127 replies to this topic

[LU0P10]

Wow - there are plenty of good ideas in this thread... cannot quote all of them...would love to see them and try...

[ReachH]

MexichanMan, on September 10 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Internal Name: Aerial Weapon Stabilizers
Effect: Reduces weapon accuracy penalty while hovering.
Slots: 2

Internal Name: Combat Scanners
Effect: When an enemy is within 75m, displays their item cool-downs.
Slots: 3

Internal Name: Salvage Unit
Effect: destroying enemy equipment decreases the cool-down on your own equipment.
Slots: 2

Aerial accuracy I feel should be a universally balanced thing, not an internal.

The scanners I like, but feel should be 1 slot. Sort of part of a package for people who play CBQ at the front, who want an extra edge with more info.

The salvage is too much like the killstreak internals people wanted to avoid Oh 'equipement', as in turrets and barriers. I guess this adds to the risk and opportunity cost of using such items, its a good idea to play around with. It's importance will become more apparent as competitive usage of items develop I guess

Edited by ReachH, September 16 2013 - 10:36 PM.

[Teljaxx]

ReachH, on September 16 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

I like the targeting data thing, it gives reason for coordinated team builds to use point men. I can envision more open map design with vision blockers, but where weapons like revgl can be combined with extended radar and front men to shell enemy locations. Its an interesting concept that could come more into play as competition and maps develop themselves.

I got the idea for this from the C3 network in Battletech. This piece of equipment allows any mech that is carrying one to share their targeting data with the other mechs that have one equipped. It is also basically how the targeting works in MWO, and one of the main things I actually like about that game.

ReachH, on September 16 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Ground sonar is also interesting, I feel it is a simpler, more powerful mechanic than the data thing. It would need to be tested, and I think chances are slim of it being viable, but it is interesting and different. The concept could be saved and implemented in different ways as well.

I figure the limitation of having the sonar not work in the air, and not detecting stationary mechs are good limitations. Then make it take up four, or possibly five slots, while the Targeting Network only needs two slots should make both of them viable. And if not, then giving it a fairly large max range, instead of infinite range should work.

The sonar should also be incompatible with the Targeting Network. Both for the mech equipping them, and any mech with sonar should not receive radar info from the network.

ReachH, on September 16 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

The repair orb damage bonus I didn't like at first, because it encourages snowballing effects, but then I thought about the possibility of combining with the heal charge item. Also sitting on health stacks is more common in pubs, and less common in organized scrims - although the snowballing effect is again a major factor. Worth testing, but I don't think it will be viable how the game currently is. It would be a major, game changing thing, and that sort of change is better suited to a universal change rather than an optional item. (We don't want options to be required, like the tech, etc. It's a rule of thumb for finding game breaking things imo, when optional things are necessary.)

There would have to be some incompatibility balancing between these, and the existing internals. Though, I also think that there needs to be more incompatibility between the existing internals, like the Armor Fusor and Reconstructor should not be useable together. This would help fix a lot of the snowballing effects with the internals.

I also figure that not having the ability to use repair orbs to gain any health is a pretty significant tradeoff for a damage boost. Especially if this internal was also incompatible with any of the armor regeneration internals.

Or it could be absolutely ridiculous, and change all HP regeneration, including internals, manual repairs, and the Helix, into a damage bonus as well.

ReachH, on September 16 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Those were the ideas that warranted commenting on from that bunch I feel. Also, if I may suggest renaming the coolant thing to something with heat engines or pumps, just makes more sense imo

I was thinking Liquid Coolant, because it is using the mech's fuel as the coolant. Since real rockets use supercooled liquid hydrogen as fuel, I thought that might make sense as a jury-rigged coolant system. Plus, it should make for an interesting game mechanic.

[ShadowWarg]

ReachH, on September 16 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

MexichanMan, on September 10 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Internal Name: Aerial Weapon Stabilizers
Effect: Reduces weapon accuracy penalty while hovering.
Slots: 2

Aerial accuracy I feel should be a universally balanced thing, not an internal.

Its funny you say that because there are a good number of internals in the thread that should be main stream mechanics. Maybe once Hawken starts evening back out we can talk about which of these idea would be better implemented as permanent game mechanics.

