119 replies to this topic

[Xionos]

Fstroke, on September 03 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Truly fascinating.

I think you misunderstood the point, but the topic is basically over now.

I'll be making a different post with what I think should actually be done about charge weapons.

[GodsHolyMember]

I think that the charging mechanic in Hawken is fundamentally flawed.

First, there's no downside to holding down a charge for an extended period of time
Second, the charging itself is just an optional slower-RoF in exchange for more DPS/range/velocity/all-of-the-above, there's no additional advantage for having proper timing beyond simply having a full charge when you engage.
Third, charging resets arbitrarily after you boost (unless you're using Blitz).
Fourth, charging doesn't make you appear on radar and it doesn't negatively effect your cloak (if you're Infil)

I'd like to give charging weapons more "character" and increase their risk/reward potential as well as situational value both charged and uncharged

• EOC and T32 Bolt - Holding down charge engages the loading mechanism to prepare more firing chambers with explosive pucks/flak-cartridges.
  
  • Over-charging: Keeping the loading mechanism operating for an extended period of time causes the weapon to build up heat and a resonance to accumulate in the bearings of the loading mechanism, ultimately generating a lot of noise and EM-interference which makes one appear on radar
    
  • Firing at optimum: The moment shortly after all EOC pucks/Flak-cartidges are loaded generates no penalty heat from over-drive and a bonus EOC-puck/Flak-cartridge is loaded into the chamber immediately after launch, making a follow-up shot require 1-less puck/cart to be loaded in the follow-up shot (read: shorter time for 2nd charge).
    
  • Firing prematurely: This generates no penalty heat/noise, but no bonus-puck/cart is loaded into the chambers
• HEAT-Cannon - Holding down the charge-button increases the static load on the weapon's ultra-capacitors.  The greater the load, the more powerful the linear-accelerators launch the projectile and the more load is imparted on the warhead, increasing the explosive power due to the nature of the warhead utilizing an overloaded ultracapacitor itself.
  
  • Over-Charging: Continuing to load the capacitors beyond the optimum point does not increase the electromagnatic launcher's performance and an alarm sounds for overloading the capacitors.  Firing after the overload-warning sounds results in additional heat and remaining on radar for longer than normal. Continuing to charge after the overload-warning sounds results in an emergency-grounded discharge followed by a full second degausing to prepare the capacitors for further operation, the weapon cannot be charged or fired for this procedure and the added EM-interference makes one visible on radar.
    
  • Firing at Optimum: The projectile is launched without any penalty heat generated, as a bonus, the following loaded warhead is imparted with a full-damage charge, allowing for maximum damage and AOE even if launched prematurely.  However, the velocity and the range will still be lower due to the ultra-capacitors not providing the maximum discharge to the linear-accelerators in the cannon.
    
  • Firing prematurely: Same results as present, the shell will not fly as fast, as far, or cause as much damage and AOE.

Thoughts_

Edited by GodsHolyMember, September 03 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Fstroke]

I agree. Personally I would like charging to have a slight damage buff while having a higher heat gen penalty and cooldown for a more proportional balance of risk vs reward.

A lot of great suggestions though. I just think auto charging will just break a mechanic that already needs fine tuning.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Xionos, on September 03 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

If you think the toggle idea is dumb because it may give an advantage, you should also think how dumb it is that players can do this RIGHT NOW. They can get almost all the advantages the toggle gives RIGHT NOW. If the toggle shouldn't exist, neither should the option to charge your weapons all the time, 24/7.

I should think it's dumb that somebody has superior skills and biology than me_

Hey guys!
It isn't fair that some people are just better player than others.
Being smarter or faster isn't something we should allow, so let's create options to dumb down mechanics so that inferior players can be on equal standing even if they aren't equal with their opponents.
We better get to nerfing to everything even remotely skill based or that could give people an advantage because they're biologically or mentally superior, so that everybody is on a level playing field.

