes above and beyond a simple health/mobility ratio in the C-Class mechs.

I hope this game will do well if the devs keep things as they are, because I doubt they’ll change Hawken’s key “WE’RE DOING SOMETHING NEW!!1”.. “features”..  I personally didn’t care for it and uninstalled the game for a LONG break to see if I change my mind after being Hawken-free for a while.

[Scroticus42]

Well to return to topic a bit (though this page has the typical gamut of salient points regarding whats wrong with class balance, so please devs listen and get it fixed so we can move on with our lives) I can totally understand the OP frustration with some of the mech designs, they do look.......in some cases just bad regradless of the reason.  Not in terms of quality, just in terms of what the overall result looks like to the eye.  I'm sure it takes just as much talent to design the butt ugly Scout as it would the most beautiful and yet utilitarian mech ever devised.  I can also understand that due to the lore as explained by some, being a corporate war involving cobbled together, repurposed equipment, some of the designs make sense.  I like the look of some of the mechs to be sure, but some are a real turn off.  The biggest reason I would advocate tweaking some of them is that it hurts new player perceptions of the game.  I've seen multiple reviewers on youtube try Hawken, make a video that gets tens of thousands or even a little more hits, and one of the first things they mention is how ugly they think a lot of the mechs are.  This is a game.  I don't expect realism or perfect proof of concept, but they do need to make it attractive to the point people want to pilot the things and build the player base.  And yes some (most) people are that shallow.  We as a species don't even like other unattractive real life fellow humans, let alone fake mechs.  So anyway I see both sides here.  I wish there were at least more body parts to mix and match with besides just swapping parts in the same class.

And heres another question thats lore related......if this is a corporate war for a planet......why aren't the mechs divided up into being faction specific_  Why don't we get to pick a side_  Why don't we have team based persistent "capture the planetary sector for resources" type game m odes_  I don't mean on the scale of Planetside (keep it 12 v 12 at the most) but.......oh what this game could be sometimes makes me want to shed just a single tear.

Edited by Scroticus42, July 04 2013 - 07:24 PM.