ReachH, on September 16 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

It's this sort of thinking that is most immersive, and identifies Hawken as a MECH FPS, where you feel like a pilot, rather than just another shooter, with robots, where you feel like a floating screen with a gun and a hitbox. It was this feeling that was lost when items were given a recharge rather than a charge, or radar scramblers were no longer common after CB.

I think one of Hawkens greatest potentials is in the EU resource that they are using for Siege. If that was brought into the rest of the game as being a main game mechanic that would really help separate Hawken from other games. I'll use your take on items as an example: what if instead of having static recharge timers for items, they required X amount of EU to active the them_ Just like in siege EU could drop from downed mechs, and like you said in a previous post, in high level games you can't just sit on a charge or else your making yourself a target but at the same time EU is a valuable resource. It prompts you to play smarter and not harder.

This could go even deeper if it was required for both the use of abilities and item. Now your forced to think about your situation and decide when is it best to use an item or your ability.

I would love to see EU as a main game mechanic.

Also what about ability altering internals_ I don't mean that the internal complete change the ability into something else, but alter them so that the still serve the same function but in a different way. I.E. the scout's ability is to instantly gain fuel back correct_ Well what if the internal made it so the fuel regeneration was buffed several times for x seconds. Its the same function just a different execution.

[BlackCephie]

Internal name:  Reverse Thrusters
Effect:  Replaces the quick turn boost with reverse boosting
Potential for advanced technical application: Allows pilots to retreat while maintaing a forward facing line of sight. Allows for a completely different dynamic in terms of advance maneuvers.
Number of slots: 3

Edited by BlackCephie, September 18 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[Silverfire]

BlackCephie, on September 18 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Internal name:  Reverse Thrusters[/font]
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Effect:  Replaces the quick turn boost with reverse boosting[/font]
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Potential for advanced technical application: Allows pilots to retreat while maintaing a forward facing line of sight. Allows for a completely different dynamic in terms of advance maneuvers.[/font]
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Number of slots: 3[/font]

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]In regards to the backwards dodge.[/font]

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]AsianJoyKiller, on November 21 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:[/font]

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Been discussed since Alpha.

The consensus is always no.

Want to know why_

The reverse dash mechanic is one that reduces how much thought you have to put into movement and making sure you're well positioned. If you accidentally run into a ambush, you can easily back dash to remove yourself immediately and place distance between you. It also trivializes close quarters combat play, as it allows you to continuously back away from a CQC class without having to turn your back on them, all while being able to periodically fire at them. When you learn to think about your positioning more, and don't overextend, you'll find you never need a back dash.

There's also the fact that it trivializes the skill of those who use 180 retreat tactics.[/font]


Very valid, so no back dodge, or boosting.  If you learn positioning correctly, there would be no need for a "OH SH*T, GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE" button. That does not add depth at all.  Internals should enhance player experience, not cover their asses for their own mistakes.

I don't mean to shut you down like that, but I've seen the argument more than enough times and it's pretty much the same answer among the veteran community members: No, for the previously mentioned reasons.

Edited by Silverfire, September 18 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[PartyTime]

Afterburner, 4 slot internal, incompatible with fuel converter "due to impurities caused by hybrid fuel system"

Flight speed increased by 3.6 m/s,
air acceleration increased by 0.30 m/s,
4 m/s faster boost speed,
boost acceleration increased by 0.30 m/s
dodges are 2m/s faster
35% more fuel consumption during all boost dodge and flight activities because afterburners are thirsty,
25% increased weapon spread after dodging for 2 seconds that applies to all weapons, can refresh duration and stack but never exceeds 2 second duration, because "contemporary mech design is not equipped to handle high velocity maneuvers, over spec operation leads to excessive strain on joints and malfunctions in weapons control, requiring recalibration"


this would be good on larger mechs- particularly c classes in turret mode, but less advantageous on a classes due to smaller fuel tanks and being unable to use air compressor. however it would still offer evasive ability with regulated use of boosting for all size mechs without making it a dominant combat tool due to both its size and drawbacks.

Edited by PartyTime, September 19 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[Grogovich]

Just wanted to re-iterate how many awesome ideas are in this thread. Almost say this is the best suggestion thread on these forums so far.