EDIT:
Jesus Christ.
It's rare that I see anything this dumb on the forums...

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, September 03 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Xionos]

Xionos, on September 03 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

I showed at the very beginning of this post the DPS proof. AJK supported my argument for the increase in DPS.

AsianJoyKiller, on September 02 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Furthermore, the DPS argument is actually a great reason that auto-charging should not be allowed. There should not be options to aid players because they are unable to utilize the weapon on their own to achieve it's maximum potential.

Xionos, on September 03 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

You are supposed to realize that right now, in game, it's very possible that players can dumb down the intended thought process to use a charge weapon.

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

A crutch.
A mechanic that increases ease of use by circumventing the effort or skill of which would normally be there.

Holding down charge weapons all the time, a crutch that currently exists in the game.

AsianJoyKiller, on September 03 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I should think it's dumb that somebody has superior skills and biology than me_

Players who are colorblind are at a biological disadvantage, by this logic they wouldn't deserve a color blind mode.

AsianJoyKiller, on September 03 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

It's rare that I see anything this dumb on the forums...

Edited by Xionos, September 03 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Don't we already have an auto charge mode for some weapons_ I thought the Flak does exactly that.

[Fstroke]

Did I miss something_ Thats the flaks rate of fire. Its the same all the time. Not a charged weapon.

[Sylhiri]

Fstroke, on September 03 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Did I miss something_ Thats the flaks rate of fire. Its the same all the time. Not a charged weapon.

It was kind of a joke, lol.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Xionos, on September 03 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

You are supposed to realize that right now, in game, it's very possible that players can dumb down the intended thought process to use a charge weapon.

That is part of the thought process.

Quote

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

A crutch.
A mechanic that increases ease of use by circumventing the effort or skill of which would normally be there.

Holding down charge weapons all the time, a crutch that currently exists in the game.

Let me emphasize a part of that for you.

"...by circumventing the effort or skill..."

If you are manually holding a charge, you are not circumventing the effort or skill.
That means you are ACTIVELY using skill and ACTIVELY exerting effort.

It's not a crutch because the player does this all on their own.

Quote

Players who are colorblind are at a biological disadvantage, by this logic they wouldn't deserve a color blind mode.

That's a BS argument and you know it.
Colorblindness is tantamount to a handicap when it comes to gaming. There is nothing the player can do to avoid it and it gives them unique disadvantages.
Unlike reaction time, or inaccuracy, you can't train yourself to be less colorblind.

However hand cramps from holding down the charge to much_
That's completely avoidable. It's a case of using your brain to avoid injury from improper playing practices.
It boils down to "If something your doing keeps hurting you, stop doing it."

Play smarter, not harder.
Learn how to use charged weapons properly so that you're not charging them all the time.

[Fstroke]

Sylhiri, on September 03 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Fstroke, on September 03 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Did I miss something_ Thats the flaks rate of fire. Its the same all the time. Not a charged weapon.

It was kind of a joke, lol.

Sorry ill see myself out now.

[Gunmoku]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 03 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

EDIT:
Jesus Christ.
It's rare that I see anything this dumb on the forums...

I'm gonna have to agree with that.  It's like arguing to a wall.  ...Actually, that's insulting the wall.

In the meantime, I'm outta here.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Gunmoku, on September 03 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I'm gonna have to agree with that.  It's like arguing to a wall.  ...Actually, that's insulting the wall.

I see it like this.

You can get a window out of the way by punching through the glass. It's sure is fast and efficient in the short term, but it's better overall just to open it normally, even if it's not quite as fast and takes a little more effort.

[Krellus]

Gunmoku, on September 03 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 03 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

EDIT:
Jesus Christ.
It's rare that I see anything this dumb on the forums...

I'm gonna have to agree with that.  It's like arguing to a wall.  ...Actually, that's insulting the wall.

In the meantime, I'm outta here.

