98 replies to this topic

[Leonhardt]

FuryMonster, on December 15 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Im not saying nerf this mech. I think this mech is in the best spots its ever been, I was just chiming in the the discussion/arguement that people were having about the SS

also I never said a player should be punished because hes landing his shots. I was stating how potent this mech can be WHEN a player is capable of landing his shots consistently.

I see. Perhaps I jumped to conclusions sorry about that. There is a general negative connotation with the tech so I figured that connecting the two led to a similar situation where one would want a nerf.

How would you feel about giving the SS a small dodge cool down buff to its base stats_ It is currently sitting at 1.45 making it slow to move in all directions. If it were pulled down to 1.35-1.3 this would give the SS some movement capabilities, but still be really slow in the general sense meaning that being out of position is still just as easily punished. It also doesn't change the damage output of the mech.

[Rei]

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

FuryMonster, on December 15 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Its necessary because it punishes people for bad positioning from extreme distances and does massive damage. ANY team can run it if the person playing SS is good not WTF AMAZING just good. It doesnt require amazing amounts of skill to press powershot and do 36% more damage and blow someone up at half hp. It does take skill to be able to live 1v1 / 2v1 situations and still get a kill.

This mech forces the other team to play differently depending on how good the SS is, if he is WTF amazing landing 75%+ shots hes capable of changing the enemy teams play style in a way that technicians used to where they HAD to deal with the tech, now that tech is no longer relevant the SS now fills this role.

You know what's funny, straight damage output, 75% accuracy with a sharpshooter isn't scary at all; I fear far more one of the many other mechs with higher dps potential hitting 75% accuracy...

I think the scary part is that the sharpshooter has HITSCAN which is the main thing. I'm pretty sure the DPS is balanced behind the fact that it's a hitscan weapon. Most of the time the SS will hit you and you won't have the opportunity to retaliate. It's pretty scary when there's one hitting most of it's shots to make 1/2 of a team squishy.

[Nept]

What I constantly see happening: People commenting on the Sharpshooter's ease-of-use , or overestimating their own abilities (especially in CQC) with the mech. They then use this self-serving baseline to argue balance issues.

As I've written before,

Nept, on November 17 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Presently, there are many players - and many community veterans - who believe themselves far more proficient with the SS than they actually are.  They make this mistake because their SS experiences are limited to hiding behind teammates and sniping with far more support than they'd normally receive (against equally-skilled, knowledgeable opponents).  Against high-level players, you've little target acquisition time, and few open sightlines.  These players will use cover - of which there is plenty - to avoid SS fire and rapidly approach.  If you're unable to respond instantly to directional shifts, and aren't hitting 80-100% of your shots, you will not be effective.  There is very little margin for error.

Why that's frustrating: They're providing a false portrayal of the mech's abilities. In reality, there are very, very few good Sharpshooters.

Rei, on December 15 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

You're right, they're very scarce.

That has been the case since I started playing in early Beta. Were the mech as simplistic and easy to use as is often argued, you'd see numerous Sharpshooters at the top-tier level; instead, you've a handful able to hold their own in 1v1 situations.

*Edit* You know all those people posting about how easy it is to use a Scout and who are utterly unable to use Scouts themselves_  It feels a lot like that.

My team comprises some of the top players in the game. I recognize that my experience with certain SS players is limited – too limited to draw conclusions on their abilities. However, I can gain a better appreciation by polling my players. The consensus amongst OmniStone, hestoned, Leonhardt, MagicalPancake, and myself echoes JeffMagnum's earlier opinion:

JeffMagnum, on December 12 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

This entire post is basically Nept bait fyi. Anyway, I'd argue that SS is actually one of the hardest mechs in the game to play well and requires an immense amount of skill to play at a high level compared to other mechs, at least when enemies play intelligently. Sure, you have two hitscan burst weapons, but you also have terrible DPS, awful maneuverability, and no way to hit enemies that aren't in your LOS. Everyone acts like playing SS is mind-numbingly easy, but honestly I've only ever seen two SS players able to play the mech at anywhere near a mastery level--those players are Nept and Climatic.