Keep them coming!

[ShadowWarg]

PartyTime, on September 19 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Afterburner, 4 slot internal, incompatible with fuel converter.

Flight speed increased by 3.6 m/s,
air acceleration increased by 0.30 m/s,
4 m/s faster boost speed,
boost acceleration increased by 0.30 m/s
dodges are 2m/s faster
35% more fuel consumption during all boost dodge and flight activities, 25% increased weapon spread after dodging for 2 seconds, can stack.

I have a slight suggestion to this idea Idea:
Internal name: Afterburners
Effect: Double tapping boost while on the ground or in the air rockets your mech in the forward direction. double tapping will dodging will cause the same effect in the direction you dodge in but will also rotate your mech's torso to face that direction. Afterburner boosting comes at the cost of all your fuel and the distance you travel is equivalent to the amount of fuel you had at the time of the boost.

[ReachH]

ShadowWarg, on September 17 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

ReachH, on September 16 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

It's this sort of thinking that is most immersive, and identifies Hawken as a MECH FPS, where you feel like a pilot, rather than just another shooter, with robots, where you feel like a floating screen with a gun and a hitbox. It was this feeling that was lost when items were given a recharge rather than a charge, or radar scramblers were no longer common after CB.

I think one of Hawkens greatest potentials is in the EU resource that they are using for Siege. If that was brought into the rest of the game as being a main game mechanic that would really help separate Hawken from other games. I'll use your take on items as an example: what if instead of having static recharge timers for items, they required X amount of EU to active the them_ Just like in siege EU could drop from downed mechs, and like you said in a previous post, in high level games you can't just sit on a charge or else your making yourself a target but at the same time EU is a valuable resource. It prompts you to play smarter and not harder.

This could go even deeper if it was required for both the use of abilities and item. Now your forced to think about your situation and decide when is it best to use an item or your ability.

I would love to see EU as a main game mechanic.

Also what about ability altering internals_ I don't mean that the internal complete change the ability into something else, but alter them so that the still serve the same function but in a different way. I.E. the scout's ability is to instantly gain fuel back correct_ Well what if the internal made it so the fuel regeneration was buffed several times for x seconds. Its the same function just a different execution.

Making Items resource dependent is defo an interesting idea. However it adds another layer of complexity to consider for map balance. How do we stop resource node control from giving too much momentum_ How can teams play 'dry' with temporarily no access to resources_ As long as these points can be addressed, I fully support making items less of a certainty, and more of a gameplay consideration - something that gives advantages, but also requires actions to obtain, actions other than 'play defensive for 45 seconds, then alpha strike'.

[PartyTime]

in my opinion we should have more internals that mimic tuning options, because this would give a good comparison debate between tuning point distribution and whether or not to run tuning internals,

for another example,

Auxiliary pumps, 3 slot internal, incompatable with evasion device or power surger "due to incompatibilities with core operation"

3 m/s increased run and walk speed
1 m/s acceleration
0.18 second dodge cooldown reduction (does not apply to air dodge)
0.25 second reduction in recovery time after landing

ground dodging generates heat, 20% of your heat bar per dodge but is reduced .7% per point in heatsinks (13% with full heatsinks), due to (increased heat generation beyond normal cooling capacity due to additional hydraulics systems)

cannot dodge while overheated due to safety mechanisms

or

Weapon Booster, 3 slot internal, incompatible with fuel converter and replenisher "due to incompatibilities with resource management"

5% increased weapon reload speed
2% increased damage
mech fuel generation decreased by 2.5 liters a second while weapons are reloading  "due to power leech"
mech fuel reserves reduced by 5 liters as reserve for weapon booster.

Edited by PartyTime, September 19 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[PartyTime]

ReachH, on September 19 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Making Items resource dependent is defo an interesting idea. However it adds another layer of complexity to consider for map balance. How do we stop resource node control from giving too much momentum_ How can teams play 'dry' with temporarily no access to resources_ As long as these points can be addressed, I fully support making items less of a certainty, and more of a gameplay consideration - something that gives advantages, but also requires actions to obtain, actions other than 'play defensive for 45 seconds, then alpha strike'.

sorry for the double post, but imo they should spread 3-15 nodes or so, with only a few that randomly activate after a set interval. the ones that are active will be displayed either on radar or on the overlay as you get close to them. having a large number with simultaneous eu spawns would make resource control on the nodes themselves very difficult, with battles instead happening in a more economical fashion around chokepoints.