AJK and Gumoko, there's no need for insults. I like the toggle idea. Dumbing down etc yeah maybe, i dunno, i dont really mind if so. It would just make the game more fun for me. So, yeah, toggle, and I'll suffer the disad's that come with it (charged up warning sound, for instance) for the convenience.

[Teljaxx]

Another reason I am against having auto charging, is that it would basically turn the charging weapons into something else. Currently, you have to wait for the weapon to reload, then either fire it or charge it. But if it automatically started charging as soon as it was done reloading, then that would basically make it so that the charge time was part of the base reload time. Then being able to fire an uncharged shot would be more like circumventing part of the reload time at the cost of a weaker shot.

So then why not make other weapons work this way_ Why not make it so that the Slug Rifle could be fired faster and weaker, or slower and stronger like the HEAT Cannon_ Or why not make the Flak Cannon work just like the Bolt_

Whether or not charging weapons is a conscious choice by the player can fundamentally alter how the weapons work. And this is a part of what differentiates them from each other.

[M4st0d0n]

Charging or Hellfire lock as it is now, it's a bit weird in term of game mechanics. I dont always see the point of the devs to loose the charge or lock on when boosting forward. I dont deny it requires a bit more learning to efficiently use these, but compared to other absurdely easy mechanics, it just give the impression that they just dont know where they're going in term of game mechanics.

[Dinre]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Physical discomfort from improper use is not a design flaw. It's a human error.

Hahahahaha.  Quotes like this are why usability/user-experience professionals stay employed.  =p

[AsianJoyKiller]

Dinre, on September 04 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Physical discomfort from improper use is not a design flaw. It's a human error.

Hahahahaha.  Quotes like this are why usability/user-experience professionals stay employed.  =p

Well, in this case the user has admitted that they're going out of their way to repeatedly perform an unnecessary action that causes them pain.

[Sylhiri]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 04 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Well, in this case the user has admitted that they're going out of their way to repeatedly perform an unnecessary action that causes them pain.

Some people like that sort of thing you know.

[Dinre]

AsianJoyKiller, on September 04 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Dinre, on September 04 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Physical discomfort from improper use is not a design flaw. It's a human error.

Hahahahaha.  Quotes like this are why usability/user-experience professionals stay employed.  =p

Well, in this case the user has admitted that they're going out of their way to repeatedly perform an unnecessary action that causes them pain.

I think you are missing the point, but that's not uncommon.

Here is the gist of it: Just because we as designers or we as fellow consumers decide that someone is doing something "wrong" (read: different)... that doesn't change the other person's experience at all.  In fact, telling someone they are "wrong" typically worsens the experience even more and is an un-empathetic approach and not very respectful.  If we want to elevate our effectiveness with others, it's better to validate the experience someone is having and try to improve the experience through instruction (customer modification), design iteration (product modification), or some combination of the two.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Dinre, on September 04 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 04 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Dinre, on September 04 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on September 01 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Physical discomfort from improper use is not a design flaw. It's a human error.

Hahahahaha.  Quotes like this are why usability/user-experience professionals stay employed.  =p

Well, in this case the user has admitted that they're going out of their way to repeatedly perform an unnecessary action that causes them pain.

I think you are missing the point, but that's not uncommon.

Here is the gist of it: Just because we as designers or we as fellow consumers decide that someone is doing something "wrong" (read: different)... that doesn't change the other person's experience at all.  In fact, telling someone they are "wrong" typically worsens the experience even more and is an un-empathetic approach and not very respectful.  If we want to elevate our effectiveness with others, it's better to validate the experience someone is having and try to improve the experience through instruction (customer modification), design iteration (product modification), or some combination of the two.

I get that, but to me, this is like balling your fist around a nail so you get a good grip on it, but then complaining when you smash your hand with the hammer.

It makes me think, "No duh. Sure it's effective and efficient, but it's also dumb to keep doing that."