If you aren't amongst the Sharpshooters in question, that's alright – it's only our opinion, after all. You are more than welcome to join our duels and demonstrate your CQC abilities against good players. Personally, I believe you'll be surprised with the mech's inefficacy against quality pilots. Regardless, please recognize that this isn't an “ego thing”. This is a “game balance thing”. Unless we accurately assess the mech's potential, we risk running it into the ground only because a handful of players use it well. Whether that number is two or four or six, it's extremely low – far lower than we see with other mechs, and far lower than we'd expect to see were the mech the “master duelist” people were claiming it was.

Also, seems some people have forgotten my earlier post:

Nept, on December 12 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Lowest DPS and some of the poorest maneuverability in the game.  Was an over-nerf.

That being said, I'm indifferent so long as they leave the firing mechanics alone. They make things interesting, and I don't want Adhesive fuzzy bunny with them.

Can I use the mech effectively as is_ Absolutely. Can the mech afford a movement increase_ Absolutely. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I apologize that my frustration with these recurrent events led to being more blunt than normal. However, I've been seeing the whole “look at all these amazing SS'ers” since I started playing, and I've yet to encounter them. Getting a bit tiresome.

Edited by Nept, December 15 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[OmniStone]

I think the SSer is in a good position right now. While it is quite capable of handling most mechs with it's ability up(assuming the SSer has perfect aim, and his opponent doesn't decide to grab some cover after getting hit with it), it's mobility and dps w/o powershot are awful.

1V1s: I think a good player should rarely ever die to a SSer in a 1v1. When they do die to SSers, that death could have likely been avoided had they approached the situation correctly or retreated at the right time. When a SSer is in a great spot, you simply don't attempt to take them out in a 1v1. The mech is too slow to make them a real threat when cover is around(b/c they can't chase fast enough to get behind that cover), and most mechs can just kite them if the SSer gets their armor too low in a duel. Also, repair orbs and shields all but negate the advantage of powershot when used appropriately.

Teamplay: This is where the SSer can be a pain. They are best used to take out high-priority targets while sitting back in a safe position. Once you figure out they are there, they aren't too hard to avoid afterwards. They are valuable for zoning and finishing off low health mechs or bursting down techs/a-classes so that other mechs can finish them off quickly.

Overall, I think they are fairly balanced. They dominate a few maps moreso then others, but they also have their maps where they won't be nearly as useful as well. I don't think they are a great 1v1 mech in most circumstances against an intelligent player(note: engaging a SSer on the other side of the highway on prosk is not what I consider an intelligent player). The two big advantages this mech has is being able to dps at any range and the burst damage of it's ability. It's disadvantages are horrid mobility coupled with equally bad dps while powershot is down. I think that they could have a big impact in comp play solely based upon being able to cherry pick targets from longer ranges then other classes can with ease. I think this impact could be lessened with proper communication. As for a mobility buff, I wouldn't even be worried if they got one.

As to the skill level of the SSer, it isn't as easy as people make it out to be. While it is hitscan, it takes near perfection to come out on top against decent players that don't miss shots. You can miss a few shots here or there with it and it becomes a massive problem, rather then me missing with my TOW/GL and still getting rewarded with remote detonation splash damage. I agree with most of what Jeff said on page 1(I don't feel like quoting it).

Edited by OmniStone, December 15 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[Leonhardt]

When you think about it the SS gets the short end of the stick really. It gets low armor, low DPS and slow movement. Isn't there supposed to be a trade off of armor for speed of some kind_

The way I see it the SS is incredibly slow and that is fine as far as forward boosting is concerned. It is does a good job of punishing players that don't keep good positioning, but it could certainly use a small decrease to dodge cool down considering the above. A 1.3-1.35 dodge cool down would not change the fact that an SSer has to hit all of their shots at close range to win against a good opponent and that it has low armor and DPS.

It is my opinion that this change makes SS slightly more approachable for other players, but still keeps it in that sweet spot for damage output and positioning.

[FuryMonster]

I think the main issue atm is powershot. Because powershot is so strong the mech has been nerfed in not only overall damage but speed aswell.