Edited by PartyTime, September 19 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[ReachH]

Having the internal system as an horizontal upgrade add-on to the tuning system (which is strictly vertical) is an interesting idea. e.g. internals provide similar kinds of upgrades as the various tuning choices, but deal in horizontal tweaks (like air dodge in relation to air dynamics) to augment the tuning system.

[ReachH]

PartyTime, on September 19 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

ReachH, on September 19 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Making Items resource dependent is defo an interesting idea. However it adds another layer of complexity to consider for map balance. How do we stop resource node control from giving too much momentum_ How can teams play 'dry' with temporarily no access to resources_ As long as these points can be addressed, I fully support making items less of a certainty, and more of a gameplay consideration - something that gives advantages, but also requires actions to obtain, actions other than 'play defensive for 45 seconds, then alpha strike'.

sorry for the double post, but imo they should spread 3-15 nodes or so, with only a few that randomly activate after a set interval. the ones that are active will be displayed either on radar or on the overlay as you get close to them. having a large number with simultaneous eu spawns would make resource control on the nodes themselves very difficult, with battles instead happening in a more economical fashion around chokepoints.

Forcing battles to move around by random resource activation is an interesting concept. But the problem with increasing the amount of nodes is that it trivializes the whole thing. Which can be a good thing. Then resource nodes become POIs rather than objectives, like natural high ground or something. Comparable to watch towers, rocks, and steam vents in SC2 or the various things around a MOBA map. Or the ammo and armor pickups in quake.

Still this is a radical new direction in gameplay and will require a lot of work, particularly with regards to map design. It's a lot of work :/

Edited by ReachH, September 19 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[PartyTime]

ReachH, on September 19 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

PartyTime, on September 19 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

ReachH, on September 19 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Making Items resource dependent is defo an interesting idea. However it adds another layer of complexity to consider for map balance. How do we stop resource node control from giving too much momentum_ How can teams play 'dry' with temporarily no access to resources_ As long as these points can be addressed, I fully support making items less of a certainty, and more of a gameplay consideration - something that gives advantages, but also requires actions to obtain, actions other than 'play defensive for 45 seconds, then alpha strike'.

sorry for the double post, but imo they should spread 3-15 nodes or so, with only a few that randomly activate after a set interval. the ones that are active will be displayed either on radar or on the overlay as you get close to them. having a large number with simultaneous eu spawns would make resource control on the nodes themselves very difficult, with battles instead happening in a more economical fashion around chokepoints.

Forcing battles to move around by random resource activation is an interesting concept. But the problem with increasing the amount of nodes is that it trivializes the whole thing. Which can be a good thing. Then resource nodes become POIs rather than objectives, like natural high ground or something. Comparable to watch towers, rocks, and steam vents in SC2 or the various things around a MOBA map. Or the ammo and armor pickups in quake.

Still this is a radical new direction in gameplay and will require a lot of work, particularly with regards to map design. It's a lot of work :/

maybe even go so far as design a new gamemode around this idea similar to ctf or bombing run, where the objective is to get your eu generator through opposition, with the occasional generator interface to charge up your team.
https://en.wikipedia...iki/Bombing_Run

Edited by PartyTime, September 19 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[ReachH]

many resource nodes would add a lot of flavour to any potential CTF/BR game modes.

[PartyTime]

ReachH, on September 19 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

many resource nodes would add a lot of flavour to any potential CTF/BR game modes.

could even add dynamics on the map that require eu to function so that getting charged is a necessity in order to capture, so that those good enough to do it without power ups will still need to defend the generator while charging, like the objective based assault game mode from ut.  I know i'm doing a lot of comparing here, but assault and bombing run were two of the more difficult but fun game modes from back in the day.

all i know is, we need more gametypes that revolve around EU, i like the gimmick and we should be fighting over it more.