If powershot was toned down to a reasonable number around 20% ( currently being 36 ) other things could be adjusted to let it do more damage. via manueverability or through a slug buff from its current 68 to ( 70 or possibly 72 ) it would allow the mech to do more overall damage and nerf its instant burst. Most people dislike the mech not because its overall potential but because its  1 time burst capabilities ( powershot )

honestly think would you rather have the current "instagib"  powershot. or would you want it toned down so other things can be toned up, so you can see your time and effort spent in the mech shine rather then people saying/crying  WTF POWERSHOT OP or saying your only doing good becuase powershot is stupid.

Edited by FuryMonster, December 16 2013 - 01:09 AM.

[Nept]

Hell, remove powershot for all I care.  Buff the DPS, buff the movement - reward skill and consistency, not ability usage.

[fingerknitter]

Rei, on December 15 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

FuryMonster, on December 15 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Its necessary because it punishes people for bad positioning from extreme distances and does massive damage. ANY team can run it if the person playing SS is good not WTF AMAZING just good. It doesnt require amazing amounts of skill to press powershot and do 36% more damage and blow someone up at half hp. It does take skill to be able to live 1v1 / 2v1 situations and still get a kill.

This mech forces the other team to play differently depending on how good the SS is, if he is WTF amazing landing 75%+ shots hes capable of changing the enemy teams play style in a way that technicians used to where they HAD to deal with the tech, now that tech is no longer relevant the SS now fills this role.

You know what's funny, straight damage output, 75% accuracy with a sharpshooter isn't scary at all; I fear far more one of the many other mechs with higher dps potential hitting 75% accuracy...

I think the scary part is that the sharpshooter has HITSCAN which is the main thing. I'm pretty sure the DPS is balanced behind the fact that it's a hitscan weapon. Most of the time the SS will hit you and you won't have the opportunity to retaliate. It's pretty scary when there's one hitting most of it's shots to make 1/2 of a team squishy.

Hitscan is hardly as scary in a game where the AoE weapons are not severely gimped by limited ammunition; yes it has its place, but that's really only because again, it doesn't overlap with any other mech. Being able to detonate mid flight is nothing to downplay, and neither is the forgiveness of AoE. Hitscan is dichotomous. I've never been in a game and typed into chat "Hey guys, can we not do 2 infiltrators_", but I sure as hell have typed MANY times "Just one SS is enough guys, we do want to win this after all". Its for the reason that the SS does not compete in its role with other mechs, and however poor its damage output is, its simply another angle that is otherwise not being capitalized on. The fact that it relies so heavily on A) Its ability, and On its angle of attack, means that without smoke and mirrors and the feels, yes it occupies a niche all to its own, but it doesn't fill it to the level of execution that other mechs fill theirs.

I think they need to rebalance the ability with the mechs overall effectiveness, and reconsider its dodge cooldown. Draw the mech away from reliance on its ability, and make its angle of attack more of an active (player controlled) skill than a passive one.

[HighCaliber]

Nept, on December 15 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Hell, remove powershot for all I care.  Buff the DPS, buff the movement - reward skill and consistency, not ability usage.

Sounds eerily similar to another mech, what was it called again_ Oh yeah Reaper.

[fingerknitter]

HighCaliber, on December 15 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Nept, on December 15 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Hell, remove powershot for all I care.  Buff the DPS, buff the movement - reward skill and consistency, not ability usage.

Sounds eerily similar to another mech, what was it called again_ Oh yeah Reaper.

I'm surprised that "Reaper" isn't censored by the profanity filter...seeing as they treat it like its a piece of fuzzy bunny!!!

[Exeon]

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

Rei, on December 15 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

FuryMonster, on December 15 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Its necessary because it punishes people for bad positioning from extreme distances and does massive damage. ANY team can run it if the person playing SS is good not WTF AMAZING just good. It doesnt require amazing amounts of skill to press powershot and do 36% more damage and blow someone up at half hp. It does take skill to be able to live 1v1 / 2v1 situations and still get a kill.