Edited by PartyTime, September 19 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[ArachII]

At the moment we have covered (I include internals present in the game):
-Weapon mods;
-Movement mods (dodge, boost, fuel, jump, hovering, landing, etc);
-Items mods;
-Radar mods;
-Heating management mods;
-On hit/when hit;
-On death/on kill;
-Tunning/stat mods;
-Collecting mods (EU, repair orbs, scrap, etc).

Is there a subject we have not touched yet_

[ShadowWarg]

ReachH, on September 19 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

ShadowWarg, on September 17 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

ReachH, on September 16 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

It's this sort of thinking that is most immersive, and identifies Hawken as a MECH FPS, where you feel like a pilot, rather than just another shooter, with robots, where you feel like a floating screen with a gun and a hitbox. It was this feeling that was lost when items were given a recharge rather than a charge, or radar scramblers were no longer common after CB.

I think one of Hawkens greatest potentials is in the EU resource that they are using for Siege. If that was brought into the rest of the game as being a main game mechanic that would really help separate Hawken from other games. I'll use your take on items as an example: what if instead of having static recharge timers for items, they required X amount of EU to active the them_ Just like in siege EU could drop from downed mechs, and like you said in a previous post, in high level games you can't just sit on a charge or else your making yourself a target but at the same time EU is a valuable resource. It prompts you to play smarter and not harder.

This could go even deeper if it was required for both the use of abilities and item. Now your forced to think about your situation and decide when is it best to use an item or your ability.

I would love to see EU as a main game mechanic.

Also what about ability altering internals_ I don't mean that the internal complete change the ability into something else, but alter them so that the still serve the same function but in a different way. I.E. the scout's ability is to instantly gain fuel back correct_ Well what if the internal made it so the fuel regeneration was buffed several times for x seconds. Its the same function just a different execution.

Making Items resource dependent is defo an interesting idea. However it adds another layer of complexity to consider for map balance. How do we stop resource node control from giving too much momentum_ How can teams play 'dry' with temporarily no access to resources_ As long as these points can be addressed, I fully support making items less of a certainty, and more of a gameplay consideration - something that gives advantages, but also requires actions to obtain, actions other than 'play defensive for 45 seconds, then alpha strike'.

Someone brought up the same question in the post I started about the same idea: https://community.pl...hs/#entry351840

SilentJacket, on September 18 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

MrShade_, on September 18 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

SilentJacket, on September 18 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

What about mechs that take on a support role_

EU would just go to the front line

If there were refueling stations around the map, the main base would probably be one of them. Support would have to either find a station or run back.

Wouldn't that just encourage camping_

To your first comment, battles normally take place all over the map and repair orbs are usually always scatter around the field. The only time orbs are in a cluster is after a large/epic battle, enough for even the support guys to come in after and heal. The EU Charges would be available the same way, dropped from downed mechs. You could probably double their use by having EU dropped from mechs heal just like repair orbs do. I'm basically saying that the "front line" is constantly changing so EU would be just as abundant as repair orbs are now.

For your second comment about the stations and camping, there is the possibility for new items to help replenish EU in a tight spot. For example a TEMPORARY portable EU station item with low heath and a limited life span could help for team play, as well as a personal EU charge item similar to repair charge item.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think having permanent EU nodes or dispenser is the best way to go about this if EU resource management is expanded to the rest of the game, rather the EU placement is completely dynamic as it would fall from downed mechs the same way repair orbs do. And of course mechs should start out with x amount of EU when spawning.

Also so this stays relevant to the topic.

Internal name: EU Tank
Effect: increases the amount of max EU your mech can carry

Internal name: EU Refiner
Effect: reduces the EU cost for items and/or ability use by x%

Edited by ShadowWarg, September 19 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[ShadowWarg]

ArachII, on September 19 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

At the moment we have covered (I include internals present in the game):
-Weapon mods;
-Movement mods (dodge, boost, fuel, jump, hovering, landing, etc);
-Items mods;
-Radar mods;
-Heating management mods;
-On hit/when hit;
-On death/on kill;
-Tunning/stat mods;
-Collecting mods (EU, repair orbs, scrap, etc).

Is there a subject we have not touched yet_

Yes. We haven't actually talked about which internals currently should actually remain or at least be tweaked. I think we have a pretty good idea about which ones should completely go, but it may help to talk about those to.