This mech forces the other team to play differently depending on how good the SS is, if he is WTF amazing landing 75%+ shots hes capable of changing the enemy teams play style in a way that technicians used to where they HAD to deal with the tech, now that tech is no longer relevant the SS now fills this role.

You know what's funny, straight damage output, 75% accuracy with a sharpshooter isn't scary at all; I fear far more one of the many other mechs with higher dps potential hitting 75% accuracy...

I think the scary part is that the sharpshooter has HITSCAN which is the main thing. I'm pretty sure the DPS is balanced behind the fact that it's a hitscan weapon. Most of the time the SS will hit you and you won't have the opportunity to retaliate. It's pretty scary when there's one hitting most of it's shots to make 1/2 of a team squishy.

Hitscan is hardly as scary in a game where the AoE weapons are not severely gimped by limited ammunition; yes it has its place, but that's really only because again, it doesn't overlap with any other mech. Being able to detonate mid flight is nothing to downplay, and neither is the forgiveness of AoE. Hitscan is dichotomous. I've never been in a game and typed into chat "Hey guys, can we not do 2 infiltrators_", but I sure as hell have typed MANY times "Just one SS is enough guys, we do want to win this after all". Its for the reason that the SS does not compete in its role with other mechs, and however poor its damage output is, its simply another angle that is otherwise not being capitalized on. The fact that it relies so heavily on A) Its ability, and On its angle of attack, means that without smoke and mirrors and the feels, yes it occupies a niche all to its own, but it doesn't fill it to the level of execution that other mechs fill theirs.

I think they need to rebalance the ability with the mechs overall effectiveness, and reconsider its dodge cooldown. Draw the mech away from reliance on its ability, and make its angle of attack more of an active (player controlled) skill than a passive one.

While I agree with you and everyone else on their distaste for the ability I have to say, I think you're quite wrong about a second sharpshooter being a hindrance. Assuming they're both good they're both going to be just as beneficial, especially if they know how to work together. We had to actually limit teams to 1 slug mech in scrims as well as in the CHR on frontline it became a very apparent problem so we limited it on that map specifically, no one really abused them much on any other map.

[fingerknitter]

Exeon, on December 16 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

While I agree with you and everyone else on their distaste for the ability I have to say, I think you're quite wrong about a second sharpshooter being a hindrance. Assuming they're both good they're both going to be just as beneficial, especially if they know how to work together. We had to actually limit teams to 1 slug mech in scrims as well as in the CHR on frontline it became a very apparent problem so we limited it on that map specifically, no one really abused them much on any other map.

Two things:

1) Finding a second Sharpshooter that's going to contribute in meaningful way as a sharpshooter is not easy

2) Good teams are enablers for good Sharpshooters. If you are getting pelted by Sharpshooters, its because the rest of their team is pushing you into an angle that the sharpshooters can work with. The angle that sharpshooters occupy on a team deals LESS damage than the angles of the rest of the team. If a team of 4 mid/cqc mechs can hold at bay 5 or maybe even all six of the enemy team through good positioning, yeah, those 2 sharpshooters are going to feel like acid in a wound but, their success is in their team play. Adding another scout or infiltrator to that team of skillful 4 will most likely be redundant, and hinder the ability of those 4 to operate the way they do. Good teams are enablers for good sharpshooters.

[RedVan]

Nept, on December 15 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Hell, remove powershot for all I care.  Buff the DPS, buff the movement - reward skill and consistency, not ability usage.

Yeah, I still don't use that.  Too much of a hassle to press F.

Edited by RedVan, December 16 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[eth0]

If ss was going to be changed a little, I'd rather not see it become more like a reaper, and vice-versa. Diversification is the magic word. Speedy/mobile long(ish) range should be a niche for the reaper.

If the ss is already good, then what calls for a speed buff_ I do also think that powershot could use a nerf in exchange for a small (if at all) buff to sabot, but ss certainly isn't begging for anything to be changed.

Enjoying all of the discussion on ss strats! Haven't maxed mine and always learning.

[FeralNyte]

I have currently been trying to get better at SS and i can safely say hes strong, in the right hands.
First rule i have with the sharpshooter is never get close to a fight but never stop moving always run around the perimeter of the map. I use the Hawkins mainly because I'm leveling him right now and i dislike how the slug rifle fires. One more level and i can buy and try out the AM Sar (but i think its more suited for reaper.)

I don't have any internals right now, and 2 mk1 items (shield and hologram). My items when i do get around to buying them will definitely be replenisher  because SS is great with ability up(although i don't think its as dependent on that ability as most people think)

My one dislike about the SS (More the Sabot Rifle really) is you cannot hit the side of a barn from 2 feet away unless your zoomed, which feels a little ridiculous.(This is another reason i use hawkins because it can hit things unzoomed.)

My play style is just get damage on anything you can hit, with the damage increase to hawkins although not amazing you can fight mechs that go out of their way to find you. I don't like staying in one area i might stay to get a few shots if a have a good view of a battle going on or i get a kill. Once i get a kill i move on (or I am there too long without seeing anything)

I find SS is strong against All C-mechs when their not in their turret form, and I find A class mechs melt like butter(Just gotta hit yer shots)

Edited by FeralNyte, December 16 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[Rei]

Feral, if you want to hit close, you need to get a feel for how the unscoped sabot shoots. It shoots a little more sideways so you have to compensate. Also don't waste your HC on the AM-Sar. It's worse than the Hawkins in every stat (damage, fire rate, time to overheat, effective range). If you don't like the slug, that's a preference. I like the slug because I'll fire a volley and hit behind a wall to wait for my sabot again.

Edited by Rei, December 16 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[IareDave]

I've had my fair share of experience with the Sharpshooter. I typically top the scoreboards in a decent amount of matches, but when faced with the top tier players, especially skilled A-mechs, I don't do so well. it definitely spikes in learning curve, and in my opinion could use a slight increase in boost speed or dodge cooldown.

Other than that, It is a balanced mech (except when Nept uses it)

[Taerkasten]

FeralNyte, on December 16 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

My one dislike about the SS (More the Sabot Rifle really) is you cannot hit the side of a barn from 2 feet away unless your zoomed, which feels a little ridiculous.(This is another reason i use hawkins because it can hit things unzoomed.)

Yeah, it's something than can be alot unwise sometimes, in the heat of battle you want to hit that sabot shoot, unfortunately without zoom the sabot shoot spread too much even in close distance, but for reduce that little issue is Quickscoping, ill mean, zoom shoot and then back to normal quickly, Slug rifle even with the nerf still is precise without zoom, little problem than you are not doing the same damage than zoomed, the SS it's something like having to Quake 3 Arena Railguns one in each arm.

Still run my Einsehans (SS) with an Machine gun turret and a repair charge, also the precision type pilots are very few and scarce because the mech is not easy, every mech have its dificulty grade. if you have a good team. or an SS allied than understand the tactics and position deployment the enemy team didnt have much chances to reach aa or even recollecting eu.

Overall the mech was broken some time ago, now it's fine, also there maps than like origin than there few spots for attack and weckage it's like in origin in some way, that two maps are more CQB oriented so an Brawler or any other CQB mech are more convenient, Frontline, Baazar, Last Eco are more suited for the SS and reaper.

[CounterlogicMan]

The SS (with slug) I dare say is one of the more balanced mechs in the game. I really enjoy playing it and I can safely say it entirely depends on the pilots ability and overall strategy, as well as the map and the opponents. It may seem OP at lower levels because of its ability to THRASH stationary or predictable targets. However at higher levels id say it fits into its intended role very well. It does rely on its ability heavily but that is the nature of the beast. High burst low dps, don't like that dynamic well...either adjust or maybe it just isn't your cup of tea.

I can't really comment on the balance of AM-SAR and HAWKINS because I generally don't use them, as I find the Slug complements my play style more.

To those that say they have never seen a good SS....well i don't know what to say to that besides when you do....your going to fear the SS for the rest of your days. I'll make sure to give you boys a taste if I see you in game.

Also take away powershot or nerf it more_ lolwutrusrsgtfo_

Edited by CounterlogicMan, December 24 2013 - 10:41 AM.